Page 1 of 2
#1
Hi, I got a big fender amp combo and I would like to instead of miking the amp which i can't becuase of the place that Im playing at (to many problems) i have to only use the P.A system as my speakers.

What do I have to have to buy to connect my amp combo directly to the P.A. system and get basicaly the same sound as if it was miked (with the mic). So instead of using my amp's speaker I want to use the P.A. system's speaker and still get an excellent sound. Alternatives (cheap to expensive please I'm broke lol, but i'm playing and will play at a higher pro level in a way, so i need excellent ideas that can really help my sound).
Last edited by Jeanpr002 at Jan 30, 2017,
#2
You can use a preamp pedal to make your amp head sound different. Usually what you'd do is run the preamp pedal into the input with the amp set clean, or the into the effects loop return if you have one, bypassing the amp's preamp entirely. You still need the actual amp to do the...amplification.

The BB preamp and pedals like the Leeds are totally different. The BB is basically just a boost pedal with some headroom and EQ, and is more designed to tweak your sound straight into the amp than to replace the built-in preamp or make it sound like something totally different.

If you're using one of these pedals, it's pretty unlikely that it's going to "help" with the clean sound and the distortion at the same time, at least not in a big way. If you need a pedal to do that, maybe you just have a crappy amp. These pedals can't do it all by themselves and generally you're not going to just buy one and magically make everything sound better across the board, especially "without touching anything." Adding a preamp pedal to boost your OD channel, or something like the Leeds to sound like a Hiwatt (not really a clean preamp, BTW) is one thing, but if your amp's base clean sound sucks, it's unlikely that a preamp pedal is going to fix it.

What amp do you have?
#3
+1 on what Roc said.

I have a Sansamp British that I use as either the preamp, straight into the FX return, as as a OD pedal into the amp input. My amp's clean sound is very good, and it works well as an OD pedal in that application. OTOH, I don't like the gain channel so I can use the British as a preamp for OD sounds. I can't see it helping a poor preamp, but if if the power amp is OK, it might work well as a preamp. If you use it as a preamp, you won't have channel switching, unless you have two preamp pedals that you switch between.
#4
Roc8995
First, I dont have any amp (neaither combo or head) thats the thing, I play at my church and all i use is a multieffect boss me 80 directly to a D.i box and then to a P.A system. I don't want to buy an amp(neither combo or head) because they are expensive as hell. Second, I have never use pedals(seperatly) before just a multieefect so thats why i dont have any knowledge about what am i supposed to buy, etc.

I just want a clean sound as my base sound, then I want to add effect pedals such as over drive, distortion, you know the basics, over that clean sound(just like if I had a amplifier and I equalize my base clean sound on that amp and then go and work my effect pedals over that sound(remember that i'm only using one channel). Now, if theres is any alternative for that, what are those pedals or alternative or if I have to buy an amp head to get that clean sound as my base guitar sound because there's no other choice then let me know. Please explain if you can also.
#5
You already have a preamp section in the ME-80, it's labeled right on the top. What you're missing is amp and cab simulation. It's important to get cab simulation and not just the preamp, so the Leeds would work ok but the BB won't.

At this point I'd suggest getting something like a Line 6 POD. It will do amp and cab simulation, it's meant to be run straight into the PA, and you can set up presets and everything directly on the pedal. It would replace your Boss with the effects but it also has the amp and cab simulation. It's the easiest solution, and designed exactly for what you want.

If you still want a pedal to run between your Boss and the PA, the Leeds might work ok, but the amp and cab simulation on the POD units is better, and a lot more flexible, and all self-contained. A used POD is about the same price as the Leeds. If you get a floor POD like the PODXT Live or PODX3 Live or HD400 or HD500 it's basically the same thing as what you have with the ME80 except more flexible and designed to be run into a PA.
#6
What Roc8995 said. What's your budget? A used Line6 POD HD500X can be had for ~$350 or less here. Atomic Amplifire ($500 used) is also a good option if you don't need an expression pedal built in.
Guitars:
Ibanez RG1570 Prestige
Jackson Kelly KE3 - MIJ (Distortion/Jazz)
Jackson DKMGT Dinky (EMG 81/85)
ESP E-II Eclipse Custom (JB/'59)
ESP LTD EC-1001FR (EMG 81/60)
Fender MIM Strat

Amps:
Mesa/Boogie Dual Rectifier Roadster 212
Laney IronHeart IRT-Studio
Peavey Vypyr 30
Peavey ReValver Amp Sims
TOOOO many T.C. Electronic Pedals. . .
#7
metalmingee Roc8995

I just don't want a multieffects for personal reasons, the question will be, what do i need to buy if I dont want a amp head, what alternatives do i need to buy if i dont want to buy an amp combo neither head?
#8
You already have a multieffects. If you don't want a different one that has the features you need, your options are going to be limited.

