#1
So, I'm fucking around with chords while learning Master of Puppets (I'm normally Drop B, so E is really weird to me). I like the resonance that comes from adding an octave to a chord, For example, strumming the bottom string when playing E minor.

e|-0----------------------------------------
b|-0----------------------------------------
g|-0---------------------------------------
d|-2----------------------------------------
a|-2----------------------------------------
e|-0----------------------------------------

Or A minor

e|-0----------------------------------------
b|-1----------------------------------------
g|-0---------------------------------------
d|-2----------------------------------------
a|-2----------------------------------------
e|-0----------------------------------------

Or C Major

e|-0----------------------------------------
b|-1----------------------------------------
g|-0---------------------------------------
d|-2----------------------------------------
a|-3----------------------------------------
e|-0----------------------------------------


Even power chords:

e|------------------------------------------
b|------------------------------------------
g|------------------------------------------
d|-2----------------------------------------
a|-2----------------------------------------
e|-0----------------------------------------

e|------------------------------------------
b|------------------------------------------
g|-4---------------------------------------
d|-4----------------------------------------
a|-2----------------------------------------
e|------------------------------------------

hell, even dissonant octaves while we're at it!
(may not be right, I forget how I did this one)

e|-7----------------------------------------
b|-----------------------------------------
g|-4----------------------------------------
d|-3----------------------------------------
a|-----------------------------------------
e|-1----------------------------------------

I call these chords "echo chords". Not exactly the definition, but that's fine. But my point is: what's the actual name for a chord that contains the octave of the root note (that is, the chord plus the root note an octave higher)?
#2
It doesn't require a different name because it's the same chord - you are just doubling the root (the same also applies to doubling any other chord tone or changing the order of the notes). They are just different voicings of the same chord.
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Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Aug 9, 2016,
#3
Quote by toateridax2010
So, I'm fucking around with chords while learning Master of Puppets (I'm normally Drop B, so E is really weird to me). I like the resonance that comes from adding an octave to a chord, For example, strumming the bottom string when playing E minor.

e|-0----------------------------------------
b|-0----------------------------------------
g|-0---------------------------------------
d|-2----------------------------------------
a|-2----------------------------------------
e|-0----------------------------------------
That's just a normal Em chord - the way everyone plays it. It happens to have three E's in it (two octaves between bottom and top).
Quote by toateridax2010

Or A minor

e|-0----------------------------------------
b|-1----------------------------------------
g|-0---------------------------------------
d|-2----------------------------------------
a|-2----------------------------------------
e|-0----------------------------------------
I'm guessing that's a typo, and you mean 0-0-2-2-1-0. Strictly speaking, you could call that "Am/E", indicating that E is the bass note. The name for that - when you put the 5th of the chord in the bass - is "2nd inversion". But if you're playing in a band, just strumming that chord, it's really just "Am". Adding the bottom E has a negligible effect, at least if you also have a bass player playing A below that.
Quote by toateridax2010

Or C Major

e|-0----------------------------------------
b|-1----------------------------------------
g|-0---------------------------------------
d|-2----------------------------------------
a|-3----------------------------------------
e|-0----------------------------------------
This is a little different, because in this case the bottom E is the 3rd of the chord, meaning it's "in 1st inversion" (C/E). This has a more noticeable effect when you strum the chord, and sounds weirder than an Am or A with E on the bottom. I don't think you'd want to strum it for any length of time with that low E audible. But it's a common chord to play as a transition to F (probably). You hear it in the Kings Of Leon's "Use Somebody" which runs C - C/E - F. (So the bass is C-E-F).
Quote by toateridax2010

Even power chords:

e|------------------------------------------
b|------------------------------------------
g|------------------------------------------
d|-2----------------------------------------
a|-2----------------------------------------
e|-0----------------------------------------

e|------------------------------------------
b|------------------------------------------
g|-4---------------------------------------
d|-4----------------------------------------
a|-2----------------------------------------
e|------------------------------------------
They're still just power chords, and it's common to double the root in power chords. It makes them more - er - powerful .
Quote by toateridax2010

hell, even dissonant octaves while we're at it!
(may not be right, I forget how I did this one)

e|-7----------------------------------------
b|-----------------------------------------
g|-4----------------------------------------
d|-3----------------------------------------
a|-----------------------------------------
e|-1----------------------------------------
Er, your hand will actually stretch that far...?? I guess I'd call that a doubled tritone, but I just made that up . You have octave Fs, with octave B's above. The intervals are octave-tritone-octave, with a compound tritone between the low F and high B. But the F-B tritone is still the essential element - doubling the octaves makes no difference to the identify of the chord (such as it is, and it isn't really a chord anyway).
Quote by toateridax2010

