#1
I have an opportunity to buy a mint JVM 210h for $800 and a 1960a cab in pretty good condition for 500. These seem like pretty great prices to me especially considering that they are being shipped. The head is from 2007 and the cab from 2002. I just bought a brand new dsl100h and a mx412 cab before I saw the ad online, but I can still take them back to guitar center. Thoughts?
#2
4x12s these days are going for $175-200, used, with speakers (depending, of course, on the speakers inside). There's nothing magical about a 1960a in terms of wood or construction that makes them worth more. Open up a line of 4x12s with different brand names and you'll find pretty much the same construction inside, with only the most minor of differences.

OTOH, if the JVM and 1960a has always been your dream rig, get that other stuff back to guitar denter.
#3
they're being shipped as in you won't be able to try them before buying? And you already have a dsl100?

Pass.
#4
Quote by dspellman
4x12s these days are going for $175-200, used, with speakers (depending, of course, on the speakers inside). There's nothing magical about a 1960a in terms of wood or construction that makes them worth more. Open up a line of 4x12s with different brand names and you'll find pretty much the same construction inside, with only the most minor of differences.

OTOH, if the JVM and 1960a has always been your dream rig, get that other stuff back to guitar denter.


Isn't the 1960 made with birch and the mx412 with mdf? I heard that the mdf muffles the sound more and the birch resonates to sound better. I ended up ordering both from reverb.com, coming Monday and Tuesday so I can compare. I can ship them back if I want. I paid 500 for the cab. It was in perfect condition except for a small, dime sized dent by the handle. It is also a bit newer (2002) than most of the cabs from the 200-400 price range.
#5
To be honest, the JVMs do better with V30s than T75s (which 1960s are loaded with). Save yourself the trouble and find a Mesa Rectifier cab used. You'll be happier.

Quote by wellmandellie
Isn't the 1960 made with birch and the mx412 with mdf? I heard that the mdf muffles the sound more and the birch resonates to sound better. I ended up ordering both from reverb.com, coming Monday and Tuesday so I can compare. I can ship them back if I want. I paid 500 for the cab. It was in perfect condition except for a small, dime sized dent by the handle. It is also a bit newer (2002) than most of the cabs from the 200-400 price range.

The 1960 is birch ply except for the part the speakers are mounted on IIRC.
Current Gear:
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Adam S3A monitors
Quote by Anonden
You CAN play anything with anything....but some guitars sound right for some things, and not for others. Single coils sound retarded for metal, though those who are apeshit about harpsichord probably beg to differ.
Last edited by oneblackened at Aug 17, 2016,
#6
Quote by wellmandellie
Isn't the 1960 made with birch and the mx412 with mdf? I heard that the mdf muffles the sound more and the birch resonates to sound better. I ended up ordering both from reverb.com, coming Monday and Tuesday so I can compare. I can ship them back if I want. I paid 500 for the cab. It was in perfect condition except for a small, dime sized dent by the handle. It is also a bit newer (2002) than most of the cabs from the 200-400 price range.
#7
Quote by wellmandellie
Isn't the 1960 made with birch and the mx412 with mdf? I heard that the mdf muffles the sound more and the birch resonates to sound better. I ended up ordering both from reverb.com, coming Monday and Tuesday so I can compare. I can ship them back if I want. I paid 500 for the cab. It was in perfect condition except for a small, dime sized dent by the handle. It is also a bit newer (2002) than most of the cabs from the 200-400 price range.


"I heard" is how a lot of Internet Myths keep rolling.

Birch doesn't "resonate to sound better," and it isn't meant to. Nor does MDF "muffle the sound more." Ideally, you don't want the cabinet structure to resonate at all. It's not like an acoustic guitar. In fact, the big "hog leg" brace on the inside of every 4x12 is there to remove an audible and annoying resonance due to the unbroken size of the rear panel on a 4x12. MDF is actually a very good speaker enclosure material (used in a lot of very high end home theater systems), and if you're not going to move the cabinet around a lot, it's just fine. For gigging cabinets, however, birch is a better material because it's lighter, stronger, more impact resistant and more resistant to moisture.

