Page 1 of 2
#1
How much difference do you think the tone will be between the two? I personally like the G Force as a new player. Both have 57's. Playing through a DSL40c. Can anyone tell me the real differences?
#3
I recommend against the G Force, even if you're a new player. There are a lot of threads crabbing about those elsewhere, so I won't go over that. I see a number of them offered for sale for cheap on the local Craigslist.

There's no telling what the differences will be tonally -- Gibson, of late, has had different tonalities on the identical guitar with identical pickups; I'm not sure what their quality control people are smoking. In short, there's no quantifiable identification of tonal differences between the two. Try them in person.

I've been an LP person pretty much forever and have never really bonded with an SG. While I like the *look* of an SG, I've found them usually to be neck-heavy. They also pull your left hand off to the left more than other guitars (LP, strat, tele) do, I *do* like the fact that the body is nearly as thin as the neck -- it makes for a more comfortable upper fret region (no clunky neck heel). But I think the recurved horns take that away if you have medium to large hands. There's another guitar out there -- the Gibson L6-S -- that has a body that thin and a 24-fret neck, and it's FAR more comfortable to play in the upper fret region because it's got a very wide treble cutaway.

The bad news with the HP series LPs is the width of the neck (I don't think you're getting wider string spacing to go with it) and the G-Farce. The good news is the smooth neck heel. I've got several LPs with non-standard neck heels, and they're a blessing. It's sad that the LP HP doesn't also have a 24-fret fretboard; I have a few that do, and even if you don't use all 24, it makes 22 frets a lot easier to get to. Changes the whole character of the guitar. I've also grown accustomed to 14 and 16" radius fretboards and jumbo frets. Gibson is claiming the guitar is PLEK'd for level frets, but I'm betting there are quite a few out there with less than level fretwork. It's not the PLEK machine's fault -- it's more about how, when and why they use a PLEK machine (which is much different from when you have a PLEK job done by a competent tech).

My advice is to try both first.
#4
The G-Force system looks novel to newcomers, but the execution of the system in reality is a disaster. They're not as accurate as a tuner pedal, they're unreliable, not that fast, the alternate tunings you can accomplish with them is too heavily dependent on what string gauge you use (you cannot expect a guitar to downtune from E standard to C and have the guitar be playable) and they're extremely prone to the gears inside stripping out, rendering them useless.

You only have to do a google search on 'Gibson Minetune problems' or 'Gibson G-Force problems' to see that these auto tuners are wrought with design problems. You'll see many, many sets of Minetune and G-Force tuners being sold on ebay for a reason: People are taking them off their guitars, installing proper sets of tuners and dumping their system on ebay. Because they suck.

My question is; Does it have to be a Gibson?
Quote by Axelfox
Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Quote by H4T3BR33D3R
I also have to do that. Cottaging this weekend
#5
Quote by Giants72
How much difference do you think the tone will be between the two? I personally like the G Force as a new player. Both have 57's. Playing through a DSL40c. Can anyone tell me the real differences?


There's a minor tonal difference, but nothing you can't dial in with your EQ. Personally, I went for the LP.

** PREPARE THE TORCHES AND GRAB YOUR PITCHFORKS!!

I have the GForce system on both of my LP's, and I like it. I apologize to everyone who hates it, but frankly Scarlett, I don't give a damn. As soon as you buy my guitars from me, you can do what you want. I don't tell you what to play or how to set it up.

There have been software improvements in the G-Force system, and I've honestly had no troubles. I keep my batteries charged once a week and I play my guitars no less than 2 hours per day. I follow the instructions for replacing strings (I actually did a video for it) because using a winder will strip the G-Force tuners. I've found it no less or more accurate than a headstock tuner, and these days, that's what is being used by a lot of folks, pro and otherwise.

Edited to add: I did a video for precision as well, comparing the tuning before and after with a floor tuner.

Sorry I gave you such bad advice. Rock on!
Last edited by GoldJim at Feb 28, 2017,
#6
Quote by GoldJim
There's a minor tonal difference, but nothing you can't dial in with your EQ. Personally, I went for the LP.

