#1
So i understand what secondary dominants are for example in the key of C maj, A7 would be the secondary dominant to D dim, B7 to E min , C7 to F maj etc..
my question being what if you were to go past the 7th degree of each of those Secondary dom chords. such as 9s 11s, 13th, which qualities would they each have? the V would be a 13 but what about the ones that aren't in the key?
I see the ones that resolve to minor chords as b9s because I see them coming from the Harmonic minor scale which would give them the qualities of a b9,b13.
Would the ones that resolve to major chords be from a Major scale from a different key, example the C7 resolving to Fmaj be C7(9,11,13) since the C7 would come from the key of Fmaj?
#2
fair question...

the extended chords 9 11 13 etc are still using the function as a dominant chord..they can even be altered b5 #9 or any combination of altered dom chord tones..the function remains the same..now..its gets a bit tricky when you begin to "back cycle" and use substitutions that can be seen as belonging to more than one key..or having a multi function, that is, the chord could be seen as a major or dominant function..in these cases it becomes part of the context of the progression in its analysis..this is going into theory and the study of diatonic harmony..both of which are well worth the time to study
play well

wolf
#3
Quote by enloartworks
So i understand what secondary dominants are for example in the key of C maj, A7 would be the secondary dominant to D dim, B7 to E min , C7 to F maj etc..
my question being what if you were to go past the 7th degree of each of those Secondary dom chords. such as 9s 11s, 13th, which qualities would they each have? the V would be a 13 but what about the ones that aren't in the key?
I see the ones that resolve to minor chords as b9s because I see them coming from the Harmonic minor scale which would give them the qualities of a b9,b13.
Would the ones that resolve to major chords be from a Major scale from a different key, example the C7 resolving to Fmaj be C7(9,11,13) since the C7 would come from the key of Fmaj?
You've got it, basically. The convention is major key V7s to go to major chords, and minor key (harmonic minor) V7s to go to minors.

But before extending your secondary dominants, get familiar with secondary supertonics too. IOW, secondary ii-V pairs. E.g., not just A7b9 to go to Dm (whatever key the Dm is in), but Em7b5-A7b9. As opposed to Em7-A9 to go to D major (or D7).

Beyond there, other alterations are possible, and it's also possible to swap the types - especially to have a harmonic minor V chord going to a major I. E.g., Em7b5-A7b9 could also resolve to D major. Likewise Em7-A9 could go to Dm instead of D major, but that would (IME) be less common.
It's always about the voice-leading, deciding how you want chord tones to move (whole or half-steps up or down), in ways that suit the context (melody and style). Major-minor issues are secondary.

BTW, when adding an 11 to a dom7 chord, leave the 3rd out - ie make it a 9sus4 or 7sus4. Or just stick a 13 on and forget the 11. Also, if adding a b13, leave out the 5th (or voice the 5th higher). Always watch out for those rogue b9 intervals appearing between chord tones - with the exception of a 7b9 chord itself, that is.
Last edited by jongtr at Oct 20, 2016,
#4
Yes, b9 and b13 are usually used for "minor sounding" dominant chords and natural 9 and 13 are used for "major sounding" dominant chords. So the most "natural" extensions for secondary dominants in the key of C major would be b9 and b13 for A7, E7 and B7 and natural 9 and 13 for D7 and C7.

The quality of the 13 is quite obvious because the 13th of the dominant chord is the third of the tonic chord. G13 has an E in it so it naturally resolves to C major, and G7b13 has an Eb in it so it naturally resolves to Cm. The 9th of the dominant chord is the 6th scale degree of the key scale. G9 has an A in it so it naturally gives a more major sound (because C major scale has an A in it) and G7b9 has an Ab in it so it naturally gives a more minor sound (because C minor scale has an Ab in it).

Then again, you could also just use the notes of the key scale. In C major, the extensions for A7 would be natural 9 (B) and b13 (F). The extensions for the other chords would stay the same (b9 and b13 for E7 and B7 and natural 9 and 13 for D7 and C7).

In the end it's all about the sound that you are after. Sometimes it's cool to play a "minor" sounding dominant chord but resolve it to a major chord, for example G7b9-C instead of Cm (that you would normally expect after G7b9).

Also, these are not the only possibilities. These are just the most "expected" sounds. You can also have a 7b9 chord with a natural 13. And you can of course also alter the 5th and the 11th (natural 11 is usually avoided because it clashes with the major third).


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Quote by AlanHB
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Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Oct 20, 2016,
#6
Quote by enloartworks
jongtr

what are secondary supertonics?

He's talking about secondary ii-V's. The ii chord is also known as "supertonic", though I rarely hear people using that term.

What is a secondary ii-V? A secondary ii-V would be for example Am7-D7 (that would resolve to G) in C major. Am7-D7 is the ii-V of G major, and if you use it in the key of C major, it's a secondary ii-V. A secondary ii-V for the iii in C major (Em) would be F#m7b5-B7 (ii-V in the key of E minor).
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#7
I would make your secondary extensions diatonic to the target harmony, if you need a do-no-harm solution. eg, if you're doing a V/iii, you'd probably want to use b9 and b13, unless there's a specific sound you want. You can always do chromatic stuff for color, too. And check what the melody is doing.
#8
Mags and Jon got it down. +1.

The term I hear a lot is "interpolated II", rather than "secondary supertonic", the rationale being those II chords don't have secondary function.

But yeah we basically have 3 types of dominants:

Regular dominants that resolve up a 4th/down a 5th to major or minor chords

Substitute or "Lydian" Dominants (these resolve down a half step)

Altered dominants (chromatically altered V& chords that resolve up a 4th/down a 5th)

So really it comes down to implying the right sound at the right time. You have options as usual.
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