#1
Hi guys.
I'm looking for some guidance on how to improve my tone.
I'm curently using my Line 6 UX1 interface with POD Farm 2 on my pc and it's the best I can get until now, but something is still missing from my desired tone.
I eq-ed as much as I knew, I high passed and low passed the guitars through reaper and also got rid of the high mids,it's better but i'm still not happy with the result.
I need more crunch in my tone right now it sounds lifeless to me so anyone one of you how knows how can I improve my tone please help me.
Here is a sample of my tone for now: https://soundcloud.com/tuca-madalin/chuguri
and here is another along with some drums:https://soundcloud.com/tuca-madalin/criminal2
#2
Honestly, that's one of the better POD Farm tones I've heard in a while. However, if you're wanting more crunch, I think you're going the wrong way as far as reducing high mids is concerned. I'd reduce the low mids if you want crunch...

I realize you're going for a more beefy tone, but you're going about it the wrong way. The guitar is the mid instrument, often times, guitar tones won't sound very good without a bass recorded; it sounds like you're trying to compensate for the lack of a bass track by over EQing the guitar.

Record a bass track (or even just a pitch shifted guitar), you'll be amazed how much better your "guitar tone" will sound.
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#3
thanks a lot for the help man, and I'm surprised that you said that it actually sounds ok, I mean it's a hell of a lot better than what I was having some time ago but still it doesen't sound that good to me, probably because I don't really know how to eq them properly I just looked up on the internet
#4
MatrixClaw Look here is my eq so far http://imageshack.com/a/img923/3516/ZBSX9I.png I really don't know so much about it I just know what each thing does, the low pass and the high pass and I know that band is there to reduce that fizzy sound. So what would you recomand to add or edit for a more clear and crunchy tone?
#5
Quote by tuca.madalin
MatrixClaw Look here is my eq so far http://imageshack.com/a/img923/3516/ZBSX9I.png I really don't know so much about it I just know what each thing does, the low pass and the high pass and I know that band is there to reduce that fizzy sound. So what would you recomand to add or edit for a more clear and crunchy tone?

I'd try being more surgical on that middle cut. If you're doing it to get rid of some nasty ring, you should make the bandwidth small (0.5 or less) and sweep it back and forth while it's set to max. Once you hear the bad tone, lower it down to cut it out. You might end up with a few more cuts in that area, but you're cutting out so much range with the bandwidth at 2 right now that it's slicing out all the crunch.

In the past, I've found this chart to be useful for people learning to properly EQ:

http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm

Keep in mind, this is just a guide. Where each frequency range lies can depend fairly heavily on the instrument, so cutting a bunch of 1K might not do the same on one guitar/amp as it does on another.
Quote by Dave_Mc
I've had tube amps for a while now, but never actually had any go down on me
Quote by jj1565
maybe you're not saying the right things? an amp likes to know you care.





www.SanctityStudios.com
#6
I agree here that guitar tone is pretty nice man, definitely in need of some bass guitar to get some more chugging going on, guitars on there own recorded generally don't sound that great, only really sounds right in a full mix
#8
The Locust oh well, I never thought it sounded good enough, thanks for your opinion, it really matters!
#10
I'd chime in just to say that getting good sounds out of Pod Farm is usually an uphill battle that you'll eventually lose.
Try some other plugins, maybe change out the speaker in the chain with an IR via IR loader like say freeware NadIR and Kalthallen impulses or try something like Kazrog's IR loader or another amp sim (LePou, Nick Crow 7170) to see if it will improve. Also some short IR room reverb might add an extra dimension to it.
#11
Post some screenshots of the patch you're using (including the amp and any effects' settings).
With PodFarm you have to be delicate, but deliberate. If you want a tighter sound with more crunch, drop a Screamer in front with the drive at 0 and the gain and tone somewhere between 50% and 60%.
Also, the 'Brit Celest V-30s' with the '57 Off Axis' is the best sounding cab/mic combo to my ear, but I like fairly modern/bright tones.

