#1
Hoi,

So basically I've been using my Spider IV 150w since the Middle Ages and I'm used to the concept of having all the effects ready and up to be used anytime without having to buy the effects as pedals or something.

So I've been looking at Marshall's Jvm410H. However, the thing I don't understand is that this particular amp (a full set) costs around 2300€ and it does not come with any effects. However, my spider IV cost about 400€ and has pretty much all the effects there are (at least the majority of them).

What is so special about the Jvm410H to make it so expensive? Why do you have to buy effects such as delay, chorus, tremolo etc as effect pedals (or whatever device that gives you those effects you want)? Why aren't the effects in the amp so there's no need to buy them separately?
#2
dearer amps usually don't come with effects (exceptions sometimes include spring reverb or valve-driven tremolo).

generally speaking dearer (tube) amps sound way better. it's kind of like asking why a ferrari costs more than a lada when they both have 4 tyres and maybe the lada has a few extra cupholders that the ferrari doesn't.

separate effects usually sound better- the kind of people who can afford 2300 euros for an amp likely wouldn't be happy with the quality of effects built into an amp (again, exception being spring reverb and valve tremolo which are awesome- or really expensive multi-fx/amp modellers like the axe fx and similar items).

also more cynically, the kind of person who can afford 2300 euros for an amp can probably afford to buy pedals as well

what type(s) of music do you play? you certainly don't have to go to anywhere near 2300 euros either to get a good (tube) amp. i'm guessing you're in europe when you mention euros- jet city on thomann for example sound pretty good and can be got for under 400 euros.
Quote by crownegamers
I saw in a couple of pictures that on Bucketheads Les Paul (only some pictures) that his neck pickup is painted in white. Can anyone explain to me why he would do this, and if there are any pros and cons.

Quote by dspellman
The guy wears a KFC Bucket and a white mask during performances, and you're interested in the color of his pickup covers?

#3
I listen to many bands. But I mainly focus on Joe Satriani and Slash (I play them the most). And mentioning JS pretty much tells you and I use lots of effects. And I do use thomann to buy stuff.
#4
Quote by Billie_J
H
What is so special about the Jvm410H to make it so expensive?


Pretty much nothing, honestly, other than the willingness of some folks to pay that money for that amp.
If it's really important to you to have an all-tube amp for some reason, they're available from other manufacturers for far less.

And modelers are available by themselves (without amps), and at all levels of price, and you can add amplification and speakers at will, depending on what you need.
#5
Generally speaking, the majority of tube amps sound better than solid state amps. It's much easier to integrate effects to a solid state amp that's why you don't often see them in tube amps other than reverb.

To add to that, individual pedals often sound better than effects built into amps as well as mulit-effects pedals. That being said, not everyone can afford to buy all that stuff and many find a sound that is satisfactory to their ears without buying top shelf equipment.
#6
Also, built-in pedals will rarely allow you to change the order they're in, or whether they apply to the signal before or after the pre-amp, which can drastically affect how they sound.
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#7
some good points hit on already. probably the biggest reason that many prefer to buy separate fx is you can choose the fx that suite you. built in fx are programmed to certain specs (even if they can be altered some). what if you don't care for those specs? fx pedals or multi-fx come in a pretty wide variety of abilities and sounds. being able to choose exactly what you want is considered a good thing to most people. I currently usually have 4 pedals on my board (wha, overdrive, phaser and delay) all by different makers. as far as I can tell no one else on this board uses the exact same pedals (and this is way more common than you may think as tons of players may use the same fx but by different makers).
#8
Not only that, but in my experience, no manufacturer is equally good at all effects. That's true for standard stompboxes, MFX units, and even the stuff built into amps.
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#9
Generally when you have an amp with built in effects you have a few problems (like mentioned)

1) You are effectively stuck with what is built into the amp (so if you don't like the sounds you'll have to buy external effects and that defeats the purpose of having them built it)

2) Most of them lack a ton of control (take your Line 6 for example, you have a single dial to dial in multiple settings for things like modulation. Personally, I like seperate knobs for tone, depth, level, speed etc... and a lot of them lack that feature for the simple convenience of a single knob)

3) You also lack the ability to choose where you would like the effect in the chain for most of those amps as well. Sometimes I like chorus and delay in the effects loop or at least post preamp.


