#1
Has anyone ever used a monitor speaker directly from a guitar amps line out(preamp). I'm going to be trying it soon because our drummer needs to hear the guitar to help stay on beat. My band doesn't always play in places where they have everything hooked up with a mic to the PA, and carrying around a monitor is much easier than having to bring around an extra cab, and does give us the option to hook up to the PA when there is one or straight from my amp.
#2
I doubt it'll sound good and I'd have more issues with my drummer needing a guitar to keep time. It should be his job to keep time and if he can't, you should consider playing to a click.
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#3
You should rely on the drummer to keep beat, not the other way around. That's how you get sloppy.

If you do this and get it to work, there will be no cab simulation and it'll sound very bad and harsh.
#4
Well, we have a lot of starts and stops where I introduce the next riff. Yes, a lot of people have said to use a click and drummers should keep beat, but our drummer couldn't get the hang of one cause he never used one before and even when we did recording. For the most part our band keeps things pretty tight. Yeah, I have my doubts as far as it sounding any good either. I am looking to getting a separate small cab or 2x12, because I just found in my amp's manual that I can hook up a 16ohm to an 8ohm jack and an 8ohm cab to the 4ohm jack output. To try out a speaker monitor under certain circumstances at the moment will waste time and resources and not to mention move my equipment around. According to my previous amp's manual, that option was not in the manual, and I've aleady been through hell and back messing up a really good amp. I had an engl savage and now an engl invader. fataldescent1.bandcamp.com if anyone cares to give a listen to a track or two of my band. just throwing it out there. we are hardcore/thrash/death. I appreciate the help and insight.
#5
You need filtering (cab sim or freq compensation) if you want to feed a powered monitor from the line out. Otherwise get a guitar cabinet. Sticking an unpowered monitor on the speaker out is not a good solution. But you can try it and see for yourself. Won't cause any harm if you follow the impedance requirements.
#6
Performing without monitoring is very difficult. I would say look into investing into a basic monitoring system (small mixer with a few inputs for your singer, guitar, maybe bass, with a few outputs to send to PA and also your monitoring, and of course a few powered wedges) in the near future. For now, I would suggest to mic your guitar amp and plug that directly into a powered wedge for your drummer.
#7
Quote by fly135
You need filtering (cab sim or freq compensation) if you want to feed a powered monitor from the line out. Otherwise get a guitar cabinet. Sticking an unpowered monitor on the speaker out is not a good solution. But you can try it and see for yourself. Won't cause any harm if you follow the impedance requirements.


Never heard of cab sim or freq compensation. I've had a friend help me out on this and this what he suggested because i've messed up my another amp with hooking up cabs incorrectly. I guess he thinks Im dumb enough to mess it up again. just a fact of ignorance and me not being stupid. Live and learn. Oh well, I know better now and know what connections are acceptable for the amp. Yeah I will likely get a lightweight small cab.
#8
Quote by Will Lane
Performing without monitoring is very difficult. I would say look into investing into a basic monitoring system (small mixer with a few inputs for your singer, guitar, maybe bass, with a few outputs to send to PA and also your monitoring, and of course a few powered wedges) in the near future. For now, I would suggest to mic your guitar amp and plug that directly into a powered wedge for your drummer.


Hm that sounds like it would work but also a bit more complicated as far as taking care of more stuff and connections, and perhaps even a bit more expensive.
#9
Quote by sanjoel
Never heard of cab sim or freq compensation. I've had a friend help me out on this and this what he suggested because i've messed up my another amp with hooking up cabs incorrectly. I guess he thinks Im dumb enough to mess it up again. just a fact of ignorance and me not being stupid. Live and learn. Oh well, I know better now and know what connections are acceptable for the amp. Yeah I will likely get a lightweight small cab.
I am confused with exactly how you are thinking about setting this up. Are you saying you'll run a passive cab with the effects loop line out? It will not work. You need a powered signal to run a passive speaker. If you run it with an extension cab out signal from the power amp into a passive speaker, that will likely "work" although I think you will be cutting your output power from your normal amp speakers as your amp now has to drive the drummer's passive speaker monitor as well.

