#1


This is a backing track for jazz impro. I would usually impro with f minor pentatonic, or a mixolydian scale, but my teacher told me to solo over this with d minor pentatonic. It's in F7! If I solo over it in d minor pentatonic, it sounds very unique and good! How did he figure this out? How does this work?
#2
Well, if the original backing track is in F (video doesn't load for me), D minor makes a lot of sense since it's the relative minor.

Here's F major

F G A Bb C D E

Here's D minor

D E F G A Bb C

Same notes, different order.
Quote by Jet Penguin
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#3
Building on that:

"D minor pentatonic" in the context of F major is just F major pentatonic.

F maj pent: F G A C D
D min pent: D F G A C

The harmonic context dictates what the scale is called.

As for minor vs major -
F minor pent:
F Ab Bb C Eb
F major pent:
F G A C D

Both work, but F major pent includes D and G, root notes in the D7 and Gm7 chords, respectively. F minor pent's Eb and Ab clash with said chords a bit, as well as the C7.

However, it's still F major, and the most important thing is to play notes effectively in the context given
#4
Yes, your teacher is advising D minor pent because (I'm guessing) minor pent patterns are what you know. But effectively it's F major pent, because of the key you're in. Major pent = 1-2-3-5-6, F G A B D. (You don't have to change how you play, but you should find the F note sounds like the keynote in your patterns, not the D notes.)

There will still be moments in this sequence where some of your notes don't quite work. Keep an ear open for those. E.g., on the Bb7 chord, there's an Ab in the chord, while you have an A in the D minor pent scale. That A is going to sound off on that chord. So try D blues scale - adding Ab to the minor pent. (This works as "F major blues" scale in this key. 1-2-b3-3-5-6.)

There are other moments in the last line where some D minor pent notes will sound off. Again, listen out, and I suspect your teacher will move on to addressing those, and ways you can get round it.
#6
Could also use C minor pentatonic against F7. (If you think of F Mixolydian as scale source, then C is at 5 of the scale, and contains a minor 7 arp and a min pentatonic).

Against F7, the C m7 arp gives the 5, b7, 9 and 11 off F (full pentatonic adds in the 1 and b9)

Whereas Dm7 arp gives you 6, 1, 3, 5 off F (much more stable) (full pentaonic adds in 2 and b3 ... more bluesy)

Why measure from Fm and not from C or D? Because F is the root of what's going on at that time (e.g bass plays F, someone plays F7 chord ...) hence these notes are being heard in this context (against F).
#7
Quote by cdgraves
I'm guessing your lesson next week is going to be the F major scale, and then the Bb major scale.


You kinda guessed it, it was the F mixolydian, Bb mixolydian and C mixolydian!
#8
Quote by Colja123
You kinda guessed it, it was the F mixolydian, Bb mixolydian and C mixolydian!


I can't help but to wonder why you're being taught a bunch mixolydian scales before you even understand relative keys but hey, I'm not a teacher so what do I know?
Quote by Jet Penguin
Theory: Not rules, just tools.

Quote by Hail
*note that by fan i mean that guy who wants his friends to know he knows this totally obscure hip band that only he knows about with 236 views on youtube. lookin' at Kev here
#9
Quote by Kevätuhri
I can't help but to wonder why you're being taught a bunch mixolydian scales before you even understand relative keys but hey, I'm not a teacher so what do I know?


Lol I understand relative keys. I have 9 years of music theory. I wasn't talking about F major, I was talking about F dominant 7th... Which you don't solo over with major. Rather you solo over it with mixolydian...
#10
Sometimes music is like a jigsaw puzzle and we learning things which don't seem to have any relation to each other then one additional piece of information makes all the other pieces fit together. It's an excellent example of how learning some basic theory about chord and scale relations often lead you to be able to immediately start using something you already knew in a new way. Nice.
Yes I am guitarded also, nice to meet you.
#11
Most of us in this sub aren't huge fans of chord scale theory (ie for dominant 7th chords, use Mixolydian, on the IV chords, use Lydian, etc), as in continue to use F major through F7 Bb7 C7, but alter the notes to fit the context
#12
Quote by Colja123
Lol I understand relative keys.

The fact that you didn't see the connection between F major and D minor pentatonic kind of suggests otherwise...
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#13
Quote by MaggaraMarine
The fact that you didn't see the connection between F major and D minor pentatonic kind of suggests otherwise...