So your cheap Line 6 may seem more impressive to you since it seems like it has more features, but at the end of the day, quantity =/= quality and when you start dropping big $$$ on gear I assume quality takes precedent. Not how many mediocre effects you can cram into an amp.
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#10
Quote by Billie_J
I listen to many bands. But I mainly focus on Joe Satriani and Slash (I play them the most). And mentioning JS pretty much tells you and I use lots of effects. And I do use thomann to buy stuff.


It depends on how much versatility you need, but i'd have said that jet city actually does those tones really, really well. its normal channel is more of a crunch channel than a clean channel (though you can roll the guitar volume down for cleans), but it's basically a high-gain 80s-voiced tube amp. which is pretty much exactly what you want for those type of tones.

https://www.thomann.de/gb/jet_city_amplification_jca5012_combo.htm

or if you want to splash out a little more:

https://www.thomann.de/gb/jet_city_amplification_jca50h.htm

https://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_g212_vintage.htm?ref=search_prv_6

https://www.thomann.de/gb/cordial_ctl_15_pp.htm

(effectively the same amp, just you have a head and cab setup, more and better speakers etc.)

with either an overdrive pedal used as a boost will give you a bit more versatility (e.g. harley benton vintage overdrive, a tubescreamer clone on the cheap)

Quote by dspellman
Pretty much nothing, honestly, other than the willingness of some folks to pay that money for that amp.
If it's really important to you to have an all-tube amp for some reason, they're available from other manufacturers for far less.

And modelers are available by themselves (without amps), and at all levels of price, and you can add amplification and speakers at will, depending on what you need.


I agree that you can be too worried about having tubes, and there's no need to spend tons, but tell me this- it's all well and good saying that modelling is awesome these days, but are any modellers available at a comparable price to the jet city which sound as good for the tones he wants? I could be wrong but I doubt it. The axe fx and similar are 5 times the price... much like those expensive tube amps you're talking about.
Quote by crownegamers
I saw in a couple of pictures that on Bucketheads Les Paul (only some pictures) that his neck pickup is painted in white. Can anyone explain to me why he would do this, and if there are any pros and cons.

Quote by dspellman
The guy wears a KFC Bucket and a white mask during performances, and you're interested in the color of his pickup covers?

#11
Many people, including myself, think tube amps sound better than modelers. Try each out and make up your own mind.
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#12
Dave_McThe Atomic Amplifire only costs $600.
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#13
A strong argument for me against built-in FX, pretty much a deal breaker, is that there is more to go wrong and loads of stuff I don't want. Digital multiFX also turned out to be a terrible time-waster for me. A few pedals suit me fine, I know what I want in the way of sounds, it is fine tuning I'm looking for, and I'm not sure that multiFX could accommodate that.
#14
If you've got the greenery to afford it, you can't go wrong with Hughes & Kettner's Coreblade. Tubes, built-in effects, and glorious tones. US$2,400.00 bucks, though.
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#15
Try to demo that Marshall if you should be able to hear the difference. That particular amp might be a bit pricey, I usually look for quality used amps as it is cheaper, especially the more expensive ones become a good bargain used. All my Marshalls I've bought used.
#16
A bit off topic but who gives a damn. So as I was using my amp's built in tuner and I was about to exit it, I still had one of the strings ringing. When I exited the tuner I heard an extremely loud explosion like sound from the amp. I was unable to make any sound out of it. I then turned it off and back on and only then did it start working. What could possibly have happened? And another side question. Could a defective electric guitar damage a guitar amplifier? Might sound silly but I've heard people talk about it so I just started wondering if it really is true.
#17
Quote by Billie_J
A bit off topic but who gives a damn. So as I was using my amp's built in tuner and I was about to exit it, I still had one of the strings ringing. When I exited the tuner I heard an extremely loud explosion like sound from the amp. I was unable to make any sound out of it. I then turned it off and back on and only then did it start working. What could possibly have happened? And another side question. Could a defective electric guitar damage a guitar amplifier? Might sound silly but I've heard people talk about it so I just started wondering if it really is true.


Its a digital amp. If you turned your amp on and off and it works fine then it was probably a glitch.


