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#1
Metal is primarily for male listeners. This seems to be in contradiction with the modern world which is totally non-elitistic and inclusive. Of course women audiences have elevated in the past 10 years but they still seem to affect metal's public discourse only little. Take that how you want it but looking at the one's making, publishing and listening to it reveals a certain fact - if there is a female audience in metal they seem to take a passive kind of a role in it all. It varies from total poserism to silent appreciating of the heavy metal aggression, but women rarely are the loudmouthed one's in the scene whether they have thoughts on the subject or not.

I don't think I am overstating things.
#2
I'm not really sure what there is to discuss here.

I've always found it fairly obvious that Heavy Metal is a more male-centric genre of music.
#3
It makes sense, because Metal Music is what you might call Anti-main stream for lack of a better word and the people who generally feel that way are White males. Metal isn't all inclusive because it's pretty much a White Guy phenomenon and I for one am glad it is that way I personally wouldn't want to relate to or listen to the same thing your local HIV infested Africanized club scene would enjoy but hey thats just me. Also what most females call "metal" isn't metal at all, though there are a few Women out there who actually enjoy good music. Fuck I wish my wife was one of them, no matter what good metal I show her she hates it.
#4
A lot of stupid guys want to feel tough and smart so they pretend they are tough by listening to tough and stupid music. Stupid women don't suffer the same phenomenon typically and get their rocks off elsewhere. Metal isn't special in this respect, plenty of stupid is as stupid does here and in other music scenes.

Plenty of kick ass and great Metal women if you get out there and don't live in front of your computer.

Quote by Falsehammer
Metal isn't all inclusive because it's pretty much a White Guy phenomenon


Only in America and Europe. South Americans (while technically more genetically European than they'd like to admit sometimes,) and Asians (particularly the Japanese) have been here since the beginning.
A heathen, conceivably
but not,

I hope,
I’m not ashamed to be white
Vi doede ikke... vi har aldri levd
Barbarism is the natural state of mankind
Civilization is unnatural

It is a whim of circumstance
an unenlightened one
Last edited by VampireGoldfish at Jan 3, 2017,
#5
But it goes without saying

A heathen, conceivably
but not,

I hope,
I’m not ashamed to be white
Vi doede ikke... vi har aldri levd
Barbarism is the natural state of mankind
Civilization is unnatural

It is a whim of circumstance
an unenlightened one
#7
I think it's a miracle that there is such a phenomenon that embraces male 'supremacy' today as openly as we do. While we're not ultimately aggressive against women, we're not particularly fond of them either. What Falsehammer said rings true to me: "also what most females call "metal" isn't metal at all'. Sure, there are women in metal, as VG advertised, but they seem to take kind of a traditional womans role within it, not wanting to be the centerpiece of all the attention.

I just think that this topic should be discussed as it's a strong element in what made this music special. It's not male supremacist as islamic culture but more like traditional European way of life. Ok, I am starting to sound like ThuleanPerspective here, but it really is completely accurate way of describing womans role in heavy metal music.
#8
Quote by Ozzy87_2
Sure, there are women in metal, as VG advertised, but they seem to take kind of a traditional womans role within it, not wanting to be the centerpiece of all the attention.
What do you mean by this?

Personally, I've never found hyper-masculinity to be an incredibly important aspect of the music. I suppose you could argue it's more important in traditional Heavy Metal, with the Conan the Barbarian imagery and whatnot, but I don't really give a shit either way. That's why I'm not really sure what there is to discuss. It's clearly male-centric, as I said, but that's just the way it is, and there's nothing more to say as far as I'm concerned.
#9
the history of gender roles in general give a decent explanation. Being accused of poseurism or having to qualify true fan-ness might have something to do with it. Being quieter would be easier than trying to "get with the boys" or otherwise flaunt a role which you're recognised as not typically filling, and are therefore recognised as "different". As a result there's a built-in difference (lots of men vs not as many women) which will always make the latter stand out and be seen as, well, different.