If you use a powered speaker monitor, you can use the effects loop line out but as others have said it will not sound good to your drummer as guitar speakers have a drastically different frequency curve then the relatively flat response curves of monitor speakers. As well as the effects loop line out, when used and not looped back into the return, could mute your normal guitar speakers entirely.
Quote by sanjoel
Hm that sounds like it would work but also a bit more complicated as far as taking care of more stuff and connections, and perhaps even a bit more expensive.
If you want a professional sound, you will need a proper monitoring system. You have already seen how difficult it is to perform with no monitoring- it needs to be there. Rather than working with an unsure solution, as there are too many variables with your suggestion, just get a mic+cable, and a powered wedge. You can find those USED for pretty cheap. That seems much more simple to me. That way your band can perform with a basic degree of monitoring and you can look into investing in a full, small monitoring system (not as expensive or complicated as you may think) for venues who are not supplying monitors themselves.
Last edited by Will Lane at Nov 10, 2016,
#10
Quote by Ignite

If you do this and get it to work, there will be no cab simulation and it'll sound very bad and harsh.


Not necessarily. More importantly, however, if the drummer is going to be the only one hearing it, some differences in the sound quality hardly matter.
#11
Quote by dspellman
Not necessarily. More importantly, however, if the drummer is going to be the only one hearing it, some differences in the sound quality hardly matter.

Well, I guess it depends on if it has an emulator out as a lot of amps these days do, but of he's going out straight from the preamp, I can't imagine getting a usable tone.

But from a drummers perspective maybe it doesn't matter.

Edit: this is assuming the tone is overdriven, if not then clean a tone wouldn't matter much.
Last edited by Ignite at Nov 10, 2016,
#12
Quote by Ignite
Well, I guess it depends on if it has an emulator out as a lot of amps these days do, but of he's going out straight from the preamp, I can't imagine getting a usable tone


Most preamps have had some kind of cabinet emulator available since 1990.

For example, my old Carvin Quad-X preamp has a 4x12 cabinet emulator built in, and I think it dates to 1994.
I've also got a Mesa Triaxis, which has output emulation built in, and I honestly don't know how old that is, but...old.

Ditto on an Egnater M4 preamp.

My experience is that there's a difference with cab emulation turned off, but nothing that's offensive in any way.
#13
Quote by dspellman
Most preamps have had some kind of cabinet emulator available since 1990.
The line out on his amp has no filtering. I took a look at the manual.
#14
Yeah from drummers perspective doesnt really matter on the sound they're hearing, but I'll just end up getting a small cab and face it his way so he can hear me. Shouldn't be a problem this way.
#15
Quote by dspellman
Most preamps have had some kind of cabinet emulator available since 1990.

For example, my old Carvin Quad-X preamp has a 4x12 cabinet emulator built in, and I think it dates to 1994.
I've also got a Mesa Triaxis, which has output emulation built in, and I honestly don't know how old that is, but...old.

Ditto on an Egnater M4 preamp.

My experience is that there's a difference with cab emulation turned off, but nothing that's offensive in any way.


Those sound really bad. To me anyway. Like straight up no cab+a low pass. Usable for a reference or monitoring I guess, but completely unusable for recording or through a PA. Maybe I'm a tone snob.

I think my Mark IV had a barely decent emulated out but I had much better luck going preamp out into an actual cab simulation.

But I guess this is all still besides the point. If OP can make it work then at least the drummer will have something to hear. But I still feel there are better ways to go about it.

The mic+wedge seems like a neat idea.
#16
I have a separate question. I've been learning to hook up amps and cabs series and parallel. I have a question on my cab. Its a krank revolution cab that only says 16ohms parallel in the back with two jacks. So if it says parallel. That means they are both inputs and shouldnt be used in a series correct? Can it be done using one of those inputs as thru or output to another cab? I won't be doing this anyway I will be hooking up two cabs parallel, just wanted to see if someone knew the answer.
#17
Quote by Ignite
Those sound really bad. To me anyway. Like straight up no cab+a low pass. Usable for a reference or monitoring I guess, but completely unusable for recording or through a PA. Maybe I'm a tone snob.

But I guess this is all still besides the point. If OP can make it work then at least the drummer will have something to hear. But I still feel there are better ways to go about it.

The mic+wedge seems like a neat idea.


The mike plus wedge *seems* like a neat idea until you have to deal with mike placement, the opportunity for the mike to be dislodged during a live performance and the need to suppress extraneous noise, and the need for a mixer of some kind to control volume (and possibly tackle any other EQ-related issues). Running direct from a preamp output in this case might still be the smartest idea.
#18
Quote by fly135
The line out on his amp has no filtering. I took a look at the manual.