A lot of Marshall cabinets have MDF baffles (where the speaker mounts) with the other five sides made of birch for durability. The $175-200 cabinets I mentioned are actually fairly recent here in LA, where players seem to be jettisoning them in favor of smaller cabinets. I have five that haven't left storage in years.
#8
MDF is ideal when you want the cab to interact with the speakers as little as possible. This is the case in studio monitors and hi-fi systems (some companies like Focal and KRK use cast aluminum, ABS plastic, and other materials too)

Birch ply is used in guitar cabs because A.) It's way more durable than MDF, and B.) it's got resonance that we as guitarists actually *like*.

So, contrary to popular belief: MDF will actually make for a brighter cabinet all things otherwise being equal.
Current Gear:
LTD MH-400 with Gotoh GE1996T (EMG 85/60)
PRS SE Custom 24 (Suhr SSH+/SSV)
Ibanez RG3120 Prestige (Dimarzio Titans)
Squier Vintage Modified 70s Jazz V
Audient iD22 interface
Peavey Revalver 4, UAD Friedman BE100/DS40
Adam S3A monitors
Quote by Anonden
You CAN play anything with anything....but some guitars sound right for some things, and not for others. Single coils sound retarded for metal, though those who are apeshit about harpsichord probably beg to differ.
Last edited by oneblackened at Aug 18, 2016,
#9
i prefer the DSL to the JVM shit.

as far as the cab goes, its as good as the speaker(s) are in it. T75's are fine.
WTLT 2014 GG&A

Quote by andersondb7
alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



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#10
Quote by oneblackened

Birch ply is used in guitar cabs because ... B.) it's got resonance that we as guitarists actually *like*.


There's really no basis for that. At all.

It's like the guy who took all the finish off his original '59 burst because he was sure that any finish at all meant that his wood couldn't breathe.
He later admitted that there really wasn't a positive outcome there, but he was too embarrassed to let everyone know that he was an idiot.

One, a well designed birch ply cabinet doesn't have "resonance" and Two, cabinet resonances, when they do occur, are usually uncontrolled and annoying. I'm not sure where this "resonance" thing started with cabinets, but it's bolshoi. They may vibrate a bit now and again, but not at audible frequencies and not at output volumes that you could hear over (or even under) the speakers' output. Chalk this one up to unicorn farts and fairy dust.
#11
Quote by dspellman
There's really no basis for that. At all.

It's like the guy who took all the finish off his original '59 burst because he was sure that any finish at all meant that his wood couldn't breathe.
He later admitted that there really wasn't a positive outcome there, but he was too embarrassed to let everyone know that he was an idiot.

One, a well designed birch ply cabinet doesn't have "resonance" and Two, cabinet resonances, when they do occur, are usually uncontrolled and annoying. I'm not sure where this "resonance" thing started with cabinets, but it's bolshoi. They may vibrate a bit now and again, but not at audible frequencies and not at output volumes that you could hear over (or even under) the speakers' output. Chalk this one up to unicorn farts and fairy dust.


Ok then, What's the difference besides the speakers between a $200 line 6 cab and a $3000 Marshall cab? Elf snot and leprechaun tears?
#12
Quote by wellmandellie
Ok then, What's the difference besides the speakers between a $200 line 6 cab and a $3000 Marshall cab? Elf snot and leprechaun tears?


Already answered.

Quote by dspellman
For gigging cabinets, however, birch is a better material because it's lighter, stronger, more impact resistant and more resistant to moisture.


Although he forgot the nameplate cost...

Also, $3000? Nah.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”
Charles Darwin
Last edited by Arby911 at Aug 18, 2016,
#13
Quote by dspellman
There's really no basis for that. At all.

One, a well designed birch ply cabinet doesn't have "resonance" and Two, cabinet resonances, when they do occur, are usually uncontrolled and annoying. I'm not sure where this "resonance" thing started with cabinets, but it's bolshoi. They may vibrate a bit now and again, but not at audible frequencies and not at output volumes that you could hear over (or even under) the speakers' output. Chalk this one up to unicorn farts and fairy dust.


