#1
Hey, was wondering if someone could help me out with some example... "Enharmonically speaking"... just jogging my memory/knowledge:

-If I were in Bb Major and played the note (E as we know it) would it actually have to be called Fb in that key?

-In Cb major playing the note (F as you know it) would I have to label it 'Gbb'/G double Flat in that key? and finally,

-In F# major playing the (C note) would i have to label it as B# in that key?

Thanks to anyone who can help out in advance.


(And by "as we know it" i mean as an accidental in the key or just the regular note you would call it if it were not in a key)
thanks
#3
-If I were in Bb Major and played the note (E as we know it) would it actually have to be called Fb in that key? nope. just E

-In Cb major playing the note (F as you know it) would I have to label it 'Gbb'/G double Flat in that key? nope, just F

-In F# major playing the (C note) would i have to label it as B# in that key? Yeah probably. To be totally accurate.

In all cases, as far as I know. Or more accurately, "I think..."

I think the basic rule is only to have each letter once. So if you've already used G, G# should be called Ab.
Quote by crownegamers
I saw in a couple of pictures that on Bucketheads Les Paul (only some pictures) that his neck pickup is painted in white. Can anyone explain to me why he would do this, and if there are any pros and cons.

Quote by dspellman
The guy wears a KFC Bucket and a white mask during performances, and you're interested in the color of his pickup covers?

#4
You're asking about tritones.

The name depends on what scale degree you're talking about.

For Bbdim-Bb, the notes in the first chord are Bb-Db-Fb. 1-b3-b5.
For Cbdim-Cb, notes: Cb-Ebb-Gbb.
F#dim-F#: F#-A-C.

Scale degrees have a meaning:
- if 2 numbers away, 2 letters away.
- if 4 numbers away, 4 letters away. B and F, C and G, F and C are all 4 letters away from each other and thus make a fifth, regardless of what type of fifth it is.

However, ascending line in Bb major:

3  #4   5
D - E - F
Bb


#4 alteration usually leads upwards.

I don't know where you'd normally see Cb major, though. Why would someone willingly torture another person with 7 flats?
#5
Rightt...
Yeah, I knew about the "one letter per scale" thing though i thought it may have been like, if you wanted to play a Edim chord but you're in Bb major
you'd have to keep to the flat/sharp if its an accidental (Fb)
Like to write an 'E' on a stave in Bb major, for example, would you draw a natural symbol next to an E note or an F note with a flat sign next to it? :s

Also why do you think that C shouldnt just be C and has to be called B#.
As it's the same principle with the Cb and Bb?

Thanks for responding btw Intriguing stuff, music theory
#6
^^ (Neo) Er, what? like in fisheth's thread, I thought I understood enough to answer the initial question, and I have no idea where to even start with that post. Does it even have the answer in it?

They're all perfect fourths, surely, not tritones? Or am I missing something?

EDIT: ^ I don't really want to post any more because I have no clue what's going on now after Neo's post. Either he's overcomplicating this or I'm oversimplifying it, and as he knows a lot more about music theory than me I may well be the one who's wrong.
Quote by crownegamers
I saw in a couple of pictures that on Bucketheads Les Paul (only some pictures) that his neck pickup is painted in white. Can anyone explain to me why he would do this, and if there are any pros and cons.

Quote by dspellman
The guy wears a KFC Bucket and a white mask during performances, and you're interested in the color of his pickup covers?

Last edited by Dave_Mc at Oct 24, 2016,
#7
True, I did use tritones in all my examples... I was just checking to see if the chord names had to be kept with the Flat/sharp rule..

Like, without tritone examples..
Playing a B note in Bb major... would I call it Cb?

Haha, fuck... i dont even know anymore... Iv'e been thinking about this stuff for hours and im frying my brain :s
#8
Like.. if there's any accidental, it must be absolutely turned in to a Flat if i a key with flats
or absolutely turned into a sharp if in a key with sharps...

Like an.. "F" note in D Major... must it be called E#?

ahahah... im starting to think not.
#9
Dave_Mc
Bb to E is a tritone
Cb to F is a tritone
F# to C is a tritone

6 semitones in between

(also, I'm not a guy )

deathfromala
One letter per scale fails when playing out of key. There are major and minor keys and related notes in scales, and these tones (#4/b5) are not normally in the key.

Specific examples of #4 (or equivalent)
Edim-F-Bb is well-named. it's viio/V - V - I in Bb major. Edim has the notes E-G-Bb.
Guitar chord 133200 (F-C-F-A-B-E) = Fmaj7#11.

Beyond that, if you're just talking about chords, it really depends on the context. Diminished 7th chords are symmetrical (Cdim7, Ebdim7, F#dim7, Adim7 all have the same sounds, but different contexts and functions).
-------
bII chord in Bb major would be Cb.
-------
Answer may be more coherent with song context. Theory doesn't exist in a vacuum.
#10
Interesting stuff. good to get the brain running haha but thanks for the information
Also wouldnt Edim - F - Bb in Bb be "bvo" instead of viio/V?

But in song context (which is what brought me to think about these relations in the first place)
Is that I just tabbed a song In C minor and a chord came up:

0-9-11-9-11-x
EADGBE

Now I thought... So F#7/E
but them remembered that Cm has flats so I then thought it would be Gb7/E
But then I wondered If E would be affected by the flats, hence being Gb7/Fb?

#11
What song are you talking about?


Also, E natural is quite a common accidental in the key of Bb major. Whether you should use E or Fb has a lot to do with voice leading. Does the note resolve up to F or down to Eb. That really dictates whether you should call it E or Fb.