Forcing diversity isn't healthy, but there are a decent number of women in metal, especially more modern acts. Well, more than some would like to pretend. Once you go into the more experimental and extreme areas of metal women actually pop up a lot more frequently, perhaps because in fringe areas of music (I know people want to call metal fringe but, come on) pretty much everyone foregoes the social element and heads straight for the sounds.
Quote by EndTheRapture51
who pays five hundred fucking dollars for a burger
Last edited by Banjocal at Jan 3, 2017,
#10
Quote by Ozzy87_2
I think it's a miracle that there is such a phenomenon that embraces male 'supremacy' today as openly as we do. While we're not ultimately aggressive against women, we're not particularly fond of them either. What Falsehammer said rings true to me: "also what most females call "metal" isn't metal at all'. Sure, there are women in metal, as VG advertised, but they seem to take kind of a traditional womans role within it, not wanting to be the centerpiece of all the attention.

I just think that this topic should be discussed as it's a strong element in what made this music special. It's not male supremacist as islamic culture but more like traditional European way of life. Ok, I am starting to sound like ThuleanPerspective here, but it really is completely accurate way of describing womans role in heavy metal music.



ALSO FOR THE RECORD I AM VERY FOND OF WOMAN

FUCK ANY AND ALL ALTERNATIVES


This is a rather two dimensional way of looking at the circumstances and 'culture' surrounding this music. How many shows, expos or groups of Metal folks do you associate with? The type of woman you are describing is an absolute rarity amongst them in my years of experience. Most are just drinking headbangers out for a good time or artsy-fartsy folks. Even the female Metal artist out there generally fall under those descriptions and have since the 80's in my experience. Not to say the archetype you are describing doesn't exist among them but they also tend to hardly be "Metal heads" when they do!

Comparing them to Jaded Lungs, Derketa, Mythic, Nuclear Death, Runhild Gammelsæter, etc and they hardly stand a chance on the scale of Metal-ness. Can you name any Metal musicians that fit your description? I can't.


ALSO FOR THE RECORD I AM VERY FOND OF WOMAN

FUCK ANY AND ALL ALTERNATIVES
A heathen, conceivably
but not,

I hope,
I’m not ashamed to be white
Vi doede ikke... vi har aldri levd
Barbarism is the natural state of mankind
Civilization is unnatural

It is a whim of circumstance
an unenlightened one
Last edited by VampireGoldfish at Jan 3, 2017,
#11
Honestly let's dispel some stuff here...

Lemmy? Loved woman. Fucked woman. Respected woman. ("The blokes who didn't never got any, where's the fun in that?") Performed and created art with woman.

Quorthon? Woman were pretty much his favorite thing and competed only with whiskey and lying as his favorite past time.

King Diamond? Pretty average joe opinion of woman, they're people like any other people.

Go to a Metal show and the woman ain't none different than anyone else there, they shout along to the DJ playing Judas Priest in between sets just as terribly as the dudes. Listen to Diane's Kamikaze Fun Machine and tell me she isn't just as, if not more, passionate and knowledgeable about The Metal as the lot of you while also being just a normal Metal chick.

Seriously check her out....

https://wfmu.org/archiveplayer/?show=69705&archive=146119&starttime=
A heathen, conceivably
but not,

I hope,
I’m not ashamed to be white
Vi doede ikke... vi har aldri levd
Barbarism is the natural state of mankind
Civilization is unnatural

It is a whim of circumstance
an unenlightened one
Last edited by VampireGoldfish at Jan 3, 2017,
#12
Girls don't like metal because most of the guys that like and make metal are dirty losers whose lack of social grace is surpassed only by their neglect of personal hygiene. Who wants to hang around that? At least Avenged Sevenfold or whatever look like they take showers and get their clothes from somewhere other than the Salvation Army.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#13
I'll have you know I look absolutely fabulous on a daily basis and smell like the morning after it rains.
#14
Quote by theogonia777
Girls don't like metal because most of the guys that like and make metal are dirty losers whose lack of social grace is surpassed only by their neglect of personal hygiene. Who wants to hang around that? At least Avenged Sevenfold or whatever look like they take showers and get their clothes from somewhere other than the Salvation Army.