As to what you need, that was answered in previous posts. You need an amp and cab sim, which you can get from a POD or one of the Tech 21 pedals or one of a handful of other pedals that advertises an amp and cab sim. Most decent amp/cab sims are going to come in a multi-fx, though. If you don't want one, just get the Leeds and call it a day
#11
metalmingee Roc8995 Tony Done What about if I buy a amp combo such as an fender hot rode deluxe III tube amp that is a big amp? Can I connect a line out/ preamp out into a console(pa system)? If i can do it will the sound of the speaker of that amp will stop or it will sound anyway?
#12
Jeanpr002
How about one of the newer Mini Heads that have Direct Outputs with speaker emulation built in? You can plug these directly into the PA and not have any sound from the speaker.

Peavey has the 6505, ValveKing, and Classic models. Laney has the 3-Channel IronHeart IRT-Studio which is a rack mount form factor. All of these amps are mostly tube.

I'm more familiar with the Laney IRT-Studio and have one on the way actually. I know that it can be run without a speaker cabinet hooked up and you can send the signal to the PA after the power tubes and a cabinet emulation (impulse) is applied for a mic'ed amp sound. They run about $400 used but you can sometimes find a deal for closer to $300.
Guitars:
Ibanez RG1570 Prestige
Jackson Kelly KE3 - MIJ (Distortion/Jazz)
Jackson DKMGT Dinky (EMG 81/85)
ESP E-II Eclipse Custom (JB/'59)
ESP LTD EC-1001FR (EMG 81/60)
Fender MIM Strat

Amps:
Mesa/Boogie Dual Rectifier Roadster 212
Laney IronHeart IRT-Studio
Peavey Vypyr 30
Peavey ReValver Amp Sims
TOOOO many T.C. Electronic Pedals. . .
#13
metalmingee

Thats a great idea i was looking for amp heads too but the thing is that if I can use an amp combo as well will the sound of the speaker stop once you connect the amp to the PA system or will it still sound?

Why do I want to know that? Well lets say that one day I want to put mic infront of the speaker of the amp because I'll play on a big event, then I will had two choices. So thats why i want to know that.
#14
Quote by Jeanpr002
metalmingee

Thats a great idea i was looking for amp heads too but the thing is that if I can use an amp combo as well will the sound of the speaker stop once you connect the amp to the PA system or will it still sound?


This depends on the actual amp - they are made differently! I know the Laney IRT-Studio works this way - just buy a cab and connect it when you want sound without a PA.

Quote by Jeanpr002
metalmingee
Why do I want to know that? Well lets say that one day I want to put mic infront of the speaker of the amp because I'll play on a big event, then I will had two choices. So thats why i want to know that.


Again it depends on the amp. Some will allow you to run DI into the mixer/PA and run a cab if you chose for monitoring or mic'ing purposes.
Guitars:
Ibanez RG1570 Prestige
Jackson Kelly KE3 - MIJ (Distortion/Jazz)
Jackson DKMGT Dinky (EMG 81/85)
ESP E-II Eclipse Custom (JB/'59)
ESP LTD EC-1001FR (EMG 81/60)
Fender MIM Strat

Amps:
Mesa/Boogie Dual Rectifier Roadster 212
Laney IronHeart IRT-Studio
Peavey Vypyr 30
Peavey ReValver Amp Sims
TOOOO many T.C. Electronic Pedals. . .
#15
the irt-studio head will do all of that.
the fender and other mini heads won't. many of them don't have a load so that you can safely unplug the cabinet. Some of them will silence the speaker for you but it also depends on where they are taking their line-out from.
Jumping on dat gear sig train.
PRS Hollowbody II / BKP Warpigs
Strandberg OS6T / BKP Aftermath
Strandberg OS7 / Lace Poopsticks
Skervesen Raptor 7FF / BKP Warpigs
Skervesen Raptor 6 NTB / BKP Juggernauts
Hapas Sludge 7 FF / Hapas Leviathan
Anderson Baritom / Motorcity Nuke BKP Sinner Anderson H2+
Warmoth Baritone / BKP Piledriver
Ibanez Rg2120x / BKP Nailbomb

Blackstar ID:Core Beam
#16
AcousticMirror metalmingee so what should i look when looking for a amp combo? What lines out or jacks, etc should i need in an amp in order to pass the sound to the pa system and at the same time the speaker of that amp will "shut up" an let the PA system speak for him.