Dude, stop posting replies like this... You're making yourself look stupid... I understand relative minors and majors. That's as basic as it can get. But newsflash kid. You don't solo over a F7 with a F major scale. That's the part that made yourself look stupid. If you don't understand music theory, don't reply on posts. I was asking what does it mean to solo with d minor OVER F7. Not F major. F7. Big difference, kid. Mixolydian scales fit best for dominant 7th chords. But I do not expect you to understand that...
#14
You're asking for help; don't condescend.

Also, scales and keys are related but not identical concepts. The entire thing is F major, regardless of accidental corrections.
#15


I can't even do this. I'm done. Maybe someone can come up with a more comprehensible answer. This is such a basic concept that I don't even care.

The major pentatonic scale does not contain a seventh interval. And it's relative minor, obviously, lacks the same note. So, since the F major pentatonic does not contain an Eb note nor an E note, neither does D minor pentatonic. So it's completely trivial whether the chord is an F major, an Fmaj7 or an Fdom7 since D minor fits each one perfectly. This is why it looks like you don't understand relative keys - it should be obvious to anyone that has "9 years of music theory" that D minor pentatonic fits an F7 chord like a glove. I can't even realize how it would sound "unique and cool" as it's practically identical to simply playing F major pentatonic over it.

As to full scales, F major vs. F mixolydian, whatever... you can play whatever you like. I wouldn't even think of scales while improvising blues, or anything else for that matter. Does F mixo fit? Sure. Does F major fit? Sure. Does any other scale ever fit? Sure, if you know how to resolve tension.
Quote by Jet Penguin
Theory: Not rules, just tools.

Quote by Hail
*note that by fan i mean that guy who wants his friends to know he knows this totally obscure hip band that only he knows about with 236 views on youtube. lookin' at Kev here
#16
Colja123

Sorry. I was just being honest. If you understand relative keys, I would expect you to also understand that Dm pentatonic and F major pentatonic have the same notes. All of the notes in F major pentatonic are also in F Mixolydian and if you already know what F Mixolydian is, understanding this shouldn't be difficult, especially for someone who has been studying music theory for 9 years.
Quote by AlanHB
Just remember that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Bach Stradivarius 37G
Charvel So Cal
Fender Dimension Bass
Hartke HyDrive 210c
Ibanez BL70
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Yamaha FG720S-12
Yamaha P115
#17
I know d minor and f major scales have the same notes, but my teacher said that I should improvise on this track in f minor pentatonic. Not F major. Sorry...
#18
Quote by MaggaraMarine
Colja123

Sorry. I was just being honest. If you understand relative keys, I would expect you to also understand that Dm pentatonic and F major pentatonic have the same notes. All of the notes in F major pentatonic are also in F Mixolydian and if you already know what F Mixolydian is, understanding this shouldn't be difficult, especially for someone who has been studying music theory for 9 years.


I know this. What I didn't understand is why should I solo over this in D minor, if I soloed over it in F MINOR before...
#19
Colja123

I just re-read the whole thread. Either you didn't understand my point, or I expressed myself REALLY badly! The point was - usually, you don't solo with major scales over dominant 7ths, so how could a relative minor work?

For example:

C7 = C E G Bb

C major = C D E F G A B C

See the Bb and B? It doesn't work. That's why we use mixolydian in dominant 7ths. What didn't make sense to me, was that why use d minor pentatonic, if we usually don't solo over dominant 7ths with majors? I don't know where I left the impression that I don't understand relative keys, since I haven't replied yet when you already said it... You misunderstood my point.

"This is a backing track for jazz impro. I would usually impro with f minor pentatonic, or a mixolydian scale, but my teacher told me to solo over this with d minor pentatonic. It's in F7! If I solo over it in d minor pentatonic, it sounds very unique and good! How did he figure this out? How does this work?"

Where did I imply the connection between F MAJOR and D MINOR? Where did I say how did he figure out d minor out of F MAJOR? NOWHERE! I was looking for a connection between F minor (in which I improvised to this, like my teacher told me to) and d minor. I didn't study jazz, I have 9 years of classical theory, so I don't understand anything more complex than just 7th and 9th chords, so that's what got me confused - "relation between F minor and D minor? What kind of sorcery is this?". Well, thanks for dissing me, I loved it.
#20
Oh, well major could work if you would hit the B note just frequently, and not hold it, but it's not a perfect fit, while mixolydian is!
#21
Colja123
Quote by Colja123
I know this. What I didn't understand is why should I solo over this in D minor, if I soloed over it in F MINOR before...