So you're implying "girls" decide what music they like based solely on if they are attracted to the men in it or not.

You're not the best source for what "girls want," i'm afraid.
A heathen, conceivably
but not,

I hope,
I’m not ashamed to be white
Vi doede ikke... vi har aldri levd
Barbarism is the natural state of mankind
Civilization is unnatural

It is a whim of circumstance
an unenlightened one
#15
A whole bunch of stupid shit has been said in this thread but that was the worse.
A heathen, conceivably
but not,

I hope,
I’m not ashamed to be white
Vi doede ikke... vi har aldri levd
Barbarism is the natural state of mankind
Civilization is unnatural

It is a whim of circumstance
an unenlightened one
#16
Quote by VampireGoldfish
So you're implying "girls" decide what music they like based solely on if they are attracted to the men in it or not.

You're not the best source for what "girls want," i'm afraid.
But Kristen (K) is a girl (G), and girls always know what girls desire (D) because they're actually a complex hivemind like in Penumbra: Black Plague.

If

K = G and G know D, then K knows what G D.

Philosophy to the rescue!

Sorry. I'll go back to the pit now.
Quote by EndTheRapture51
who pays five hundred fucking dollars for a burger
Last edited by Banjocal at Jan 3, 2017,
#18
WE'RE HERE FOR THE BOYS










WHERE ALL THE PRETTY BOYS AT?
A heathen, conceivably
but not,

I hope,
I’m not ashamed to be white
Vi doede ikke... vi har aldri levd
Barbarism is the natural state of mankind
Civilization is unnatural

It is a whim of circumstance
an unenlightened one
#20
Quote by VampireGoldfish
So you're implying "girls" decide what music they like based solely on if they are attracted to the men in it or not.

You're not the best source for what "girls want," i'm afraid.


Not at all. Girls just aren't involved in the scene because nobody wants to hang out with dirty people unless they are a hippie or volunteer at a homeless shelter or are just dirty themselves. Besides, giving four examples doesn't really mean anything. Posting pictures of four different pandas as proof that they clearly exist in the wild doesn't make them any less endangered. Posting pictures of Marquette King and Reggie Roby and saying that there are, in fact, black punters does not change the fact that black punters are a rarity in football. What point are you trying to make exactly?

Quote by Ironic Maiden
I'll have you know I look absolutely fabulous on a daily basis and smell like the morning after it rains.


You look like a nerd and the morning after it rains smells musky.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#21
i think it's also a cultural thing. a lot of cultures pride conformity and "staying in the norm." now while that has been challenged lately, it is only nominally so. they don't really mean everything when they say "question everything." how that applies to this situation is this: in a society that breeds conformity, most people are not going to want to step outside of their comfort zones to try something new and different. this is why an aspiring young female musician is probably going to be singing Mariah Carey over Rob Halford, or learning to play a classical instrument rather than guitar. people are more drawn to what is comfortable and familiar than what is new and different. this applies to men as well.
#22
Quote by theogonia777
Not at all. Girls just aren't involved in the scene because nobody wants to hang out with dirty people unless they are a hippie or volunteer at a homeless shelter or are just dirty themselves.


Have you been to Metal shows? Clean ladies and dirty ladies alike are present. Just like the dudes. Because ladies are just people too, nothing special about them. Obviously they are a minority but not because "eww, dirty people!" They are not present the same reason why any group of people who typically don't attend Metal shows are not there, because it ain't their bag. Your assertion that clean cut people would attract more females because that's what ladies want, cute guys is backwards as all hell and is traditional sexism 101, not even your new age "Everything is sexist," sexism.


