#1
Mesa Boogie was started by modifying Princeton Reverbs. Mesa sounds like a hi-gain Fender.

Bogner started by modifying Marshalls. Its amps have Marshall's treble.

However, are electronics on Mesa Boogies and Bogners more or less the same?
#2
The first Marks were indeed just a Fender with extra tubes, that's why their EQ's don't really EQ the overall sound. The tone stack is before the extra gain stages. That is still how later Marks work. It's also why simply boosting the input of a Fender does not a Mesa make.
I know nothing about Bogners, sorry.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#3
I don't know how you got from those first two lines to the last one. I'm not even sure what the question "electronics the same" is supposed to mean. There aren't any Fender parts in Mesa amps, or Marshall parts in Bogners, if that's what you mean. They make all their own stuff.

Yes, Marshall and Bogner started off by modifying existing designs, just like Marshall started off cribbing from Fender (and Mesa and Bogner made far larger changes than Marshall did in their first runs). As to the thread title, the answer is no. Both companies have grown to the point where they're very much doing their own thing. Fender doesn't have anything that even remotely resembles the Mark V, and there's no Marshall product you could possibly tweak to end up with an Ecstasy or an Uberschall. Both companies still make products that are a little closer to their original roots, so you can get a Mark I reissue or a Bogner Helios which are more Fendery/Marshally in sound, but that doesn't really mean anything. At some point you're asking if a Ferrari is "just" a modified Model T. They might share some common DNA but they're fundamentally different products.

Plus, the "just" in your title seems to have a strange derogatory connotation that's not fair or necessary. If you want to take it there, Dumbles and Trainwrecks are "just" modded Fenders and Marshalls as well, and those amps are some of the best-regarded and certainly command the highest prices out of any on the planet. There aren't a ton of different ways of making amps, so most designs share common origins. Fenders were adapted from the RCA tube manuals, so almost all tube amp designs are descendants of those circuits by necessity.

So - Marshall started by modifying a Fender Bassman. Marshall sounds like a Fender with EL34s. Are Marshalls just modified Fenders? Are electronics the same between Marshall and Fender?

Hopefully that sounds absurd to you, because to me saying something like "Mesa sounds like a high-gain Fender" and "Bogner has Marshall treble" aren't things I'd categorically agree with, having played most of them. Some of them, sure, you can see the resemblance if you squint, or in Bogner's case it's more obvious depending on the model. But it's not really valuable or true to make such generalizations.
#4
They are all just modified Western Electrics.

Every tube amp has common roots and many share similar ideas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Electric
"Your sound is in your hands as much as anything. It's the way you pick, and the way you hold the guitar, more than it is the amp or the guitar you use." -- Stevie Ray Vaughan

"Anybody can play. The note is only 20 percent. The attitude of the motherfucker who plays it is 80 percent." -- Miles Davis

Guthrie on tone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmohdG9lLqY
Last edited by Cajundaddy at Feb 26, 2017,
#5
True but Marks are still essentially a Fender circuit with extra gain stages after the tone stack. That hasn't really changed, they just added extra goodies on the later ones. But as you say, all amps are modifications of the early RCA circuits if you want to get pedantic about it.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#6
True, and the Bogner Helios is clearly a Plexi with some upgrades. I don't mean to say that these companies make only 100% original designs now.

It's just a strange choice of question, in a world where every guitar company makes either something that looks like a strat or something that looks like a Les Paul, or in some cases both. There's a lot of cross-pollination in the guitar business, it's not unusual or shocking that some companies started out making improvements on other designs before starting to branch out on their own. A quick peek at either company's website, or playing more than one or two of their products, would make it obvious that they're not just tweaking Princetons and Plexis any more.
#7
They all share the same foundation (since they all do the same thing: amplify the signal of the guitar) but what they do with it after that is what makes them different. If they were all the same, then the other companies would've gone out of business years ago. The differences are enough that people choose different amplifiers based primarily on their personal evaluation of how the amplifiers sound through certain speaker cabinets. As long as the thing works and works reliably, does it really make a difference what is inside of it if it gives you the sound(s) you want?
"Maybe this world is another planet's hell?" - Aldous Huxley
#9
Leo Fender was a radio technician turned entrepreneur. He moved towards musician equipment when he was fixing more PA equipment. Back then (1940's), tubes were in most everything. It was why I was able to take a console TV with a radio and turn table into a guitar amplifier when I was a kid. The Fender Bassman was meant for bass, but guitarists loved its tone. Marshall based the JTM-45 on it. Then they branched off.