I call these chords "echo chords". Not exactly the definition, but that's fine. But my point is: what's the actual name for a chord that contains the octave of the root note (that is, the chord plus the root note an octave higher)?
As MM says, doubling octaves makes no difference to the name of the chord - because it doesn't affect its identity or function, nor its sound, significantly.
But putting a note other than the root on the bottom of the chord does affect its sound, and you can amend the name accordingly - using a slash chord symbol, or an inversion name.
Last edited by jongtr at Aug 10, 2016,
#4
You can repeat any of the chord pitches in different octaves, and the chord doesn't change. For example, on a piano, you and a couple of friends could play all the C's and G's, (so power chord) and then just add one E (anywhere) or one Eb (anywhere), and you have a major or minor triad.

Then you need to distinguish between the ROOT of the chord, versus the BASS pitch in the chord. When the bass pitch and the root are different, you have an inversion of the chord. For major and minor triads, this is easy to figure out.

Looking at any string pair apart from G,B ... if you see a shape where the pitch on the upper string is 2 frets higher than a pitch on the lower string, then the lower pitch is the root.

e|------------------------------------------
b|------------------------------------------
g|------------------------------------------
d|-2----------------------------------------
a|-2----------------------------------------
e|-0----------------------------------------

Above, the 0 and 2 and the e and a strings is just such a shape. So E is the root (and of course the whole chord could be slid along the strings).

On the G,B pair, the upper string pitch would be 3 frets higher. E.g

e|-3----------------------------------------
b|-3----------------------------------------
g|-0----------------------------------------
d|------------------------------------------
a|------------------------------------------
e|-----------------------------------------

Above, 0,3 on g,b is such a shape. So, G is the root

If neither of these shapes are present in the chord, you'll often come across where a shape on a string pair are both at the same fret. (for all pairs other than G,B) So...

e|------------------------------------------
b|------------------------------------------
g|-1-----------------------------------------
d|-2----------------------------------------
a|-2---------------------------------------
e|------------------------------------------

In this case, the upper pitch of the pair is the root, So, above, we have 2,2 on a,d. The root is the upper pitch, the A on the d string. On the G'B string pair, this shape changes so the upper pitch is one fret higher than the lower pitch. So

e|-2----------------------------------------
b|-3---------------------------------------
g|-2-----------------------------------------
d|-----------------------------------------
a|-------------------------------------------
e|------------------------------------------

Here, the 2,3 on g,b is an example. The upper pitch is the root (D on the B string).

The last two exampes are both inversions of a major triad ... the root is not in the bass of the chord.
Last edited by jerrykramskoy at Aug 10, 2016,
#5
^ we're still in disagreement on thirds first vs fifths first in determining chord roots. Thirds first is traditional.

I'd call the shapes you made E power "chord", Em7 (shell), E (B bass), D (A bass). However, it's not just the guitar that determines the nature of the chord, anyways.
#6
NeoMvsEu I think we're agreeing Neo. I'd call the above chords E power, G, E with B in bass. D with A in bass. It's only the G I disagree with you on.

And yes, of course, intervals and chords are independent of instrument (assuming the instrument can create intervals). You and I both know that.

Just trying to show the OP an easy way to viusalise the chord root based on the post above. When you get a mix of 3rds (maj or min) and 4ths or 5ths, then using the 3rd to identify the root is not as obvious, and more to the point, misleading. e,g

e|------------------------------------------
b|------------------------------------------
g|-0-----------------------------------------
d|-2----------------------------------------
a|-2---------------------------------------
e|-3-----------------------------------------

There's two thirds there, but its the lower pitch of the upper b3 that is the overall root. But just spotting the 4th (on a and d) is very easy visually, and the root is the upper of these. And aurally, that 4th overrules the 3rds present as well, in terms of which pitch stands out the most as the root.
Last edited by jerrykramskoy at Aug 10, 2016,
#7
jerrykramskoy

G-B-E is 1-3-6 (unison, third, sixth from bass)

Inverting a few times
B-E-G is 1-4-6
E-G-B is 1-3-5. This is simplest, a stack of thirds that makes a (minor) third and a (perfect) fifth. It's just in first inversion (third in bass). And as for notes that stand out, I argue that bass G (fret 3, low E) and E (fret 2, D) are the ones that stand out.