Quote by theogonia777
Besides, giving four examples doesn't really mean anything. Posting pictures of four different pandas as proof that they clearly exist in the wild doesn't make them any less endangered. Posting pictures of Marquette King and Reggie Roby and saying that there are, in fact, black punters does not change the fact that black punters are a rarity in football.


I don't have all the time in the world to post the plethora of photographic evidence contrary to your opinion that is available to anyone, let alone my personal collection. I would die at the keyboard. Go to a show and see how many women are there and take note of, just from their appearance, how different a background they have from each other. You got your drunk girls, your old school thrasher ladies, your artsy chicks, your collectors, the quiet angry types, the loud singing type...

Quote by theogonia777
What point are you trying to make exactly?


My point is the absurdity of what you said made my fiance cackle out loud. Because it was absurd.

Nobody should challenge the fact that this has a much larger male demographic. Just not for the reasons you stated. Maybe, as people first and foremost, they just ain't into the music?

Fancy that!
A heathen, conceivably
but not,

I hope,
I’m not ashamed to be white
Vi doede ikke... vi har aldri levd
Barbarism is the natural state of mankind
Civilization is unnatural

It is a whim of circumstance
an unenlightened one
Last edited by VampireGoldfish at Jan 3, 2017,
#23
Quote by theogonia777
Not at all. Girls just aren't involved in the scene because nobody wants to hang out with dirty people unless they are a hippie or volunteer at a homeless shelter or are just dirty themselves.


Have you been to Metal shows? Clean ladies and dirty ladies alike are present. Just like the dudes. Because ladies are just people too, nothing special about them. Obviously they are a minority but not because "eww, dirty people!" They are not present the same reason why any group of people who typically don't attend Metal shows are not there, because it ain't their bag. Your assertion that clean cut people would attract more females because "that's what ladies want, cute guys," is backwards as all hell and is traditional sexism 101, not even your new age "Everything is sexist," sexism.


Quote by theogonia777
Besides, giving four examples doesn't really mean anything. Posting pictures of four different pandas as proof that they clearly exist in the wild doesn't make them any less endangered. Posting pictures of Marquette King and Reggie Roby and saying that there are, in fact, black punters does not change the fact that black punters are a rarity in football.


I don't have all the time in the world to post the plethora of photographic evidence contrary to your opinion that is available to anyone, let alone my personal collection. I would die at the keyboard. Go to a show and see how many women are there and take note of, just from their appearance, how different a background they have from each other. You got your drunk girls, your old school thrasher ladies, your artsy chicks, your collectors, the quiet angry types, the loud singing type...

Quote by theogonia777
What point are you trying to make exactly?


My point is the absurdity of what you said made my fiance cackle out loud. Because it was absurd.
A heathen, conceivably
but not,

I hope,
I’m not ashamed to be white
Vi doede ikke... vi har aldri levd
Barbarism is the natural state of mankind
Civilization is unnatural

It is a whim of circumstance
an unenlightened one
#24
The point was that it was supposed to be absurd. I don't understand how you didn't realize that. The dirty kid that claims to smell like moldy lawn realized it. Why didn't you? You don't happen to make watches or hats, do you?
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#26
Quote by theogonia777
The point was that it was supposed to be absurd. I don't understand how you didn't realize that. The dirty kid that claims to smell like moldy lawn realized it. Why didn't you? You don't happen to make watches or hats, do you?
To be fair, I wasn't completely sure it was a joke. I just treated it like it was because whether you meant it as a joke or not, it was a joke.
#27
Quote by Ironic Maiden
To be fair, I wasn't completely sure it was a joke. I just treated it like it was because whether you meant it as a joke or not, it was a joke.


This.
A heathen, conceivably
but not,

I hope,
I’m not ashamed to be white
Vi doede ikke... vi har aldri levd
Barbarism is the natural state of mankind
Civilization is unnatural

It is a whim of circumstance
an unenlightened one
#28
Quote by VampireGoldfish
This.