P.S
(I really would like a fender since they are the best in sound, i mean in my opinion, plus i see a lot of guitar pros that use a lot the twin reverb and the hot rod.)
Last edited by Jeanpr002 at Jan 30, 2017,
#17
Jeanpr002 Check out the manual for the IRT-Studio for a reference. It tells you what all of the connections do and how they work together. You literally have 5 options to pull the signal out of the amp silently (using the internal load for the speaker cab) depending on what you want. Check out the block diagram they have as to what parts of the signal and emulations come out where.

From there, figure out how you want to use things and find a combo amp that has those features if you want a combo. The IRT-Studio sitting on a cab is always an option too if you can deal with the 15W.

You also have devices like the Mesa Cab Clone and Two Notes Torpedo that go in place of a cabinet and provide DI outputs.
Guitars:
Ibanez RG1570 Prestige
Jackson Kelly KE3 - MIJ (Distortion/Jazz)
Jackson DKMGT Dinky (EMG 81/85)
ESP E-II Eclipse Custom (JB/'59)
ESP LTD EC-1001FR (EMG 81/60)
Fender MIM Strat

Amps:
Mesa/Boogie Dual Rectifier Roadster 212
Laney IronHeart IRT-Studio
Peavey Vypyr 30
Peavey ReValver Amp Sims
TOOOO many T.C. Electronic Pedals. . .
#18
I run a H&K Redbox speaker emulator which goes between my amp and speaker, so the speaker out goes into the Redbox, the out of the Redbox takes XLR to mixer, and the other end has a speaker cable that runs to the cab. That way you're getting the power amp sound and acts as another speaker. It sounds wonderful.
#19
Imetalmingeediabolical what should be better, buying a amp head an using the pa system as my speaker always or any kind of speaker available, or buy a amp combo(normal amplifier with speaker and preamp all in one) and still use the pa system as my speaker( while using the preamp of my amp combo only) and also use it sometimes miced when the occation comes?

Also if i buy that amp combo ("the whole package in one") as i said before, can i conect an preamp out line or line out or i dont know how is it called, and connect it to my pa system? the speaker will shut up or the speaker will still sound no matter what i do and what i connect to it?(cuz remember i will be trying to use the pa system speakers as a replacement to the speaker that is built in in that amp). Please explain @ Roc8995
#21
Tony Done So can I do instead of putting a mic, connect a line? What I mean is, can i run that Di from the effects out AND also a line that has the sound that should refletc on the speaker(im guessing thats the line out or preampout)? Or just a line that can do all together? The thing is that i cant use a mic because of the place that Im in, and also i use in ears. Roc8995 metalmingee Tony Done diabolical AcousticMirror
#22
If you have a PA, best and cheapest way is to run a mic in front of the cab, period.

There are some issues with miking a cab - finding the sweet spot every time, variation in volume, etc. thus some amps have direct out which usually sounds awful. The FX send out sounds similarly awful, unless you use some kind of speaker simulation box or plugin to simulate a mic capturing a moving speaker.
Some of these simulation are fine, like the Redbox, some Torpedo units, etc. and are useful for some musicians to either provide full sound thru them or supplement a miked speaker. In my case - that box stays connected to my rig and I just have a soundman plug in a XLR DI cable into it and he's done. I don't have to deal with sound setup.
#23
diabolical so if I buy a speaker cabinet simulator then I can put either the direct out or FX send (of whatever amp I want to buy) to that D.I. Box and to the P.A.? (Either direct out or FX send) which should I try and why?(outputs)

Also, I connect that pedal simulator after the amp and direct to the D.I box? or how is it work and how do I set it up (atleast that pedal sim with the amp and D.I)?
#25
diabolical i saw the video but do you know if that redbox can be connect it to another D.I and then to the P.A. or it goes directly to the P.A? Also it say something about the in input and thru input that I didnt undertand.

Edit: also is it passive or active, please?
Last edited by Jeanpr002 at Jan 30, 2017,
#26
Active...I guess...