** PREPARE THE TORCHES AND GRAB YOUR PITCHFORKS!!

I have the GForce system on both of my LP's, and I like it. I apologize to everyone who hates it, but frankly Scarlett, I don't give a damn. As soon as you buy my guitars from me, you can do what you want. I don't tell you what to play or how to set it up.

There have been software improvements in the G-Force system, and I've honestly had no troubles. I keep my batteries charged once a week and I play my guitars no less than 2 hours per day. I follow the instructions for replacing strings (I actually did a video for it) because using a winder will strip the G-Force tuners. I've found it no less or more accurate than a headstock tuner, and these days, that's what is being used by a lot of folks, pro and otherwise.

Edited to add: I did a video for precision as well, comparing the tuning before and after with a floor tuner.

Sorry I gave you such bad advice. Rock on!
But that doesn't address the real issues, which are about build quality and durability. I can guarantee that the stock Grovers on my 2002 Epi LP are still as good as they were new; In 15 year's time, I really doubt you'll be able to say the same for your G-Force boondoggles.
#7
Quote by slapsymcdougal
But that doesn't address the real issues, which are about build quality and durability. I can guarantee that the stock Grovers on my 2002 Epi LP are still as good as they were new; In 15 year's time, I really doubt you'll be able to say the same for your G-Force boondoggles.


Gimme a shout in 2032. We'll give it a test. I promise you the first "I told you so." You can take that and $3 to get a coffee the next morning.
#8
Quote by GoldJim
Gimme a shout in 2032. We'll give it a test. I promise you the first "I told you so." You can take that and $3 to get a coffee the next morning.
Like coffee won't have gotten more expensive.
#9
There are a number of issues with the G Force.

Gibson has tried to field a successful self-tuning gizmo for over 20 years. They started in the early '90's with something called the TransPerformance Bridge (probably still available somewhere) that had the motors that adjusted string tension in the bridge rather than in the tuners. The TP bridge required routing about half the Les Paul body, and was around $3500 on top of the cost of the Les Paul itself. I have photos around here somewhere. Jimmy Page touted it and even used it onstage for a song where he played a chord and then changed the tuning of the guitar. Needless to say the guitar wasn't very popular and is now quite rare and no one cares that it is.

Powertune showed up in 2004 or 2005 with what eventually became the Robot tuners. Gibson jumped on the company and asked for an exclusive; they needed (they thought) something that looked like innovation. The motors were in the tuners, but the system was complicated, funky, and broke easily. When it did, Gibson insisted that you return the guitar for repair, and repairs took months and they frequently didn't have parts. Powertune changed names over the ensuing 10 years to Tronical, and the Min E Tune and then the G Farce showed up on Gibson guitars (it's the TronicalTune everywhere else in the Universe) in a much more compact setup. Gibson no longer has an exclusive on the gizmo and you can buy it in versions for a lot of other guitars, including Fenders and other inline tuner guitars.

The thing is, that aside from tuning your guitar to E standard, the concept is flawed. And in most iterations the execution is flawed. It claims to perform alternate tunings, and it does so within a very limited range. The problem, from the earliest bridge-centric unit, is that it changes tension on the strings, so you end up with either strings that are too tight, becoming cheese cutters, or too loose and floppy, producing crappy tone. Within the same tuning you have strings that you can't bend and strings that will bend halfway across the neck. It gets worse. The original manual on these things cautions that there are certain tunings that require certain string gauges. Too light and the strings will snap, too heavy and the tuners will break. If you're just going to use the thing to tune to E standard with original equipment strings, you should be good. In theory.