The only way an electric guitar can damage an amp is if you hit it with one.
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#18
Quote by Cathbard
Dave_McThe Atomic Amplifire only costs $600.


is it good?

andertons seems to be the only dealer here and it's £539... which is £200 more than the jet city 5012 combo... and you (presumably, i don't understand all this modelling guff ) need some kind of speaker to run it through as well.
Quote by crownegamers
I saw in a couple of pictures that on Bucketheads Les Paul (only some pictures) that his neck pickup is painted in white. Can anyone explain to me why he would do this, and if there are any pros and cons.

Quote by dspellman
The guy wears a KFC Bucket and a white mask during performances, and you're interested in the color of his pickup covers?

#19
Quote by Dave_Mc
is it good?

andertons seems to be the only dealer here and it's £539... which is £200 more than the jet city 5012 combo... and you (presumably, i don't understand all this modelling guff ) need some kind of speaker to run it through as well.


I'd say it's pretty good, I've been running everything through it at home for a few months now and you can get some real good sounds out of them (albeit with new cab IRs and a some fiddling). You do need a powered speaker for it, OR a good pair of headphones. Fair to say it's not a route to go down if you want to keep things simple or you know you only want one sound though.
#20
Just curious, how is it that for the UK, jvm410h (full set) costs 2300 euros. And for my country (Finland) the price is 2444 euros? And the euro price is converted from pounds (2300e).
#21
Quote by Billie_J
Just curious, how is it that for the UK, jvm410h (full set) costs 2300 euros. And for my country (Finland) the price is 2444 euros? And the euro price is converted from pounds (2300e).


shipping and whatever other costs are involved. that Marshall is made in the UK so of course it's cheaper there.
#22
^ Yeah pretty much. 144 euros of an upcharge (considering the overall price) isn't actually that much compared to the country where it's made- look how much Mesas cost in Europe compared to what they cost in the USA where they're built (about twice as much, near enough). Granted, Finland's a fair bit closer to the UK than Europe is to Mesa...

Quote by GLP_Arclite
I'd say it's pretty good, I've been running everything through it at home for a few months now and you can get some real good sounds out of them (albeit with new cab IRs and a some fiddling). You do need a powered speaker for it, OR a good pair of headphones. Fair to say it's not a route to go down if you want to keep things simple or you know you only want one sound though.


thanks

and yeah pretty much. i don't necessarily only want one sound but at the same time I don't need 500 either.
Quote by crownegamers
I saw in a couple of pictures that on Bucketheads Les Paul (only some pictures) that his neck pickup is painted in white. Can anyone explain to me why he would do this, and if there are any pros and cons.

Quote by dspellman
The guy wears a KFC Bucket and a white mask during performances, and you're interested in the color of his pickup covers?

Last edited by Dave_Mc at Nov 9, 2016,
#23
The reason you don't see Valve/Tube amps with built in digital effects is due to the circuitry, They just don't play well together and to make them behave is expensive to do, Or you go the hybrid Tube/Solid State route, So with a true Tube manufactures figure if you can afford a Tube amp you can also afford stand alone effects, Which I might add are better anyway, But that's not to say the Solid State modeling amps cant play hard ball with the Tube amps, Take a look at the Kemper Profiler for instance, Through the right cabinet its more than capable of holding its own with any Tube amp, And it costs less than the JVM410H, Are you enough of a Gear Geek to figure out how to make it do it? Cant say. Just know there's a lot of stuff it will do so long as you can figure it out, Me? Hell I can get confused with more than 4 knobs,
#24
Well as spider V was released some time ago, a question arises. In the long run, would you recommend the particular marshall (jvm410h) or a Spider V amp. Isn't the thing with Spider amps that yes they are diverse but only to a certain point whereas the JVM410H doesn't have limits meaning you can keep upgrading it with effects of choice until the "nonexistent" end?
#25
^ Just out of interest, why are those your only two options?

Quote by nastytroll
The reason you don't see Valve/Tube amps with built in digital effects is due to the circuitry, They just don't play well together and to make them behave is expensive to do, Or you go the hybrid Tube/Solid State route, So with a true Tube manufactures figure if you can afford a Tube amp you can also afford stand alone effects, Which I might add are better anyway, But that's not to say the Solid State modeling amps cant play hard ball with the Tube amps, Take a look at the Kemper Profiler for instance, Through the right cabinet its more than capable of holding its own with any Tube amp, And it costs less than the JVM410H, Are you enough of a Gear Geek to figure out how to make it do it? Cant say. Just know there's a lot of stuff it will do so long as you can figure it out, Me? Hell I can get confused with more than 4 knobs,


i dunno about where you are but here in the UK (granted, those marshalls are made here so are probably as cheap here as they'd be anywhere) the jvm410H is about £500 cheaper than the kemper (I'm assuming you need to get a cabinet too for the kemper, you certainly do for the 410H).
Quote by crownegamers
I saw in a couple of pictures that on Bucketheads Les Paul (only some pictures) that his neck pickup is painted in white. Can anyone explain to me why he would do this, and if there are any pros and cons.