Well, dude, guitar cabinets aren't exactly designed to not resonate. If they were they'd be using MDF instead of birch ply and they'd be filled with foam to kill any internal cabinet reflections. You know, like hi-fi speakers or studio monitors.

The resonances do affect the speakers by way of phasing and comb filtering AND by way of internal early reflections - and as we know, different materials reflect sound differently.

Why else would otherwise identical cabinets made of different materials sound different? Because they do, you know. Older 1960s that are all birch sound different from modern ones that have quite a bit of MDF in them.

Quote by trashedlostfdup
i prefer the DSL to the JVM shit.

as far as the cab goes, its as good as the speaker(s) are in it. T75's are fine.


I like the JVM for modern metal stuff. It's Marshall's take on an ENGL or a Mesa. With a couple mods it does the classic marshall sound pretty well too. I just can't agree with you on the T75s working well with it. It's already scooped and bright and the last thing that amp needs is a scooped and bright speaker.
Current Gear:
LTD MH-400 with Gotoh GE1996T (EMG 85/60)
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Ibanez RG3120 Prestige (Dimarzio Titans)
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Audient iD22 interface
Peavey Revalver 4, UAD Friedman BE100/DS40
Adam S3A monitors
Quote by Anonden
You CAN play anything with anything....but some guitars sound right for some things, and not for others. Single coils sound retarded for metal, though those who are apeshit about harpsichord probably beg to differ.
Last edited by oneblackened at Aug 18, 2016,
#14
Quote by oneblackened
Well, dude, guitar cabinets aren't exactly designed to not resonate. If they were they'd be using MDF instead of birch ply and they'd be filled with foam to kill any internal cabinet reflections. You know, like hi-fi speakers or studio monitors.

The resonances do affect the speakers by way of phasing and comb filtering AND by way of internal early reflections - and as we know, different materials reflect sound differently.

Why else would otherwise identical cabinets made of different materials sound different? Because they do, you know. Older 1960s that are all birch sound different from modern ones that have quite a bit of MDF in them.


I like the JVM for modern metal stuff. It's Marshall's take on an ENGL or a Mesa. With a couple mods it does the classic marshall sound pretty well too. I just can't agree with you on the T75s working well with it. It's already scooped and bright and the last thing that amp needs is a scooped and bright speaker.


i intended to mean that for the DSL. i haven't tried different speakers with the JVM that i know of, but DSL's go well with T75's IMHO.
WTLT 2014 GG&A

Quote by andersondb7
alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



****** NEW NEW NEW!
2017-07-07 2017-07-07 Update and a Chat On Noise Constraints *** NEW FRIDAY 7/7
2017-04-13 RUN AWAY from COMPUTERS!!! TCE? RANT ALERT!!!
2017-03-02 - Guitar Philosophy 1001- Be Prepared For the Situation (Thursday 2017-03-02)
2017-02-21 How to Hot-Rod the Hell of your Stratocaster for $50! (Tuesday 2017-2-21)
Resentments and Rambling from a Guitar Junkie
---> http://trashedengineering.blogspot.com/
#15
Quote by trashedlostfdup
i intended to mean that for the DSL. i haven't tried different speakers with the JVM that i know of, but DSL's go well with T75's IMHO.


Okay, fair. The DSL does like T75s IME, too.
Current Gear:
LTD MH-400 with Gotoh GE1996T (EMG 85/60)
PRS SE Custom 24 (Suhr SSH+/SSV)
Ibanez RG3120 Prestige (Dimarzio Titans)
Squier Vintage Modified 70s Jazz V
Audient iD22 interface
Peavey Revalver 4, UAD Friedman BE100/DS40
Adam S3A monitors
Quote by Anonden
You CAN play anything with anything....but some guitars sound right for some things, and not for others. Single coils sound retarded for metal, though those who are apeshit about harpsichord probably beg to differ.
#16
Quote by oneblackened

I like the JVM for modern metal stuff. It's Marshall's take on an ENGL or a Mesa. With a couple mods it does the classic marshall sound pretty well too. I just can't agree with you on the T75s working well with it. It's already scooped and bright and the last thing that amp needs is a scooped and bright speaker.