The second issue is execution. In a noisy environment, these things don't tune very accurately. Most gigging musicians have noted that strings can be notably out of tune if other players are tweaking their instruments at the same time you're trying to tune. And they wear. I haven't personally seen this part of it, but over time they apparently lose accuracy due to mechanical wear. They're easily broken, if you accidentally reach up to tune it manually. And at that point your guitar is out of commission until you get parts or a new unit. There's no fallback position. Well there is, but it involves removing the unit and replacing it with standard tuners. "High Performance" it's not. On the other hand, I've always thought it would be fun to put them on a guitar with a Floyd Rose and let them grind away tuning that thing after a string change and before locking the nut down. In any case, Gibson tried, one recent year, to force these on anyone buying a guitar. That concept didn't last out the year. So now they complain that every time they try something innovative, their customers shoot it down. In recent memory, they've tried the Dark Star (whatever that was), the Dusk Tiger and the Firebird X, all of which were soundly rejected. It's worth noting that the Neal Schon Sig guitar, which featured rearranged controls, a smooth neck heel, a Fernandes Sustainer, a sweepable passive mids cut on a push-pull and a single coil size DiMarzio humbucker in the neck position, sold out a 35-guitar "pilot run" at a $10K MSRP (probably $6500 street) within minutes. Gibson so pissed off Neal by stealing the smooth neck heel for their Axcess that he bolted (again) to PRS, and now Gibson publicly refuses to build a Neal Schon sig via its custom shop, at any price. It's rumored that at least 90 of them were actually built, including the initial run, in a few months after the shutdown, but only Gary Brawer and Gibson know for sure.
Meanwhile, it's nearly impossible to talk any owner out of one of those guitars.

You'll find a few people who swear that the G Farce is golden; an excellent piece of gear. But at least you now know why there are those who do not.
#10
All great insight so far, thank you! But what about the choice between the two guitars?
#11
Quote by GoldJim
There have been software improvements in the G-Force system, and I've honestly had no troubles. I keep my batteries charged once a week and I play my guitars no less than 2 hours per day. I follow the instructions for replacing strings (I actually did a video for it) because using a winder will strip the G-Force tuners. I've found it no less or more accurate than a headstock tuner, and these days, that's what is being used by a lot of folks, pro and otherwise.
Edited to add: I did a video for precision as well, comparing the tuning before and after with a floor tuner.
Sorry I gave you such bad advice. Rock on!

I find it very bizarre that you're somehow okay with that.

See, this is partly why I have my doubts over these auto tuning systems lasting any significant period of time. Even if they could theoretically last 15 years if you took perfect care of them, in reality you if you happen to be a bit tipsy during a gig, you might absentmindedly try and adjust the tuners by hand and end up totally wrecking them. It's far too easy for that to happen over a long period for such tuners to last.

Quote by Giants72 All great insight so far, thank you! But what about the choice between the two guitars?

 Does it have to be a Gibson?
Quote by Axelfox
Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Quote by H4T3BR33D3R
I also have to do that. Cottaging this weekend
#12
T00DEEPBLUE Again, I am a novice. I still have a hard time tuning by ear so the Gforce is ok with me for now. Plus I do have the ability to remove it and change the tuners I know. My favorite music is g&r, motley crue, that era and I also like blues. Really I am tinkering with a lot of stuff, but 90's is probably my favorite.
#13
Quote by Giants72
All great insight so far, thank you! But what about the choice between the two guitars?
Personally, I'd play them both and see if wither of them tickled my fancy.

I mean, other brands offer a lot of quality at that price point; so I'd shop around.

Although if I had to choose based just off specs, I'd probably take the SG
Quote by Giants72
T00DEEPBLUE Again, I am a novice. I still have a hard time tuning by ear so the Gforce is ok with me for now. Plus I do have the ability to remove it and change the tuners I know. My favorite music is g&r, motley crue, that era and I also like blues. Really I am tinkering with a lot of stuff, but 90's is probably my favorite.
Buy a pedal tuner. There are a ton of good quality ones out there, they're cheap, and they'll work with any guitar.
Last edited by slapsymcdougal at Feb 28, 2017,
#14
Quote by Giants72
T00DEEPBLUE Again, I am a novice. I still have a hard time tuning by ear so the Gforce is ok with me for now. Plus I do have the ability to remove it and change the tuners I know. My favorite music is g&r, motley crue, that era and I also like blues. Really I am tinkering with a lot of stuff, but 90's is probably my favorite.

The G-force system does not teach you to tune your guitar by ear any better than any regular guitar tuner does. In fact, it teaches you less because you don't even need to move the tuners yourself. Buy a pedal tuner. You're also not limited with only being able to tune 1 guitar like you are with a G-force system. And many pedal tuners are significantly more accurate and reliable than headstock tuners in general.