But you clearly didn't treat it as a joke. So can can you "this" when you didn't "[that]" even?
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#29
Yes
A heathen, conceivably
but not,

I hope,
I’m not ashamed to be white
Vi doede ikke... vi har aldri levd
Barbarism is the natural state of mankind
Civilization is unnatural

It is a whim of circumstance
an unenlightened one
#30
Plenty of chicks into hard music, but it most certainly is a male-dominated scene. Often, the simplest explanation is best way to understand, and what I think is the simplest explanation is this:

Testosterone.

Metal is largely dependent on aggressive tendencies, which is fueled by testosterone. Young men's bodies are fucking raging with testosterone pretty much all the time, which leads to those aggressive tendencies. Pissed off? Pick up a guitar & listen to what comes out of it. Probably some muscular, aggressive riffage & other chaotic sounds. Same with drums. Women typically have a lower testosterone count than men, so are generally a bit less aggressive.

I think it also has to do with the origins of rock music. Before the Women's Liberation movement of the 60's, girls weren't exactly encouraged to play music, especially considering the religious aspects in 1st World countries of the 40's, 50's, & 60's. (Rock music generally being viewed as a gateway to sexual deviance.) After the Women's Lib movement, it became a little more socially acceptable for girls to play rock music (Runaways, Blondies, etc.) Then, in the 80's heavy metal became popular & sexy women were a part of the look... even the dudes were trying to look like chicks!

Plenty of other things come into play as well... touring is almost a modern-day version of crusading. The men go out into the world, looking to convert people into followers. But on these journeys, domestic life isn't tolerated very well... days without showers, shitty food, lot's of alcohol, horrible smells & terrible attitudes. Women typically being the domestic creatures they are have a lot less tolerance for that kind of thing. These days women are a little more tolerant, but not so much as men. Just the same as men are usually a little more ready to join the Army, it's all the same.
#31
I definitely think it's still very male dominated but there are certain sub-genres which seem far more friendly towards female listeners.

Doom Rock is a good example. A high number of female fronted bands, e.g. Messa, Purson, Blood Ceremony, Vodun. It's slower, often less extreme and gory than genres like Death Metal.

Go to a Cannibal Corpse gig and an Uncle Acid and the Deadbeats gig and notice the difference.
Gibson SG 2016 1960's Tribute
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#32
you ever been to a metal concert I mean if you were a 120 pound female would you want in a mosh pit with a bunch of 250 pound intoxicated dudes beating the hell out of each other I mean think about it physics are against it
Wise man once said, " If you ever get lost in the woods, just start jacking off someone will see you."
#33
Quote by rich.bendall
Vodun


Also at least in the really slow funeral doom and in drone metal, you get a decent number of female fans. Bands like Monarch! and Bismuth are starting to pop up a bit more, too.
Quote by EndTheRapture51
who pays five hundred fucking dollars for a burger
#34
You all missed the Hair Metal days. Plenty of hot women in the 80s. Problem is modern metal is about demons, possession and societal angst. Girls like party music. Rock has become too serious since grunge - head down, angry face, no fun. No songs anymore about getting laid, getting fucked up and causing mayhem. Now all the party music is hip-hop/rap so all the girls flock to that music these days.
Last edited by Sayonara6String at Jan 4, 2017,
#35
Quote by Falsehammer
IMetal isn't all inclusive because it's pretty much a White Guy phenomenon and I for one am glad it is that way I personally wouldn't want to relate to or listen to the same thing your local HIV infested Africanized club scene.


What the fuck?
OBEY THE MIGHTY SHITKICKER
#36
Quote by VampireGoldfish
ALSO FOR THE RECORD I AM VERY FOND OF WOMAN


I am not saying you aren't but that culture you embrace is.

Quote by guitgrinder
Testosterone.

But on these journeys, domestic life isn't tolerated very well... days without showers, shitty food, lot's of alcohol, horrible smells & terrible attitudes. Women typically being the domestic creatures they are have a lot less tolerance for that kind of thing. These days women are a little more tolerant, but not so much as men.