Again, however, my experience is that it's not going to matter to the drummer.
#19
Quote by sanjoel
I have a separate question. I've been learning to hook up amps and cabs series and parallel. I have a question on my cab. Its a krank revolution cab that only says 16ohms parallel in the back with two jacks. So if it says parallel. That means they are both inputs and shouldnt be used in a series correct? Can it be done using one of those inputs as thru or output to another cab? I won't be doing this anyway I will be hooking up two cabs parallel, just wanted to see if someone knew the answer.


You don't want to use those two jacks as inputs (that is, with two separate amps) unless the cabinet is specifically wired to be stereo. It's far more likely that the cabinet is simply wired to allow you to add another cabinet by plugging a speaker cable into the other jack and from there into the input jack of another (passive) speaker cabinet. If you were to do this with another identical cabinet, you'd have a total impedance of 8 ohms.

Be aware that if you add a second small cabinet by daisy-chaining it this way to the Krank, you'll probably want the small cabinet to be able to handle at least half the power of the amp you're using.
#20
Quote by dspellman
The mike plus wedge *seems* like a neat idea until you have to deal with mike placement, the opportunity for the mike to be dislodged during a live performance and the need to suppress extraneous noise, and the need for a mixer of some kind to control volume (and possibly tackle any other EQ-related issues). Running direct from a preamp output in this case might still be the smartest idea.
Hmm. I do not see any of those as legitimate issues, although I have never personally had to run something like this... I imagine mic placement would not be too much an issue as long as you just mark the cab where it sounds clearest for the drummer to hear. Dislodging the mic I do not think would be an issue unless the stage is really bouncy and/or you are tipping over and moving your speaker cabs like EVH.

Extraneous noise, yeah that is an issue but it is an issue on any stage where the sound source is not isolated, so just use a cardioid mic (SM57 is obvious choice, a lay-on mic like the Sennheiser e609 would also solve the mic placement issue) and you would be as fine as possible. I do not think there needs to be some sort of volume control in-line as you can just get a powered monitor with a volume control, as many have I think. Running from a preamp out will still need a powered monitor. I think the lack of guitar speaker response would be too grimy for the drummer to monitor with IMO, but getting out a mixer for some EQ control (which I doubt you would need with a SM57 or e609 for this usage) would be too much hassle.

EDIT: Using the direct out from the amp would take the mic out of the signal, but your monitor would need to have a line out as well to route into the return of the amp, if the effects loop send disengages the signal when not connected to the return. If that output is too hot and the amp return does not want to see that, bad tones are ahead. And I think we give our drummers a little too much discredit about guitar tones. More cabling, more hassle there methinks. Mic + Powered Speaker seems simpler to me although none of these options are really "ideal"...
Last edited by Will Lane at Nov 11, 2016,
#21
Will Lane dspellman has some perspective that is unique and should be considered. though, often times i find the scenarios he paints serve his agenda quite well, like the pasta pot commercials that make it seem like pouring pasta has always been a nightmare... until now. I often find that more conventional solutions to be just as good or better than many of the solutions he presents. either way, if you see him around expect to see advice pointing to solving problems with DSP/multieffect/amp and speakers sims, full range speakers, and solid state power amps.

there are many solutions to the OP's problem, and it really does boil down to the need for monitoring (or lack of talent in the band). there are better solutions (like getting a small PA to provide full-band monitoring or getting an in-ear solution) and there are band aid solutions (extra cabs, running line outs to powered wedges, completely replacing your setup with sims).
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
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#22
Quote by gumbilicious
Will Lane dspellman has some perspective that is unique and should be considered. though, often times i find the scenarios he paints serve his agenda quite well, like the pasta pot commercials that make it seem like pouring pasta has always been a nightmare... until now. I often find that more conventional solutions to be just as good or better than many of the solutions he presents. either way, if you see him around expect to see advice pointing to solving problems with DSP/multieffect/amp and speakers sims, full range speakers, and solid state power amps.

there are many solutions to the OP's problem, and it really does boil down to the need for monitoring (or lack of talent in the band). there are better solutions (like getting a small PA to provide full-band monitoring or getting an in-ear solution) and there are band aid solutions (extra cabs, running line outs to powered wedges, completely replacing your setup with sims).
I am well aware of his expertise, I just did not really see any added value between his/OP's solution and mine. They both would "work", I just thought mine was less complicated. I don't know, there are too many variables and really a lot of solutions, the only good one is to get a proper monitoring system, which seems to be out of OP's ability at the moment.