Learning how to tune without relying on a system that mechanically tunes the guitar for you is something you need to learn how to do yourself whatever your skill level is. It is an indispensable part of knowing how to use a guitar properly.

Replacing the G-force system with proper tuners will still require you to drill new holes in the headstock. Why not just buy a guitar that has proper tuners right out of the box, mitigating the need to do anything to the guitar at all?
Quote by Axelfox
Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Quote by H4T3BR33D3R
I also have to do that. Cottaging this weekend
#15
So in that ball park for the type of music that I like, what other guitars would you recommend?
#16
Quote by Giants72
So in that ball park for the type of music that I like, what other guitars would you recommend?

It isn't a question of what we like, but what you like.

You'll need to answer these questions.

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1719492
Quote by Axelfox
Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Quote by H4T3BR33D3R
I also have to do that. Cottaging this weekend
#17
as far as differences between a LP and SG with identical pickups, wood, etc. from my research (just watching youtube videos of SG vs LP, not exactly scientific I know) SGs seem to put out a bit more bass.

That's basically going off other people's opinions though
[img]http://cdn.gs.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/v.gif[/img]
#18
Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
I find it very bizarre that you're somehow okay with that.

See, this is partly why I have my doubts over these auto tuning systems lasting any significant period of time. Even if they could theoretically last 15 years if you took perfect care of them, in reality you if you happen to be a bit tipsy during a gig, you might absentmindedly try and adjust the tuners by hand and end up totally wrecking them. It's far too easy for that to happen over a long period for such tuners to last.


1. I don't drink during gigs. Doesn't make one play better and doesn't do my voice any favors. At 52, I can still sing Your Love and Don't Stop Believing among others full voice in the original keys. Doesn't happen when you mix alcohol.

2. I've been playing since 1972 and gigging since 1976. I've had good, crap, excellent, and OK tuners. I'm not new to this. I have the original tuners. I removed them and added the G-Force system (requires no screws or drilling to install) of my own accord. If I want to go back, it's 15 - 30 minutes of my time during a string change, and that's including finding my tool bag. This is not my first rodeo.

3. I believe in playing the gear you want for your tone and your style and comfort. This person asked for informed opinions. I own 2 guitars with the tuning system and I am giving him the opinion that I have based on owning and using them daily.

I honestly respect what you have to say, I don't debunk it. I don't judge your choices. If you're right, you'll see the Gibson classic and Grover tuners back on the guitars. Until then, I'll use what I like. I also see none of the problems that dspellman points out. Maybe I'm lucky. I can tell you that I've simply rocked back on my vol pedal and strummed the strings to tune and gone back with noise, in a quiet environment, you name it. Yes, I've tuned mine manually. I've detuned them and let the machine retune for demo purposes. Maybe I'm lucky. Maybe I'm less of an ape with my tuners. Who knows. I do know that I've been using one for 2.5 years and another since the 2017 came into my home (nearly 6 months) without issue. I have a floor tuner, and I still check my tuning with it. No problems.

Edited to add: I'd like to know how a loud environment or quiet environment effects the tuning system differently than a floor tuner or other head stock tuners. That would be an interesting discussion.

Sorry to let you guys down.
Last edited by GoldJim at Feb 28, 2017,
#19
Quote by slapsymcdougal
Like coffee won't have gotten more expensive.


I didn't say it would be good coffee. No Starbucks. By then, I'll be getting the seniors coffee for free at McDonald's. I'll give you mine.
#20
GoldJim

I respect that you have your preferences and reasons to use the system, but objectively speaking the G-Force tuners are just not well designed and they half-ass on what they promise to achieve.

If you need to refer to an instruction manual or an online tutorial just to know how to detune a set of strings without totally destroying the gears, you've not made a well-designed product.

Tuner pedals made headstock tuners totally obsolete. They're a lot more accurate than headstock tuners, especially in noisy environments that tend to confuse tuners that rely on the body of the guitar vibrating to know how in or out of tune the guitar is. And the most obvious advantage is that you can use a pedal tuner on as many guitars as you like. You're not limiting to using the tuner on just 1 guitar like you are with a G-Force tuner.