It has 2 uses, say you want to use a pedal and give it cab emulation, you put the Redbox last in chain.
Say, you want to capture the who chain+the amp, you run the speaker out into the Redbox, the Thru with another speaker cable into the speaker. Then there's an xlr that goes to the mixer. Basically, the Redbox taps your speaker output and sends signal to the board.
Technically, you could use fx send too but you'd miss power section coloration and your amp might not work as stage monitor. The Redbox works off phantom power from the board or 9v adapter.
I still don't understand why you don't want to put a mic in front of the cab and forget about it.
#27
diabolical
Or buy an amp with these features built in
Guitars:
Ibanez RG1570 Prestige
Jackson Kelly KE3 - MIJ (Distortion/Jazz)
Jackson DKMGT Dinky (EMG 81/85)
ESP E-II Eclipse Custom (JB/'59)
ESP LTD EC-1001FR (EMG 81/60)
Fender MIM Strat

Amps:
Mesa/Boogie Dual Rectifier Roadster 212
Laney IronHeart IRT-Studio
Peavey Vypyr 30
Peavey ReValver Amp Sims
TOOOO many T.C. Electronic Pedals. . .
#28
metalmingee diabolical Im trying to buy an amp tho, I just cant mic it because of the place that I play at, my church, is a veru smal place and for other reasons they dont permit amp miking, also I saw that the redbox is an d.i box also. To be honest it doesnt sound clear and i guess thats what im not looking for.

Can i instead buy a cab sim, the best one out there that can just give me that sound that my amp speaker would? (Almos the exact sound) is not gonna be the exact 100 percent becuas is not miced but i guess it will sound similar and help in doing what the amp speaker sound would do)
#29
Two note torpedo live
Jumping on dat gear sig train.
PRS Hollowbody II / BKP Warpigs
Strandberg OS6T / BKP Aftermath
Strandberg OS7 / Lace Poopsticks
Skervesen Raptor 7FF / BKP Warpigs
Skervesen Raptor 6 NTB / BKP Juggernauts
Hapas Sludge 7 FF / Hapas Leviathan
Anderson Baritom / Motorcity Nuke BKP Sinner Anderson H2+
Warmoth Baritone / BKP Piledriver
Ibanez Rg2120x / BKP Nailbomb

Blackstar ID:Core Beam
#30
Jeanpr002 The best option to be able to use YOUR amp direct to PA is an attenuator like the Two Notes units, Redbox, etc. You can get them where you can send the signal to the PA through a direct out and send the power amp signal BACK to the amp as well to hear it from the speaker, or ones that completely remove the sound from the amp's speaker and just knock down the power amp signal and send it to PA. All of them SHOULD have speaker simulation, be sure you get one that does.

The power amp signal is from the spade speaker clips coming from the amp that are attached to the speaker. If you disconnect those speaker clips to use them as your signal, they HAVE to have some form of proper impedance load and attenuation or you will blow something up. Attenuators for these purposes will typically have both.

But essentially what you will end up with is a signal similar to the amp-in-a-box pedals I have talked to you about before. The Tech 21 Sansamp Character series. They can go directly on your board, take up much less room than a big physical amp, and will probably give you similar sound quality or at least be a lot easier to use. And there are many other units like this as well. No physical amp to bother with at all, just pedal board > amp-in-a-box > DI (1/4 to XLR proper conversion) > PA > done.

Another option is to turn the amp down, face it AWAY from the audience, surround it with acoustic proofing, and mic it. Or use long cable runs to it in a back room.

You have posted a lot of threads asking questions that have misdirected the conversation. The real question is, "How do I manage stage volume with my loud amp?" If you were asking for a preamp that can go direct to PA, we will recommend something. If you were asking for a speaker sim, we will recommend something. If you were asking for an attenuator, we will recommend something. But if you're asking how to manage stage volume, our responses will not be the same as if we were replying to those questions, and will likely be BETTER responses to the actual issue at hand.
Last edited by Will Lane at Jan 31, 2017,
#31
Two notes torpedo is about the only thing that is mass produced that will do everything that you want in one package
Jumping on dat gear sig train.
PRS Hollowbody II / BKP Warpigs
Strandberg OS6T / BKP Aftermath
Strandberg OS7 / Lace Poopsticks
Skervesen Raptor 7FF / BKP Warpigs
Skervesen Raptor 6 NTB / BKP Juggernauts
Hapas Sludge 7 FF / Hapas Leviathan
Anderson Baritom / Motorcity Nuke BKP Sinner Anderson H2+
Warmoth Baritone / BKP Piledriver
Ibanez Rg2120x / BKP Nailbomb

Blackstar ID:Core Beam
#32
Will Lane
The thing is that i dont know any of these stuff thats why i still ask missdirection questions, im a newbie playing the electric guitar thats why i dont know the components (i didnt know).

