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#1
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/highschools/meet-the-texas-wrestler-who-won-a-girls-state-title-his-name-is-mack/2017/02/25/982bd61c-fb6f-11e6-be05-1a3817ac21a5_story.html?utm_term=.907f74ec5a35

Well, he was assigned female at birth, but identified as male. Still, he competed in the female 110lbs category, but as part of the transition he was allowed to take hormone injections; specifically testosterone. This would have been banned to anyone not undergoing a transition due to the obvious performance enhancement it yields.

Discuss.
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#3
but I don't want to
WHAT A
HORRIBLE
NIGHT TO
HAVE A
CURSE.
#4
TEXAS PRIDE


Those asses got WHOOPED son.
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Last edited by Joshua Garcia at Feb 27, 2017,
#5
I don't like it. Testosterone has a huge impact on muscle growth in children and it gives a huge edge to the trans-girl (who wants to be a boy). It's like legalizing steroids, but only for certain people. For the record the kid did want to compete against boys and lobbied to, but was shot down and forced to compete against girls. They should have allowed this person to compete against the boys.

This was only unfair to the girls "she" competed against, but it was most definitely unfair to them. All trans people should be allowed to compete in MALE sports, only. And yes, they should be allowed to compete.
#6
That's what transphobia nets ya

The University Interscholastic League, which oversees sports in Texas public schools, ordered Beggs to continue competing in the girls’ division despite heavy uproar and a lawsuit earlier this month in a Travis County district court.


So I guess keep putting trans men in women's leagues and they'll get their butts handed to them

EDIT: They essentially ruined a season of sports in order to take a hateful political stance and now everyone's gonna be like "Look at trans people cheating! They can't be trusted!"
Last edited by ali.guitarkid7 at Feb 27, 2017,
#7
Got me thinking would it be ok if all the other girls were nazis
WHAT A
HORRIBLE
NIGHT TO
HAVE A
CURSE.
#8
I have to admit this hits a little closer to home than usual, since I was a HS wrestling champ, lol.

Back in my day, unfortunately, girls weren't allowed to wrestle.
#9
Quote by ElMaco
Got me thinking would it be ok if all the other girls were nazis


Nazis named Elsa, to be specific.
#10
Quote by TobusRex
Nazis named Elsa, to be specific.

Who are all searching for the Holy Grail, to be even more specific.
WHAT A
HORRIBLE
NIGHT TO
HAVE A
CURSE.
#11
Quote by ali.guitarkid7
That's what transphobia nets ya


So I guess keep putting trans men in women's leagues and they'll get their butts handed to them

EDIT: They essentially ruined a season of sports in order to take a hateful political stance and now everyone's gonna be like "Look at trans people cheating! They can't be trusted!"

Yeah, this whole situation was a shit sandwich. From my standpoint, the blame lies with the University Interscholastic League. If they identify as male, and are taking testosterone to transition to male, let them wrestle in the male league. By forcing him to wrestle in the girl's league, they basically made him eat that shit sandwich. Despite the win, there will always be that asterisk next to his name in the record books.
#12
This seems unfair to the other competitors, although I really don't care much about sports being fair or not (or about sports in general tbh).
That being said, the people saying he's cheating are morons. Blame the organisers for being unwilling to actually think about something. Just because you're uncomfortable making a judgement call on something doesn't mean the issue is solved or is a non-issue. Assuming the status quo is sufficient (in any regard, not just for trans stuff) is intellectually and ethically lazy and incredibly ignorant.

Aside from that, I think this is pretty funny.

"You can't be a boy. You're a girl!"
- "Ok then"
"...fuck"

Good on him
#13
Wrestling is stupid and everyone who participates in it should be banned. From everything.
I have nothing important to say
#14
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#15
I think the trans aspect of this tends to muddy up the actual problem here. A wrestler was taking a performance enhancing substance that, according to the OP, is not allowed. The question of whether he's a man or not doesn't matter. If hormone injections aren't allowed then you shouldn't be able to participate if you take them. And if you do participate anyway, your achievements while breaking the rules should be erased from the record books. On the flip side, if testosterone injections aren't explicitly banned then the win counts.
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#16
He / She used a drug that significantly improved his / her performance, therefore he / she didn't deserve to win, its simple
#17
Quote by smithy15493
He / She used a drug that significantly improved his / her performance, therefore he / she didn't deserve to win, its simple

Except for the fact that he was allowed to participate while taking said substances.
#18
Quote by ultimate-slash
Except for the fact that he was allowed to participate while taking said substances.