It has nothing to do with fourths and fifths as a foundation. Simply put, harmony was based on thirds (tertian harmony), and it wasn't until later that quartal (fourths), quintal (fifths), and secundal (seconds - tone clusters) harmony developed.

I'd be careful with the words "root" and "bass" too.

Root of chord: basis of the harmony, "strong" note in the chord
Bass of chord: lowest note in the harmony
#8
NeoMvsEu
Neo ... I know 100% about tertian harmony, honest! (And quartal, and ...) As you say the other harmoniesd came later, but the problem with tertian harmony is it can't explain a load of other chord types, and chord rooting of those. That is where 5ths, etc can help. But the same concepts that apply there directly apply back to tertian harmony as well.

BTW: I'm not knocking tertian harmony at all. It works amazingly well, and is extremely satisyfying to write with and listen to.

I'm just trying to give some tips to people not that acquainted with it, to be able to quickly recognise roots, visually.

I thought I had been careful on distinction between bass and root, but ... please correct if I have made a mistake ... don't want to misinform.
Last edited by jerrykramskoy at Aug 12, 2016,
#9
jerrykramskoy

I get the point of using fifths, but I also feel like you've used it to the point where it supercedes thirds when you hear things. We've had this discussion before, last year in fact (time passes so quickly haha), and come up with widely different analyses sans context, particularly with shell voicings.

(Reread, I think we're good on bass and root )
#10
Quote by NeoMvsEu
^ we're still in disagreement on thirds first vs fifths first in determining chord roots. Thirds first is traditional.
I always thought it was 5ths myself, acoustically at least. But I'm happy to be corrected . Just seeking clarification on the following...
Quote by NeoMvsEu

I'd call the shapes you made E power "chord"
So, in the absence of any 3rds, we refer to 5ths?
Quote by NeoMvsEu

Em7 (shell),
Why? Surely that's only if an E bass is played, or some other context determines it? Otherwise, G-D-G is a G power chord, for the same reason you call E-B-E an E power chord? Why the distinction?
Quote by NeoMvsEu
However, it's not just the guitar that determines the nature of the chord, anyways.
Well, of course, if other instruments are present. (I don't suppose jerry would disagree there.)
#11
Baroque-19th century harmony was all tertian harmony.

Triads are chords based on stacked thirds (1-3-5 with certain alterations). The basic building block was thirds.

A fifth is made by stacking two thirds together, so yes to the fifths, but that's secondary to thirds.

E-G-D is 1-b3-X-7 and can be made simply by stacking thirds. He changed the chord diagrams after the fact (or, more likely the case, something was misread, because I swore I saw xx2033 somewhere.)
#12
NeoMvsEu
Neo ... I'd never be that dishonourable!!

e|------------------------------------------
b|------------------------------------------
d|-2----------------------------------------
g|-0-----------------------------------------
e|-3-----------------------------------------
a|-2---------------------------------------

:-)

But no I didn't change anything, honest.

jongtr: yes, of course, with other instruments involved sure the context may change, and what would have stood out as a root based on its own interval or chord voicing on one instrument may well get overruled overall.

Here's an interesting example where the 5th makes the difference

e|-2-----2-------2----------------------------
b|-2--------------2---------------------------
g|-2-----2-------2----------------------------
d|-0-----0-------0----------------------------
a|----------------------------------------------
e|--------2-------2---------------------------

left chord: Dmaj7
middle chord: D/F#
right chord: F#m with b6 ... why ... because the 5th from the bass F# to the C# on 2nd string wins over the 5th from open D to A on g string. Lowest 5th wins, and you can hear it clearly.

Anyways, each person can make up their own mind whether applying interval root strengths works or not. For me, it works. And is needed when not using chords built on tertian harmony.