Yes, heavy metal is filled by element's that aren't well suited for women like aggression for example. It's like a language that is spoken by male's only, but can be also understood by anyone other who is willing to listen.
#37
How often do you actually meet women involved in metal? Everything you've said does not resonate at all with any actual metal woman I've met. Plenty of outspoken, aggressive birds that would crack you in the jaw if you said any of this to their face, just like there's plenty of beardy tough guys who shite themselves at the first sign of actual physical conflict. If metal is where you get your masculine identity from then I'm imagining you probably fall into the latter camp.

The narrative that woman haven't historically been part of the creation of metal/rock music is utter cack typically peddled by pseudo-feminist journalists who prefer to throw the musical accomplishments of prior generations of women under the bus in order to solidify their victim complex.
Quote by ChemicalFire
The point of underground bands is their not popular or famous most of the time. Thus there is a good chance they suck.
#38
Quote by Sayonara6String
Girls like party music.

Oh lord. Maybe you guys should go ask some women what they think about metal and why they do or don't like it instead of coming up with weird explanations like this.
Who are you? The prince of darkness? Don't you have any friends?


#39
Quote by eazy-c
How often do you actually meet women involved in metal? Everything you've said does not resonate at all with any actual metal woman I've met. Plenty of outspoken, aggressive birds that would crack you in the jaw if you said any of this to their face, just like there's plenty of beardy tough guys who shite themselves at the first sign of actual physical conflict. If metal is where you get your masculine identity from then I'm imagining you probably fall into the latter camp.

The narrative that woman haven't historically been part of the creation of metal/rock music is utter cack typically peddled by pseudo-feminist journalists who prefer to throw the musical accomplishments of prior generations of women under the bus in order to solidify their victim complex.


For every woman who's shaped rock or metal music there's dozens of men, though. And as you see in other areas of society, women's achievements aren't marginalised by feminists so much as by the bias, conscious or unconscious, of a male-dominated society. If I'm struggling to think of women who've had a pivotal role in the music's development, I don't think it's because feminists are hiding it from me.

Anyway, some of the posts in this thread are absolutely horrendous, particularly the open racism from Falsehammer and the celebration of sexism as 'traditional European life' from Ozzy. Shame on you guys.

Quote by guitgrinder
I think it also has to do with the origins of rock music. Before the Women's Liberation movement of the 60's, girls weren't exactly encouraged to play music, especially considering the religious aspects in 1st World countries of the 40's, 50's, & 60's. (Rock music generally being viewed as a gateway to sexual deviance.) After the Women's Lib movement, it became a little more socially acceptable for girls to play rock music (Runaways, Blondies, etc.) Then, in the 80's heavy metal became popular & sexy women were a part of the look... even the dudes were trying to look like chicks!


Girls still aren't encouraged to play rock music, unfortunately. Ask anyone who's in a band and they'll tell you about a time someone's assumed they're a groupie, assumed they're there for their looks, groped them, all the rest of it. 'Sexy women' being props in metal/hard rock is no victory for women, either.

Part of the issue on the fan side of things, which has been touched on a little here, is that women are somehow more authentic if they act like 'one of the guys', if they drink beer, swear and mosh. That's not right at all.

Last thing is that metal attracts socially awkward boys - which most of us were at one point or another - and these boys tend not to understand women well. They don't get to understand women through the music they listen to, so if they don't have any other source as they grow up they end up with daft attitudes. 'NO WIMMENZ ON THE INTERNET' was a staple phrase of UG for the years I was around here regularly and may still be.
Quote by justinb904
im more of a social godzilla than chameleon

Quote by MetalMessiah665
Alright, I'll give them a try, Japanese Black Speed rarely disappoints.

Quote by azzemojo
Hmm judging from your pic you'd fit in more with a fat busted tribute.
Last edited by duncang at Jan 4, 2017,
#40
Quote by Kytokinesis
Oh lord. Maybe you guys should go ask some women what they think about metal and why they do or don't like it instead of coming up with weird explanations like this.


Everyone likes party music though.

There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
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