Even in C minor I would say E natural is much more common than Fb. But again, it depends on context, not really on the key we are in.

In a minor key it is common to sharpen the 3rd, 4th, 6th and 7th. It is common to flatten the 2nd.

In a major key it is common to sharpen the tonic, 4th and 5th, sometimes also the 2nd, and it is common to flatten the 7th, 6th, 3rd and sometimes the 2nd. Generally speaking, in a major key sharpening notes = secondary dominant (or just a chromatic lower neighbor), flattening notes = modal mixture.


Edim going to F would be a secondary dominant. viio/V would be the correct way of marking it. I guess #ivo would be fine too, but it would ignore the secondary dominant function. bvo would be incorrect because in the key of Bb major, E is the #4, not the b5.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#12
MaggaraMarine

if you want to look at the song I think it's this



something something not everything is functional
#13
Quote by NeoMvsEu
Dave_Mc
Bb to E is a tritone
Cb to F is a tritone
F# to C is a tritone

6 semitones in between

(also, I'm not a guy )


oof i feel like a dope. would you believe i actually had a pic of a (piano) keyboard in front of me on wikipedia to try to avoid a mistake I think I forgot it was a semitone between the (major) third and fourth, like an idiot I was thinking it was a whole tone for some stupid reason. I think that probably happened because I tend to think in intervals on guitar and notes on piano, and mixing the two I got mixed up.

Alternative explanation is I'm an idiot.

(And sorry, I didn't realise you weren't a guy. )
Quote by crownegamers
I saw in a couple of pictures that on Bucketheads Les Paul (only some pictures) that his neck pickup is painted in white. Can anyone explain to me why he would do this, and if there are any pros and cons.

Quote by dspellman
The guy wears a KFC Bucket and a white mask during performances, and you're interested in the color of his pickup covers?

#14
Quote by MaggaraMarine
In a major key it is common to sharpen the tonic


Wait, what? Surely that would be a b2 or else it's a key change, right? How would that work?

And yea, it really depends on the context of what type of interval the note in question is acting as, which is dictated by the harmony.
#15
The answer to like all of these is "it depends".

Melodic and harmonic accidentals can be labeled differently; most of the spelling is related to FUNCTION.

F#7 in the key of Cm? Depends on where it's going. If we are tonicizing a B I'd call it F#.

If the F#7 is resolving down a half step to IVm7 (Fm), I'd call it Gb. Context context context.

No, its not bVdim7. It's VIIdim7/V. This is the chords function. It is a secondary leading tone chord, the diminished 7th chord OF its resolution, V7.
"There are two styles of music. Good music and bad music." -Duke Ellington

"If you really think about it, the guitar is a pointless instrument." - Robert Fripp
#16
Quote by The4thHorsemen
Wait, what? Surely that would be a b2 or else it's a key change, right? How would that work?

C-A7-Dm-G7-C. A7 has a C# in it.

As I said, sharpened notes in a major key usually suggest secondary dominants.

Yes, b2 is also used, but I would say it's not that common in a major key.


When it comes to the song Neo posted, the intro is not in C minor - it's in Bb. Bb feels like the tonic to me. But then it modulates to Cm. In this context it should be called a Gb7/Fb because the next chord is Eb major. Just look at the bassline: Bb-Gb-Fb-Eb.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#18
Maggara
When it comes to the song Neo posted, the intro is not in C minor - it's in Bb. Bb feels like the tonic to me. But then it modulates to Cm. In this context it should be called a Gb7/Fb because the next chord is Eb major. Just look at the bassline: Bb-Gb-Fb-Eb.

Yes, that's the song I was talking about.
I Was starting to think that the Intro (and Choruses) are in Bb major...

So what is the context? (why is it called Gb7/Fb and not Gb7/E?)
Is it just because the chord line is descending or is there another rule im missing?

Thanks
Last edited by deathfromala at Oct 25, 2016,
#19
Quote by deathfromala

So what is the context? (why is it called Gb7/Fb and not Gb7/E?)
Is it just because the chord line is descending or is there another rule im missing?

Thanks

The chord is built on the flattened 6th scale degree, so it is a Gb7 (you don't really build chords on the raised 5th scale degree). If you look at the chord tones of Gb7, it has Gb, Bb, Db and Fb. A dominant 7th chord needs a minor 7th, and E would be an augmented 6th. Now, augmented 6th chords are a thing (at least in classical music), but in this case the chord isn't functioning as one. In the key of Bb major, E would be the sharpened 4th and would resolve to the 5th (F). But this is not what's happening here.

If we transposed it up by a whole step, it would be G7/F, followed by E major (and we would be in the key of B major), and it seems to make perfect sense. The bassline would be B-G-F-E. The chord wouldn't be G7/E#, and it wouldn't be Fx7/E# either. (The former would change the bassline to B-G-E#-E and the latter would change the bassline to B-Fx-E#-E, both of which look pretty awkward. Then again, if we changed the last note to F#, B-G-E#-F# would make perfect sense.) When you transpose songs to different keys, all interval relationships stay the same. A minor 7th doesn't suddenly become an augmented 6th. Some chord progressions make more sense in certain keys. This is why I transposed it a half step up - it's just easier to read that way because you don't need to flatten every note.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
Last edited by MaggaraMarine at Oct 25, 2016,
#20
Rigggggghhhhtttt. Starting to all make sense now hectic!

Thanks for the help everyone and explanations, everyone!