And while that may have been a mistake on the part of whatever organization is hosting this, it doesn't change the rules. If someone challenges the validity of the accomplishment based on the rules then either the rules need to be changed to allow hormone injections for anyone or the accomplishment needs to be erased.

You saw this years ago in the NBA when Kobe would pass off the backboard to himself whenever he was double teamed. Once teams started complaining about it the rules were changed to allow it.
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#19
Quote by Victory2134
And while that may have been a mistake on the part of whatever organization is hosting this, it doesn't change the rules. If someone challenges the validity of the accomplishment based on the rules then either the rules need to be changed to allow hormone injections for anyone or the accomplishment needs to be erased.

You saw this years ago in the NBA when Kobe would pass off the backboard to himself whenever he was double teamed. Once teams started complaining about it the rules were changed to allow it.

Certainly the people who make the rules change the rules tho?

I'd agree that performance-enhancing substances shouldn't normally be allowed, but the issue here is that the guy was forced to play as a woman. The drugs which would normally be performance-enhancing, are simply used to elevate the hormone balance to natural male levels.

In any case, this is mostly to do with the organisers being wishy-washy about acknowledging the guy as a guy or not, and it paid off in the form of him sticking it to them. The drugs are a secondary issue here imo, and could have been a non-issue.
#20
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#21
It's easy to say the admins fucked up when it's F2M. Would you guys still be cool with it if it was a dude that just beat the shit out of all the girls a la fallon fox?
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#22
Well he should be competing against guys, first off.

But why is he even allowed to compete if he's on PEDs?
___

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#23
Quote by StewieSwan
It's easy to say the admins fucked up when it's F2M. Would you guys still be cool with it if it was a dude that just beat the shit out of all the girls a la fallon fox?

Post sex change? Sure

(in which case the "dude" would be a girl/woman of course, but let's not go there)

EDIT: To add to that, I do think if you're having competitions to compare physical skill/ability you want to level the playing field a bit to keep things interesting. If someone's hormone balance is such that it dramatically influences the abilities to excel in certain competitions, it might be worth considering to enter them in a different class. Seems like something that could be treated as being similar to weight class and all that.
#24
Quote by ultimate-slash
Post sex change? Sure


That's pretty transphobic, pal.

EDIT: To add to that, I do think if you're having competitions to compare physical skill/ability you want to level the playing field a bit to keep things interesting. If someone's hormone balance is such that it dramatically influences the abilities to excel in certain competitions, it might be worth considering to enter them in a different class. Seems like something that could be treated as being similar to weight class and all that.


The whole idea of physical competition is silly to me because we're all at inherent advantages and disadvantages. Controlling for weight class attempts to level it out, but there are still tons of factors that you can't control for. There are tons of sports, though, where the disadvantages aren't controlled for at all, like running.

So the options are:

get rid of sports (LOL)
integrate men and women and control for everything (yawn)
leave as is and trans folks continue to have unfair advantages and disadvantages

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#25
Quote by StewieSwan
That's pretty transphobic, pal.

I disagree. This is exactly what I'm explaining in the edit for my post. We're not talking about (psychological) gender here. Sport is inherently a physical thing, and the parameters per sport are defined as physical qualities. I'd assume even a pre-op transgender would say they're trapped in the (physical) body of the opposite sex.
The whole idea of physical competition is silly to me because we're all at inherent advantages and disadvantages. Controlling for weight class attempts to level it out, but there are still tons of factors that you can't control for. There are tons of sports, though, where the disadvantages aren't controlled for at all, like running.

So the options are:

get rid of sports (LOL)
integrate men and women and control for everything (yawn)
leave as is and trans folks continue to have unfair advantages and disadvantages


I agree with you that it's silly to use sports as a demonstration of definitive superiority or something, as if it's somehow a scientific process that serves any additional purpose. It should, in my opinion just be seen as competition for the purposes of entertainment and (for those who want to view it as such) as motivation for improved individual performance.
As for the example of running: Perhaps it's worth looking into what characteristics are relevant if people want to paint a good picture of how to classify physical superiority. "Cock or not" seems like a weirdly arbitrary and simplified parameter that still allows for many other factors to be entirely out of proportion.

With regards to future options for sport I'm probably not the best person to propose anything, as I don't care much at all for sports (except for entertainment/exercise), but I doubt it's impossible to come up with some ways to make everything seem a bit more fair to everyone, trans or not.
#26
Essentially, my view on trans people in sports is: If it quacks like a duck for all or most practical purposes, it's probably fit to be in a quacking competition for ducks.
#27
This seems like a shitty half-solution to the issue of his competing while transitioning, that worked out stupidly.