The real question now is, if I buy a amp combo (normal one) (i know now that I need an attenuator now tho) will the amp shut up once i connect the the attenuator in the direct out or preamp out of the amp? Or it will keep sounding no matter where do i connect it? (P.A.)

Effect Pedals--> Amp combo--> Attenuator--> D.I. box (which ever?)--> P.A.
Results: no sound from my amp combo speaker but rather P.A's Speakers.

Is this right? diabolical AcousticMirror Tony Done metalmingee Roc8995
#33
Yes that will work the two notes has a d I out. No need for a di box
Jumping on dat gear sig train.
PRS Hollowbody II / BKP Warpigs
Strandberg OS6T / BKP Aftermath
Strandberg OS7 / Lace Poopsticks
Skervesen Raptor 7FF / BKP Warpigs
Skervesen Raptor 6 NTB / BKP Juggernauts
Hapas Sludge 7 FF / Hapas Leviathan
Anderson Baritom / Motorcity Nuke BKP Sinner Anderson H2+
Warmoth Baritone / BKP Piledriver
Ibanez Rg2120x / BKP Nailbomb

Blackstar ID:Core Beam
#34
AcousticMirror will i basically hear how the speaker of my amps sounds thru that "cab sim"? Does it have those clean option that can truly transmit that sound that my amp's speaker produce?

Also how can you tell if is it passive or an active box, which one it is?
Last edited by Jeanpr002 at Jan 31, 2017,
#35
Jeanpr002 Some attenuators will allow you to send the signal back to the amps speaker, some will not, some will give you the option to or not. Ones that will allow you to send the signal back to the speaker (or ones that make you send the signal back) are ones with a "power amp out" or "speaker out" jack.
Last edited by Will Lane at Jan 31, 2017,
#36
Will Lane I see... can you do like a map like the one that i did to explain that that you just said (if you can make a sketch in a paper like a map and post a picture here will be awesome) about if it alows to send signal back to the amps speaker? Also will the amp speaker will still produce sound or it will shut up once connected to that attenuator? metalmingee diabolical
#37
The two notes isn't an attenautor. An attenuators will lower the volume. The two notes and what you want is a load box will act as a silent speaker load for your amp
Jumping on dat gear sig train.
PRS Hollowbody II / BKP Warpigs
Strandberg OS6T / BKP Aftermath
Strandberg OS7 / Lace Poopsticks
Skervesen Raptor 7FF / BKP Warpigs
Skervesen Raptor 6 NTB / BKP Juggernauts
Hapas Sludge 7 FF / Hapas Leviathan
Anderson Baritom / Motorcity Nuke BKP Sinner Anderson H2+
Warmoth Baritone / BKP Piledriver
Ibanez Rg2120x / BKP Nailbomb

Blackstar ID:Core Beam
#38
Jeanpr002 You don't need a map. You simply look at the attenuator/load box you are interested in and see if it has a power amp out or speaker out jack. Or even reading the product descriptions will help you out.
Quote by AcousticMirror
The two notes isn't an attenautor. An attenuators will lower the volume. The two notes and what you want is a load box will act as a silent speaker load for your amp
Apologies if I have been confusing things. I've just been referring to whatever TS needs as an attenuator. I didn't know if he wanted some of the signal back to the amp or not. If he wants the amp to be completely quiet, then load box. Technically a load box (with the DI out) is an attenuator anyway, knocking the level down from power amp levels.
Last edited by Will Lane at Jan 31, 2017,
#39
Can use this. It's new and portable

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/two-notes-torpedo-captor/

Only difference is the love has a digital simulation section so you can load different cab profiles.

The captor will need to go into another cab sim if you don't like the one that's built in

Actually I'm not sure if the captor can replace the speaker load. Might want to email them.
Jumping on dat gear sig train.
PRS Hollowbody II / BKP Warpigs
Strandberg OS6T / BKP Aftermath
Strandberg OS7 / Lace Poopsticks
Skervesen Raptor 7FF / BKP Warpigs
Skervesen Raptor 6 NTB / BKP Juggernauts
Hapas Sludge 7 FF / Hapas Leviathan
Anderson Baritom / Motorcity Nuke BKP Sinner Anderson H2+
Warmoth Baritone / BKP Piledriver
Ibanez Rg2120x / BKP Nailbomb

Blackstar ID:Core Beam
Last edited by AcousticMirror at Jan 31, 2017,
#40
AcousticMirror
So technically I would need a load box that will shut up my amp speaker but will still transfer the signal into the cab sim that i would have to buy aswell right?
(Wich ones can I buy, the best?)
Page 1 of 2