As MaggaraMarine (one of the most knowledgeable and helpful people on this forum, btw ) says, D minor pentatonic is the same notes as F major pentatonic. As we said earlier, to solo on a tune in F major (or on an F7 chord), "D minor pentatonic" is really working as "F major pentatonic". So that's why it's best to call it F major pentatonic.

F major pent (as opposed to the whole F major scale) fits an F7 chord perfectly well.

To use F minor pentatonic on an F blues is standard practice, because of the odd way blues works. For the F7 chord, F minor pent contains three chord tones (F,C, Eb), along with the b3 (Ab) and 4 (Bb). Despite the Ab and Bb clashing with the A in the chord - or rather because of that clash - it produces the sound we like, a familiar blues sound.

F major pentatonic (= D minor pent) also contains three chord tones (the main triad F-A-C), and adds the 2 (G) and 6 (D). It doesn't have the b7 (Eb), and also lacks the "blue" b3, Ab, so - although it fits well - it won't sound as bluesy as F minor pent.

When it comes to F mixolydian, that contains all 4 chord tones (F A C Eb) - so is a perfect fit - and (like the major pent) adds G and D, and also Bb. Again, it lacks the blues b3, so won;t sound as bluesy as F minor pent, although the b7 does help. Essentiallly, mixolydian mode gives a more "jazzy" effect than either of the pentatonics do, because (a) it contains all the chord tones, and (b) it's a complete 7-note scale.
Last edited by jongtr at Jan 11, 2017,
#22
Quote by jongtr
Colja123Ah, you didn't mention F minor before..

As MaggaraMarine (one of the most knowledgeable and helpful people on this forum, btw ) says, D minor pentatonic is the same notes as F major pentatonic. As we said earlier, to solo on a tune in F major (or on an F7 chord), "D minor pentatonic" is really working as "F major pentatonic". So that's why it's best to call it F major pentatonic.

F major pent (as opposed to the whole F major scale) fits an F7 chord perfectly well.

To use F minor pentatonic on an F blues is standard practice, because of the odd way blues works. For the F7 chord, F minor pent contains three chord tones (F,C, Eb), along with the b3 (Ab) and 4 (Bb). Despite the Ab and Bb clashing with the A in the chord - or rather because of that clash - it produces the sound we like, a familiar blues sound.

F major pentatonic (= D minor pent) also contains three chord tones (the main triad F-A-C), and adds the 2 (G) and 6 (D). It doesn't have the b7 (Eb), and also lacks the "blue" b3, Ab, so - although it fits well - it won't sound as bluesy as F minor pent.

When it comes to F mixolydian, that contains all 4 chord tones (F A C Eb) - so is a perfect fit - and (like the major pent) adds G and D, and also Bb. Again, it lacks the blues b3, so won;t sound as bluesy as F minor pent, although the b7 does help. Essentiallly, mixolydian mode gives a more "jazzy" effect than either of the pentatonics do, because (a) it contains all the chord tones, and (b) it's a complete 7-note scale.


Wait, you're saying that I didn't mention F minor before? I literally copy pasted my entire first post... I'll do it again for you:

"This is a backing track for jazz impro. I would usually impro with f minor pentatonic, or a mixolydian scale, but my teacher told me to solo over this with d minor pentatonic. It's in F7! If I solo over it in d minor pentatonic, it sounds very unique and good! How did he figure this out? How does this work?"

See it now? I mentioned it in the original thread. Anyway, we were talking about F major pentatonic? I thought we were talking about the regular scale? That's why I said that it doesn't fit lol. Yes, playing the major pentatonic works, but not the scale. Well, kind of. Also, thanks for explaining how that weird blues works. It's really a weird thing lol. But as I said before, I did mention F minor pentatonic. Re-read my thread!
#23
Quote by Colja123

The point was - usually, you don't solo with major scales over dominant 7ths, so how could a relative minor work?
Because we (and your teacher) were talking pentatonics, not full scales.
Quote by Colja123

For example:

C7 = C E G Bb

C major = C D E F G A B C

See the Bb and B? It doesn't work. That's why we use mixolydian in dominant 7ths.
Right.
Quote by Colja123

What didn't make sense to me, was that why use d minor pentatonic, if we usually don't solo over dominant 7ths with majors?
Because the major pentatonic fits a dom7 chord. And F major pent is the same as D minor pent, so will fit F7.
Quote by Colja123

"This is a backing track for jazz impro. I would usually impro with f minor pentatonic, or a mixolydian scale, but my teacher told me to solo over this with d minor pentatonic. It's in F7! If I solo over it in d minor pentatonic, it sounds very unique and good! How did he figure this out? How does this work?"