In general, your tone isn't too bad at all! It's just lacking a bass!
#12
The problem is mixing and figuring out guitar tones in a vacuum is just that: the tone is in a vacuum.

One thing to keep in mind is a good guitar tone on it's own =/= good in a mix. Sometimes a terrible guitar tone fits in a mix better than the perfect tone.

Case in point: Lamb of God's Sacrament. As the rhythm buss, the guitars are really loose, have a honky attack, and have no real impact as a tone (a lot of the impact is the compression) In the mix, those guitars are HUGE:

- Rhythm Buss

- Full Mix

Notice that the guitars tighten up A LOT in the mix, and that kinda honky attack disappears. Bass guitar is what actually gives rhythm guitar it's stereo space and impact. Listen to a song with it's bass and without (as the instrument, not EQ'd out) and you'll find the drums loose their punch and the guitars loose their space.

Bass guitar is pivotal to a guitar tone in a recording.
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#13
CorrosionMediathanks,I have a screamer in front of the setup of course and I use the Criminal Head along with the 4x12 Treadplate. I tweaked a bit on the eq and now i'm pretty happy with the results: https://soundcloud.com/tuca-madalin/full-mix
What do you think?
If you have any advise, I'm happy to hear it, please note that I'm using my guitar as the bass using a pitchshifter as I don't have a bass right now.
#15
Quote by tuca.madalin
the chemist yes indeed, it's pretty ok though that I've got some help from you guys I improved the tone, here's the final result in the mix: https://soundcloud.com/tuca-madalin/full-mix but I used the guitar as the bass using a pitchshifter as I have no bass.


Much better, however the bass is really lacking. In part due to the processed used to get it, and in part because the bass tone is really clean for the style of music. You'll find with metal bass is there is warm distortion on it, and it's squashed to hell. That gives it a growl, and with that growl it mixes into the guitar and add a big bottom to it.

To add to my earlier post (sing the same song), listen to this bass tone:



Notice that the bass isn't super bass heavy, but has a compressed, crunchy growl. For some reason, the upload of that video added compression to the mix, so it does duck here and there, but the bass saturation doesn't change. Very flat, distorted bass that blends into the guitars.

As to the mix, the lead guitars are bland. Not sure if it's the playing or the tone, but it lacks impact. The snare is the same: flat and lifeless. I'd look at using a slightly higher pitched snare and really EQing the upper end on it (Shelf it up +15 DB at about 6kHz) that will add massive attack and let it cut through without overpowering the mix. If you also have some kind of harmonic enhancer plugin (something like an Aural Exciter emulation), I'm recommend adding some upper harmonic enrichment as well. Here's the effect in practice (EQ and Harmonics):

Pre EQ:
https://soundcloud.com/blockroom-recordings/snare-with-overheads-no-chain/s-AejKx

Post EQ:
https://soundcloud.com/blockroom-recordings/snare-with-overheads-processed/s-F69GS

Overall though, you're on the right track with this.
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Last edited by the chemist at Sep 5, 2016,
#16
the chemistthanks a lot for the tips, I'll improve it. I'm gonna work on the snare, get my hands on a real bass, and yeah I put distortion on the pitch shifted guitar but it lacks power because it's a guitar, and for the snare I'll play around with the eq, see what needs to be done, and overall I used an eq plugin on the master track played around on the high frequencies and made the song a lot brighter, however it sounds worse when I'm raising the volume too much, I tried compressing the master track but everything sounded weak, maybe because I don't have a clue on working with a compressor xD
#17
Do you have the MIDI/guitar tracks you can upload, and if so are the guitars DI'd? I'd also need the tempo map (or simple BPM)

I'd like to take a stab at it
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#18
the chemist my guitar is running directly through my interface the bpm is set to 160 soundcloud won't let me upload more, I'll try and fix it and send them to you
#20
I wouldn't worry about it, Soundcloud usually 404s .wav files anyways/.
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#21
the chemist damn, here: https://mab.to/MzqEl9o2J you can download it.
Also can you please explain me a bit to me how compression works? I tried using a compressor on the master track by watching a tutorial but it compresses the snare sound so much that it sounds too weak and the rest of the drums are sounding too weak, I tried lowering the gain reduction as much as I could but it's still the same. I mean I saw your videos of lamb of god's guitars and with all the instruments compressed it sounds damn good as you said.
#22
Compression is something you have to learn how to use, it's the hardest processor to get right.