Quote by dspellman
The guy wears a KFC Bucket and a white mask during performances, and you're interested in the color of his pickup covers?

#26
Quote by Billie_J
Well as spider V was released some time ago, a question arises. In the long run, would you recommend the particular marshall (jvm410h) or a Spider V amp. Isn't the thing with Spider amps that yes they are diverse but only to a certain point whereas the JVM410H doesn't have limits meaning you can keep upgrading it with effects of choice until the "nonexistent" end?


amps all have limits based on design whether tube or not. as for fx well yes you can mix and match to your hearts content when using an amp that doesn't have them built in. most amps with built in fx (not counting really high end stuff) don't have things like an fx loop and the built in fx at times don't play well with outboard fx.
#27
Quote by Dave_Mc
^ Just out of interest, why are those your only two options?


i dunno about where you are but here in the UK (granted, those marshalls are made here so are probably as cheap here as they'd be anywhere) the jvm410H is about £500 cheaper than the kemper (I'm assuming you need to get a cabinet too for the kemper, you certainly do for the 410H).


Just a comparison I suppose, Difference between high end Valve and high end SS so to say, And yes the Kemper requires a cabinet, Which also needs to be addressed as its as important as the amp in most cases, Meaning a cheap press board Bugera 4x12 loaded with god knows what speakers isn't going to sound near as good as something like a Birch laminate Marshall JCM 1960av loaded with Celestion Vintage 30's, As to why Valve amps don't have built in effects? See if you can find one with a head phone jack, There's a few but very rare, Goes back to its circuitry again, Its a pain in the ass to do,
#28
^ yeah i was just asking him (not you, lol*) why he seems to be looking at only those two options- if you narrow down your options before you have to you can go down the wrong path. the jvm is certainly not the only good-sounding valve amp on the market, you don't need to go anywhere near that price to get something good (in fact, a lot of people actually don't even like the JVM!).

just we see a lot of people (often newer players) deciding what they want before checking out all of the options. Sometimes it's a legit reason (like that's the only thing available locally) but a lot of times it's not.

* unless your response was to the second bit i wrote in which case fair enough
Quote by crownegamers
I saw in a couple of pictures that on Bucketheads Les Paul (only some pictures) that his neck pickup is painted in white. Can anyone explain to me why he would do this, and if there are any pros and cons.

Quote by dspellman
The guy wears a KFC Bucket and a white mask during performances, and you're interested in the color of his pickup covers?

Last edited by Dave_Mc at Nov 11, 2016,
#29
There are also analog tube amps with digital effects included, I actually have one - the Ashdown Fallen Angel. Granted, the digital fx are limited but there amps is all tube, all analog path until you hit the effects which can be bypassed.

I think Hughes and Kettner also has some offerings that are tube amps with digital effects included.
#30
yeah there are quite a few tube amps these days with digital reverb at least.
Quote by crownegamers
I saw in a couple of pictures that on Bucketheads Les Paul (only some pictures) that his neck pickup is painted in white. Can anyone explain to me why he would do this, and if there are any pros and cons.

Quote by dspellman
The guy wears a KFC Bucket and a white mask during performances, and you're interested in the color of his pickup covers?

#31
Quote by Billie_J


What is so special about the Jvm410H to make it so expensive?


Well, there's a few things that go into it:

1, it's quite a complex amp in terms of design (it basically has 4 discrete preamps in it, plus MIDI controllable footswitching).
2, it's a "big-name" amp - that is, the Marshall name pushes up the cost.
3, it's made in England where labor costs are significantly higher.


As to why it doesn't have effects in it: Amp manufacturers tend to be pretty awful at designing effects. Besides that, the number of knobs already on a JVM410H... I don't know where they'd fit the rest for built in effects other than on the back, which isn't convenient.

Besides that, separate pedals or a good multiFX like a Fractal FX8 or something just sound better.
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