Way to go, school and sports league nobody wins
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#29
Quote by Rossenrot
Quite the mess you progressives have got yourselves into.


Sure.

Ignoring the fact that

He wanted to wrestle with boys, but the school board (conservatives) didn't want to let him.

But hey-ho, blame progressives
#30
Quote by ultimate-slash
Certainly the people who make the rules change the rules tho?

I'd agree that performance-enhancing substances shouldn't normally be allowed, but the issue here is that the guy was forced to play as a woman. The drugs which would normally be performance-enhancing, are simply used to elevate the hormone balance to natural male levels.

In any case, this is mostly to do with the organisers being wishy-washy about acknowledging the guy as a guy or not, and it paid off in the form of him sticking it to them. The drugs are a secondary issue here imo, and could have been a non-issue.


I don't think this has anything to do with the organizers acknowledging the gender or not. Clearly he was acknowledged as female and so should have been treated as any other female in the competition. If the organizers were aware of the fact that he was on performance enhancing substances that are banned by the established rules then you either change the rules to allow it or take away the accomplishment.

The problem doesn't really have anything to do with what gender was recognized. Both parties clearly agreed to treating the participant as a female. The issue here is whether or not it's okay to use a certain PED or not. From what I read there's no indication that the issue of enhancement being used was even brought up to the UIL. It was simply a case of the organization saying that you have to compete based on what the birth certificate says.
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We all have the rights to be mad

So does you
#31
Quote by Tanglewoodguit
Sure.

Ignoring the fact that

He wanted to wrestle with boys, but the school board (conservatives) didn't want to let him.

But hey-ho, blame progressives


Don't put this mess you've got yourselves into on me. This trans dude getting his ass kicked by people with Y-chromosomes wouldn't be any less of a controversy.
#32
Quote by Rossenrot
Don't put this mess you've got yourselves into on me. This trans dude getting his ass kicked by people with Y-chromosomes wouldn't be any less of a controversy.


You're right.

Damn progressives for letting people determine who they want to be rather than being somebody they're not. Fuck them right?
#33
Also

Blaming 'progressives' for wanting a world where people can identify however they want instead of the medieval wrestling federation who caused this entire issue.
#35
Quote by Tanglewoodguit
You're right.

Damn progressives for letting people determine who they want to be rather than being somebody they're not. Fuck them right?


I think you're ignoring the fact that by agreeing to participate as a woman, Beggs voluntarily forfeited the right to identify as a male in the competition.
Quote by Hal-Sephira

We all have the rights to be mad

So does you
#37
Quote by Victory2134
I think you're ignoring the fact that by agreeing to participate as a woman, Beggs voluntarily forfeited the right to identify as a male in the competition.


What else was he supposed to do if the board weren't letting him wrestle as a man? Not participate?
#38
Quote by Tanglewoodguit
What else was he supposed to do if the board weren't letting him wrestle as a man? Not participate?


Absolutely, then sue the organization for sex-based discrimination. By agreeing to participate as a woman, Beggs agreed to adhere to all the rules that apply to women. And if it's explicitly stated that male hormone injections aren't allowed for women (as I stated in my first post) then he needed to abide by that.

You can't say 'okay I'll agree to the rules' and then not actually abide by them. That's wrong no matter what race, gender, or whatever you identify as. Which is why I don't see this as a gender issue at all. It's a standard substance abuse issue.
Quote by Hal-Sephira

We all have the rights to be mad

So does you
#39
Quote by ultimate-slash
I disagree. This is exactly what I'm explaining in the edit for my post. We're not talking about (psychological) gender here. Sport is inherently a physical thing, and the parameters per sport are defined as physical qualities. I'd assume even a pre-op transgender would say they're trapped in the (physical) body of the opposite sex.


In a world where identifying is enough and you get all the "SHE DOESN'T IDENTIFY AS A WOMAN. SHE IS A WOMAN" crowd your pre-op/post-op qualification is irrelevant.

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#40
Quote by Tanglewoodguit
What else was he supposed to do if the board weren't letting him wrestle as a man? Not participate?

This. He wanted to participate and played by the rules set forth. The board was aware of the transition and the hormone therapy he was receiving as part of his transition and ruled that he had to participate in the girl's division. He swept the division using the rules the board set forth. I fail to see how this is anyone's fault other than the board. They made a dumb decision and now they have to eat crow because of it.
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