What you're having there is too much attack and too much release combined with too active of a threshold and too high of a ratio.

OK, so I ran the tone through my Modeller of choice (Bias) and this is what I got:

https://soundcloud.com/blockroom-recordings/guitartoneug1/s-rmkYc

And here is what I did:



So first, I thought of what the guitar needed. After cranking the actual level of the file (+14db so it actually had a decent level, it was recorded really low), I figured the old TS9 >> US style amp. PodFarm does have a Mark series model somewhere, so you should be able to follow along.

My emulation of choice was a Mesa Boogie Mk IIC. I would recommend avoiding Rectos as unless you have experience with real rectos you will search for a tone forever. One thing about Rectos (especially Singles and Duals) is that the Mid control acts a a sort of 2nd gain stage, meaning unless you know how to manipulate the Pre Gain with the Mid Gain, you will get sloppy mud.

Note my chain: The TS is 0 Gain, 100 Level and middle tone. Thgis just adds a tiny bit of grit, cleans up the low end, and boosts the signal, making the pre-amp saturate earlier without needing to pump the gain. Do this after recording, like I did.

Next, EQ the amp as is. I went for ~12 o'clock on Gain, Bass, Treble, and Presence, and cranked the Mids. If you want punchy as hell guitars, you need Mids. Scooped guitars, IMHO, are weak. Sure, the sound heavy, but they have no impact.

From here my cabinet was a 4x12 with V30s (for Bias folks, the 4x12V30OR), with the mic directly on cone. No Room tone, no Gate. If you have the option, you can change the Power Tubes to EL-84s. If not, drop the gain a tiny bit on the Pre and raise your Presence a tiny bit.

If you have a graphic EQ in PodFarm you can add after the fact, just roll of the low end before 80Hz, and roll off the top end after 13kHz, this will control the rumble and the digital hiss on the top/

For EQ, I wanted to drop to sculpt the sound a tiny bit without affecting the meat of the mids. To do this I further dropped the low end, boosted 75Hz a tiny bit and then scooped out 220. 220Hz is where the average snare fundamental is, so if you carve this out you won't notice it as much in the mix and it gives the snare somewhere to sit. I also wanted to accentuate the attack on the top, so I did a fairly fat boost at 4k. With the SSL EQ, I had that set to Classic ASYM EQ process, so it added some attack and scratch without becoming nasal. Rolled the top a bit further to control the V30 sizzle.

Compression was fairly simple. This is where guitars are made or lost. I used a moderate attack (1ms) and a VERY fast release (0.1ms) . For a ratio I went with a 2:1, so it's not overly killing the dynamics. Threshold was +20, which on a normal compressor would be it's BARELY slapping the peaks down. In this case, it only affected the mutes passages. Make-Up is to taste; I went to unity so that it's coming out at the same level, only the mutes weren't crushing.

Note that any EQ and Compressor will do what I did, as should any guitar modeler. Try matching settings, then experiment. A lot of times, the amp settings themselves are right, but the cabinet/mic isn't, even with modelers.