For Neo, it doesn't and he's absolutely correct that a 5th is a consequence of stacking thirds. And he absolutely knows what he's talking about.
Last edited by jerrykramskoy at Aug 13, 2016,
#13
Quote by jerrykramskoy
NeoMvsEu
Neo ... I'd never be that dishonourable!!

e|------------------------------------------
b|------------------------------------------
d|-2----------------------------------------
g|-0-----------------------------------------
e|-3-----------------------------------------
a|-2---------------------------------------

:-)

But no I didn't change anything, honest.

jongtr: yes, of course, with other instruments involved sure the context may change, and what would have stood out as a root based on its own interval or chord voicing on one instrument may well get overruled overall.

Here's an interesting example where the 5th makes the difference

e|-2-----2-------2----------------------------
b|-2--------------2---------------------------
g|-2-----2-------2----------------------------
d|-0-----0-------0----------------------------
a|----------------------------------------------
e|--------2-------2---------------------------

left chord: Dmaj7
middle chord: D/F#
right chord: F#m with b6 ... why ... because the 5th from the bass F# to the C# on 2nd string wins over the 5th from open D to A on g string. Lowest 5th wins, and you can hear it clearly.

Anyways, each person canmake up their own mind whether applying interal root strengths works or not. For me, it works. For Neo, it doesn't and he's absolutely correct that a 5th is a consequence of stacing thirds.


Haha that's why I added the parenthetical (and much more probable case) after rereading a few times ^^
Is chord 1 supposed to be D7/F# or Gadd9 with flipped strings? ;D

I don't ever see the b6 as a stable tone in 2x0222, though. It's either is a maj7 chord with third in the bass or is a tone waiting resolution. (I'm a girl also, btw )
#15
Quote by jerrykramskoy
NeoMvsEu Ms.Neo, my humblest apologies for my gender mistake. :-( Sorry!
Apology accepted
#16
Quote by jerrykramskoy
right chord: F#m with b6

Oh man, you should see the discussion we (Neo and I) had about having b6's in chords. I'm afraid I have no choice now but to see that chord as Dmaj7/F# !

Quote by NeoMvsEu
Is chord 1 supposed to be D7/F# or Gadd9 with flipped strings? ;D

I think it's a puzzle, you have to put the strings in correct order ...
#17
NSpen1
I'm glad she's converted you! I'll stick to my guns!

E.g. this voicing makes it much more apparent that F# is the root (note even in last chord, where the b7 is in the bass, F# stands out).

F# - add b6, Esus->E, Dmaj7#11, Asus->A, F# - add b6

e: ---------------------------------10p9----
b: 10 ----10p9---- 9-----------10------10
g: 7 ---- 9--------- 11-----------9--------7
d: 11---- 9------ ---11-------------------11
a: 9 ---- 11-----------------------0--------9
e: --------0----------10 --------------------0


As for the other chord ... it was me having fun with Neo ... but I love the idea of chord puzzles. That's brilliant.
Last edited by jerrykramskoy at Aug 14, 2016,
#18
The first one is definitely still a Dmaj7, with the Dmaj7/F# E Dmaj7#11 stuff, it's basically the oppose of this common idiom:
e|---3-8-------------
B|-1-3-5-------------
G|-0-4-5-------------
D|-2-5-5-------------
A|-3-5-7-------------
E|-------------------

The third one sounds more E-rooted, like E13sus4, and with the preceding A major, it would make sense as either IV-I or I-V.

Attaching a gp5:
- The first part is the only case I could hear a minor with a b6, but it's highly dissonant, and I'd want to resolve it right away. I wouldn't call it a chord tone.
- The second part if an excerpt from Satch (which I was discussing with NSpen1, based on original transcription). Same idea (in A minor, however). But pedal notes happen so often that xx7968 to xx7555 is just Fmaj7/A to Am. Yes, it prolongs the A minor harmony, but no, it's not an A minor chord in and of itself. Same idea with John Lennon's "Imagine", The Lumineers' "Ho Hey", etc.

Chord puzzles
Attachments:
makeshifting.gp5
#19
NeoMvsEu Your ears hear rhe 1st chord of my example with D as the root? But just as it does to you, if that's the case, the root absolutely sounds like F# to mine ... which is interesting in itself. We're perceiving the same sound differently. Never mind theory.

For me. if I put a D in the bass, the D wins 100%. But if I add an F# an octave lower, that F# wins hands down.

Interesting!
#20
The bass is moving down, but again, play the C-G/D-C/E thing I wrote above. What you wrote is basically the opposite way and with extended harmony to my ears.

Thirds stack first again.