What kind of mods could I do? I haven't gotten it yet but I'm looking for thick and sparkly cleans with sharp OD tones. Also, are there any speakers you think I could mix with the t-75's? They're expensive but I could probably find two that I could afford used maybe, perhaps hellatone 60's? I play mostly ACDC, GNR, Fuel, Boston, and some Skynyrd.
Last edited by wellmandellie at Aug 19, 2016,
#17
Quote by oneblackened
Well, dude, guitar cabinets aren't exactly designed to not resonate. If they were they'd be using MDF instead of birch ply and they'd be filled with foam to kill any internal cabinet reflections. You know, like hi-fi speakers or studio monitors.

The resonances do affect the speakers by way of phasing and comb filtering AND by way of internal early reflections - and as we know, different materials reflect sound differently.


Well, dude, most guitar cabinets weren't designed.
They were tacked together in the '60's to surround enough speakers to accommodate the power output of whatever amp was going to be on top of the box. No science was involved.

For the most part, resonances aren't (and shouldn't be) a part of the output of a guitar cabinet, nor are the ones that do exist repeatable or desirable or even necessarily audlble. I realize you've run into the words "phasing and comb filtering and internal early reflections" before, but to quote Princess Bride, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

If you can show what part of the guitar spectrum that guitar speakers reproduce (figure 100Hz to about 4500Hz on average) are enhanced by a 3/4" birch ply box, I'd very much like to see it.
#18
Quote by wellmandellie
What kind of mods could I do? I haven't gotten it yet but I'm looking for thick and sparkly cleans with sharp OD tones. Also, are there any speakers you think I could mix with the t-75's? They're expensive but I could probably find two that I could afford used maybe, perhaps hellatone 60's? I play mostly ACDC, GNR, Fuel, Boston, and some Skynyrd.


I'm not an expert on the JVM by any means but with those tones I'm thinking the DSL or a Peavey Classic 30. Get a tubescreamer and you should be about done.
Guitars:
Jackson Kelly KE3 - MIJ (Distortion/Jazz)
Jackson DKMGT Dinky (EMG 81/85)
ESP E-II Eclipse Custom (JB/'59)
ESP LTD EC-1001FR (EMG 81/60)
Fender MIM Strat

Amps:
Mesa/Boogie Dual Rectifier Roadster 212
Laney IronHeart IRT-Studio
Peavey Vypyr 30
Peavey ReValver Amp Sims
TOOOO many T.C. Electronic Pedals. . .
#19
Okay, let's talk acoustics for a second, shall we?

Quote by dspellman
Well, dude, most guitar cabinets weren't designed.
That's for damn sure.

For the most part, resonances aren't (and shouldn't be) a part of the output of a guitar cabinet, nor are the ones that do exist repeatable or desirable or even necessarily audlble. I realize you've run into the words "phasing and comb filtering and internal early reflections" before, but to quote Princess Bride, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Thanks for assuming I have no idea what I'm talking about, greatly appreciated. I took a few classes on acoustics and speaker design. Surely you know that cabinet dimensions affect the sound? That's all of that coming into play. Also, if cabinets don't resonate then how the hell do you explain bass reflex ports? That's the whole point of a port. Of course, you don't exactly see many ported guitar cabs - though they do exist. AS far as internal reflections: have you ever noticed that speaker cabinets that aren't guitar cabs are usually filled with some kind of acoustic foam to cut that down? The fact that guitar cabs *don't* have that makes them oddities in the speaker world.

The resonances of the cabinet are absolutely audible. The ones that make much of a difference in a cabinet are somewhat controlled by stiffening and bracing. Birch ply is less stiff and is about 25% less dense than MDF, and it has 3 axes that it flexes on (unlike MDF, which doesn't really have *any*). Given the same bracing, the birch ply will resonate quite a bit more in the audible spectrum and have more of an effect on the entire cabinet's output.