You will hear some ambiance. I made an aux track with some Delays (220ms) and added it in just to the point you could hear it, to give the guitart a bit of room to breathe.
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Last edited by the chemist at Sep 9, 2016,
#23
the chemist Damn dude you're really determined to help. I can't thank you enough this is what I use for now, I haven't changed them as you said but I'm gonna change them now, but this is what I had until now and these are the amp settings I used the Criminal head which is a Peavy 5150 sim as you probably already know, and the 4x12 Treadplate with a 67 condenser, for punchiness, I'll increase the mids more, I have the screamer to crunch up a bit of the signal and also a modern preamp because I noticed that will give a bit more crunch by reducing the high mids with it as you said. and here is what I use on the master track, some kind of eq to brighten it up a bit, and the compressors which I don't really know if they are set up corectly or not and finally here is the compression on the guitars:
Last edited by tuca.madalin at Sep 9, 2016,
#24
the chemist Alright so I tweaked it more by reducing all the drive from the screamer,increased the gain and the tone at 50%, then reduced some of the treble from the criminal head at around 65%, and the presence at 60%, I think i'm gonna leave the 4x12 treadplate and the 67 condenser mic beacause the 57 mic sounds too fizzy for my liking, I think it'll have to do something with the eq as you said. The tone is almost perfect for my liking the problem is,how do I compress all the instruments in the mix so that they sound good? Thanks in advance again dude and thanks for all the help until now
#25
Again, I'd need to know what instruments you have in the mix, their EQ, how you're mixing them, etc.

Compression is determined by all these factors, as well as overall tonality you're aiming for. Do you want your compression to be transparent (not obvious or making massive changes to your tone)? Use an optocompressor. Do you want your compressor to add massive attack? Use a VCA-style compressor, also known as the 'Iron sound'. Want warmth and saturation on the whole mix? Tube compressor.

After this, each instrument will want different compression styles and flavors. Drums LOVE VCA compressors because they enhance the transient attack of the drums, and cymbals fill out a lot with the irons, bass guitar prefers tube compression (IMO), keys/synths and guitars prefer opto as they're clean and transparent. Vocals seem to come alive with FET compressors.

Compression is also determined by the complexity of the mix. 2 rhythm tracks? 4 rhythm tracks? Each will want a different compression style and ratio. Wall of sound? This will take very careful and thoughtful compression. Sometimes you don't need to compress guitars; distortion is a great compressor already. Sometimes you need to multiband or harmonically compress guitars.

I'd recommend reading this article, it will cover what you may be doing wrong:

http://www.barryrudolph.com/mix/comp.html
Quote by Watterboy
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#26
the chemist I think there's no point in bothering you with step by step tips by telling you all the instruments all their eq and stuff and I'll read that article you gave me, thanks a lot for the support and tips ! I really improved something with your help and the others help
#27
tuca.madalin

I'm not a,"Metal" guy as such but do like heavy guitar sounds and yours are pretty damn good but I know what you mean.There's a little bit of oomph missing,to use a word.
I only have the original Podfarm but with some of the add-ons.Have you tried the,"Big Bottom" line 6 amp? either alone or in dual mode.It has a great bottom end,"Thump"

Also I've run recorded wet sounds,not dry,through a couple of Free VSTs to add some warmth/vavle-E ness,

http://www.vstplanet.com/News/11/AMP212_guitar_AMP_Simulation.htm

and or,

http://www.vst4free.com/free_vst.php?id=689

Quite metal and just to show you one of my Rock songs using Podfarm but running my guitar through a Behringer Ultragain 200 Valve preamp(Great Multi Preamp for my Guitars/Bass/mics) and cheap and then into my Line6 Studio GX/Podfarm.

https://soundcloud.com/paulsheppard/sabb192k

Also octivider as a de-tune,
#28
sheppola1 Thanks for the advices dude, right now I've got a decent tone that I'm happy with but I'll try what you said.
and your track is spot on!
#29
tuca.madalin

In your earlier post you asked about compressing guitars etc to get a better mix.I've been home recording for over 20 years and getting over-driven/distorted guitars to sit well in a mix is not easy.I still haven't got to a,"Pro" level but good enough for my needs and like learning guitar or any instrument recording and mixing needs to be practiced.

It's not just the guitars it's everything has to be EQ'd right and compressed and limited correctly.Compromises have to made as there's only so many spaces available in a mix frequency and position wise.

Bookmark this page as it's been exceptionally useful to me over the years with it's no nonsense advice,

http://www.benvesco.com/blog/mixing/
Last edited by sheppola1 at Sep 11, 2016,