Where did I imply the connection between F MAJOR and D MINOR?
You didn't. But you obviously know that connection (you understand relative major and minor). So we were explaining that that's why it worked. That's how he "figured it out".
F major pent fits an F7 chord, and he told you D minor pent instead perhaps because he thought you understood minor pents and not major pents (maybe he was wrong to assume that?).
Quote by Colja123

Where did I say how did he figure out d minor out of F MAJOR? NOWHERE!
You asked how he figured out D minor pent would fit an F7 chord. Hopefully that's clear now.
Quote by Colja123
I was looking for a connection between F minor (in which I improvised to this, like my teacher told me to) and d minor.
The connection is "blues", basically.
F minor pent = F Ab Bb C Eb
D minor (F major) pent = F G A C D

Put those all together, you have F G Ab A Bb C D Eb. Which is F mixolydian mode with added b3. That's a classic rock'n'roll scale, incorporating both the blue 3rd (Ab) and blue 7th (Eb) along with all the chord tones of both F and Bb. It obviously lacks the E natural of a C7 chord, but that's such a fleeting note anyway (you usually get just one bar of C7 in a 12-bar F blues), and you can bend the Eb up anyway if you want.

But to get deeper, the "F blues scale" - i.e., the notes that a vocal or lead line in an F blues would use - is a little more subtle than either of those pents, or the mixolydian mode. It contains F, Bb and C. It contains a 3rd that moves around between Ab and A. It contains a 7th that is roughly the same as Eb, but can move around between D and E. And it also contains a pitch region between Bb and C which is often identified as B (or Cb), but is in practice a variable embellishment of either Bb or C.
IOW, the blues scale is essentially a 5-note scale, but incorporates a huge amount of pitch flexibility - way more than western (classical) harmony normally allows. Hence the use of dom7 chords as I and IV (to include both the b7 and b3 of the key), and the use of the minor pent of the key as an improvisation shortcut - both of which are approximate accommodations of blues' variability within western fixed pitch concepts.
Last edited by jongtr at Jan 11, 2017,
#24
Quote by jongtr
Because we (and your teacher) were talking pentatonics, not full scales.
Right.
Because the major pentatonic fits a dom7 chord. And F major pent is the same as D minor pent, so will fit F7.
You didn't. But you obviously know that connection (you understand relative major and minor). So we were explaining that that's why it worked. That's how he "figured it out".
F major pent fits an F7 chord, and he told you D minor pent instead perhaps because he thought you understood minor pents and not major pents (maybe he was wrong to assume that?).
You asked how he figured out D minor pent would fit an F7 chord. Hopefully that's clear now.
The connection is "blues", basically.
F minor pent = F Ab Bb C Eb
D minor (F major) pent = F G A C D

Put those all together, you have F G Ab A Bb C D Eb. Which is F mixolydian mode with added b3. That's a classic rock'n'roll scale, incorporating both the blue 3rd (Ab) and blue 7th (Eb) along with all the chord tones of both F and Bb. It obviously lacks the E natural of a C7 chord, but that's such a fleeting note anyway (you usually get just one bar of C7 in a 12-bar F blues), and you can bend the Eb up anyway if you want.

But to get deeper, the "F blues scale" - i.e., the notes that a vocal or lead line in an F blues would use - is a little more subtle than either of those pents, or the mixolydian mode. It contains F, Bb and C. It contains a 3rd that moves around between Ab and A. It contains a 7th that is roughly the same as Eb, but can move around between D and E. And it also contains a pitch region between Bb and C which is often identified as B (or Cb), but is in practice a variable embellishment of either Bb or C.
IOW, the blues scale is essentially a 5-note scale, but incorporates a huge amount of pitch flexibility - way more than western (classical) harmony normally allows. Hence the use of dom7 chords as I and IV (to include both the b7 and b3 of the key), and the use of the minor pent of the key - both of which are approximate accommodations of blues' variability within western fixed pitch concepts.


THANK YOU! Finally. Anyways, I knew that my teacher was talking about pentatonics, but he never said anything about major pentatonics. About the 3rd one, yes, that was my bad for connecting a minor pentatonic with a major scale. Big difference :p. About the 4th one, yes, that's how it probably was, since most people don't understand major pentatonics, and just understand minors! But I already knew all 5 modes of pentatonics, so idk... about the 5th one, I kind of implied that yes, but what I meant was where did he find the connection between f minor and d minor to SUITE the F7 perfectly! Kinda expressed myself in a poor way there. About the 6th one, thanks again for explaining this to me!