If you can show what part of the guitar spectrum that guitar speakers reproduce (figure 100Hz to about 4500Hz on average) are enhanced by a 3/4" birch ply box, I'd very much like to see it.
It's not necessarily enhanced. It's just different. Lower frequencies, usually in the 200-350Hz range (in my experience) tend to have a bit more "bloom" in birch ply cabs compared to MDF cabs which are a bit stiffer sounding. Usually the stiffer low mid range/high bass response is a good thing (you want that when you want the cabinet to have as little effect on the driver output as possible), but guitarists are weird. We are used to the cabinet having a huge effect on the speakers.
Current Gear:
LTD MH-400 with Gotoh GE1996T (EMG 85/60)
PRS SE Custom 24 (Suhr SSH+/SSV)
Ibanez RG3120 Prestige (Dimarzio Titans)
Squier Vintage Modified 70s Jazz V
Audient iD22 interface
Peavey Revalver 4, UAD Friedman BE100/DS40
Adam S3A monitors
Quote by Anonden
You CAN play anything with anything....but some guitars sound right for some things, and not for others. Single coils sound retarded for metal, though those who are apeshit about harpsichord probably beg to differ.
#21
Quote by wellmandellie
So back to my question, do you think Hellatone 60's would mix well with the t75's?


Are Hellatone 60s broken in V30s?
Current Gear:
LTD MH-400 with Gotoh GE1996T (EMG 85/60)
PRS SE Custom 24 (Suhr SSH+/SSV)
Ibanez RG3120 Prestige (Dimarzio Titans)
Squier Vintage Modified 70s Jazz V
Audient iD22 interface
Peavey Revalver 4, UAD Friedman BE100/DS40
Adam S3A monitors
Quote by Anonden
You CAN play anything with anything....but some guitars sound right for some things, and not for others. Single coils sound retarded for metal, though those who are apeshit about harpsichord probably beg to differ.
#23
Quote by oneblackened
Okay, let's talk acoustics for a second, shall we?

That's for damn sure.

Thanks for assuming I have no idea what I'm talking about, greatly appreciated. I took a few classes on acoustics and speaker design. Surely you know that cabinet dimensions affect the sound? That's all of that coming into play. Also, if cabinets don't resonate then how the hell do you explain bass reflex ports? That's the whole point of a port. Of course, you don't exactly see many ported guitar cabs - though they do exist. AS far as internal reflections: have you ever noticed that speaker cabinets that aren't guitar cabs are usually filled with some kind of acoustic foam to cut that down? The fact that guitar cabs *don't* have that makes them oddities in the speaker world.

The resonances of the cabinet are absolutely audible. The ones that make much of a difference in a cabinet are somewhat controlled by stiffening and bracing. Birch ply is less stiff and is about 25% less dense than MDF, and it has 3 axes that it flexes on (unlike MDF, which doesn't really have *any*). Given the same bracing, the birch ply will resonate quite a bit more in the audible spectrum and have more of an effect on the entire cabinet's output.

It's not necessarily enhanced. It's just different. Lower frequencies, usually in the 200-350Hz range (in my experience) tend to have a bit more "bloom" in birch ply cabs compared to MDF cabs which are a bit stiffer sounding. Usually the stiffer low mid range/high bass response is a good thing (you want that when you want the cabinet to have as little effect on the driver output as possible), but guitarists are weird. We are used to the cabinet having a huge effect on the speakers.


Very little in the above is correct.
Speaker cabinet size will affect the efficiency of a woofer. It has very little effect on a speaker that reproduces mostly mids or highs. I think you may want to take this discussion to Dave Green and a few of the other cabinet designers on TalkBass. Sort of a master class in design from those folks.
Last edited by dspellman at Aug 21, 2016,
#24
Quote by wellmandellie
yes


V30s and T75s in an X pattern is pretty classic.

@DSpellman: whatever, dude, it's not that important.
Current Gear:
LTD MH-400 with Gotoh GE1996T (EMG 85/60)
PRS SE Custom 24 (Suhr SSH+/SSV)
Ibanez RG3120 Prestige (Dimarzio Titans)
Squier Vintage Modified 70s Jazz V
Audient iD22 interface
Peavey Revalver 4, UAD Friedman BE100/DS40
Adam S3A monitors
Quote by Anonden
You CAN play anything with anything....but some guitars sound right for some things, and not for others. Single coils sound retarded for metal, though those who are apeshit about harpsichord probably beg to differ.