The whole guitar gear company starting in mods is absolutely nothing new. When I was gigging almost 20 years ago, other guys were sending their pedals to Keeley for mods. Wampler did mods. You name it, most pedal companies come from ideas of modding or re-engineering something that existed. Then they start making things that fit a niche that isn't filled. Not everyone needs a Tube Screamer clone.

How many guitar companies make almost exact copies of Les Paul, Stratocaster, Telecaster, etc? But are they the same thing?
#10
Quote by Roc8995
True, and the Bogner Helios is clearly a Plexi with some upgrades. I don't mean to say that these companies make only 100% original designs now.


Mmmmm ..... Helios ..... DROOOOOOL .....
#11
Also, "stock cars" they race at NASCAR events are based on stock production models of cars, and those cars are all descended from early Benz and Ford designs, right?

I'm not sure what the original post meant about the electronics being "more or less the same". More or less the same like a car is a car, or more or less the same like a Maxxon OD 808 and an Ibanez TS 808?
Last edited by luke.g.henderso at Feb 27, 2017,
#12
Historically all the notable amp builders/designers started by tearing something apart and reengineering it, So why not start with a Fender or Marshal, Hell they were plentiful and cheap,
#13
Quote by luke.g.henderso

I'm not sure what the original post meant about the electronics being "more or less the same". More or less the same like a car is a car, or more or less the same like a Maxxon OD 808 and an Ibanez TS 808?


well a maxon od808 is actually a ts10, but aside from that agreed
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#14
Thanks for all of your input.

What are all of your credentials?
#16
Quote by NostraHistoria
Thanks for all of your input.

What are all of your credentials?


Dammit, you caught us...
I'm just a kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer.
#17
Quote by luke.g.henderso
Also, "stock cars" they race at NASCAR events are based on stock production models of cars


Not even close. Once upon a time, of course. But NASCAR is a spec race series now, with made-up identical race cars distinguished only by the vinyl wrap for each sponsor/race.
#18
Quote by NostraHistoria
Thanks for all of your input.

What are all of your credentials?


We don' need no steenkeeng credentials...

#19
Quote by Xander_X
Mmmmm ..... Helios ..... DROOOOOOL .....


Clearly a Kool-Aid overdose...
#20
Marshalls are Fenders, as far as signifcant guitar amps are concerned Fender is the genesis.
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#21
dspellman

I just really like that amp man. Ever since I heard it for the first time. Unfortunately, it's in my "unrealistic price-range"; that price bracket for gear that, sure I could save or sell things to get it, it just feels absurd to spend that much on it.
#23
Quote by dspellman
Not even close. Once upon a time, of course. But NASCAR is a spec race series now, with made-up identical race cars distinguished only by the vinyl wrap for each sponsor/race.


You might have missed the sarcasm in my original post (comparing modern high-gain amps to the modern race cars, and classic Fender amps being the original car models)
#24
Quote by Dave_Mc
well a maxon od808 is actually a ts10, but aside from that agreed


Well, my point was that they were different, but "more or less" the same, as opposed to comparing an 808 to a drive pedal not based on the TS design.
But, someone not into guitar gear might say that all overdrive pedals are "more or less" the same to them.
#25
Quote by NostraHistoria
Thanks for all of your input.

What are all of your credentials?


My degree? My driver's license? My network credentials? Could you be more specific please?
#26
NostraHistoria what are your credentials to be asking about my credentials?

BTW, Mesa also are a Marshall modifier, they had the Stiletto and now the TC-50 is pretty much a Marshall voiced Mesa.
The Mark might be a ripped-off Fender, but so far I haven't gotten any chills playing the original.
#27
Quote by Bigbazz
Marshalls are Fenders, as far as signifcant guitar amps are concerned Fender is the genesis.

But Fender didn't really invent anything, they just rearranged some RCA circuits. So really, RCA is the genesis.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#28
Quote by luke.g.henderso
Well, my point was that they were different, but "more or less" the same, as opposed to comparing an 808 to a drive pedal not based on the TS design.
But, someone not into guitar gear might say that all overdrive pedals are "more or less" the same to them.


Oh yeah absolutely, I agree with you. There's not that much difference, absolutely. I was just trying to head off the possible continuation of the myth that the od808 is a ts808.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#29
Quote by luke.g.henderso
You might have missed the sarcasm in my original post (comparing modern high-gain amps to the modern race cars, and classic Fender amps being the original car models)


I did. And my snarkasm meter apparently needs recalibrating.