The system claims that it can tune your guitar to any tuning, but in reality its functionality in that regard is very limited. Adjusting the tuning of the guitar by any significant amount affects how much relief the neck has, which has a major effect on the guitar's playability. If you like playing the guitar with a fairly straight neck but then begin downtuning, you might find that the neck begins to exhibit backbow, which causes the lower frets of the guitar to buzz heavily or just be totally dead altogether. There is no system in G-force to mitigate this.

Altering tunings can make the strings either super floppy and sound like shit and cannot stay in tune, to being incredibly tight to the point of being very uncomfortable to bend with, to even inadvertently breaking strings. Again, there is no system in G-Force to mitigate this. 

Apologies if these observations are not flattering towards you gear choices, but they are what they are.

If I wanted a guitar that stayed in tune, I'd buy a guitar that actually stayed in tune rather than rely on robo tuners to have to keep checking for me. And if I want to play in different tunings, I'll use different guitars that have been properly set up for that particular tuning. 
Quote by Axelfox
Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Quote by H4T3BR33D3R
I also have to do that. Cottaging this weekend
#21
Quote by Giants72
All great insight so far, thank you! But what about the choice between the two guitars?


See post #3.
#22
Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
GoldJim
...Apologies if these observations are not flattering towards you gear choices, but they are what they are.
 


No need for apologies. I wasn't looking for flattery. My main guitar is purple placid for goodness sake. Regarding tuning, let's face it, unless you're going about 1 step in either direction for a single song, a set up is required. The pros don't lug 15 guitars in 12 tunings for no reason. Still, most people my age have done drop D or DADGAD for a song or two without dedicating a single axe to it. I think what they are saying is that if you do change your default tuning, the system can follow you to it. At least that's what I got from each Gibson rep and video from them I've seen. I use 3 tunings: standard, drop D, and 1/2 step down. I would think anyone with super slack tuning is going to do a set up, that's with or without a tuning system, so that point is moot.

You're right about the instructions, and I can't speak to every problem, but if not followed, you can mess up your default tuning, have your strings never stay in tune, and strip the power tuners.

Lastly, I gave my view of what I use, not what I recommend. As a matter of fact, I said, "Sorry I gave you such bad advice. Rock on!"

To the OP, Giants72, you should play them both and take home the one you want for the reasons that you decide. Take it home, try it out, see what you think, let the honeymoon phase go away. Guitar Center (if available) lets you take home an instrument for 45 days, 60 if you get the protection plan. That should be time enough to fall in or out of love with the instrument in your playing environment.
Last edited by GoldJim at Feb 28, 2017,
#23
Quote by GoldJim
I use 3 tunings: standard, drop D, and 1/2 step down. I would think anyone with super slack tuning is going to do a set up, that's with or without a tuning system, so that point is moot.

I tend to set up my guitars with very low action and very specific degrees of neck relief because the quality of the fretwork on my go-to guitars allows me to set them up that way. By using multiple tunings on the same guitar, I would need to set up of the guitar so that it plays OK in all the tunings I would be using it for. But by doing that, I am compromising the playability of the guitar in any one tuning to make it playable in all the others. And the more different in string tension one tuning is from another one, the more the setup has to be compromised.

If the tuning system is designed in such a way that you cannot deviate from the original tuning the guitar was in too much, or you'll render it near unplayable, that really makes a large degree of the system's level of functionality pretty moot. I like to play in a variety of tunings, some of which deviate quite a lot from E standard, such as C#. A system such as G-force, while promising that it makes it easy to down the guitar down to that tuning, does not mean that it'll do that tuning well.

Alternate systems such as Variax do this auto tuning business without any of those problems, by digitally altering the pitch of the signal that comes out of the guitar before it goes to the amp. That suggests there would be a ton of latency issues and that it would make the guitar sound very synthesized, but if you actually played the guitars yourself, you would never know it was digitally altered if you just heard what was coming out of the amp. I think such a system is fundamentally a much more elegant solution to the problem as it takes the issues inherent in altering the tuning of a guitar mechanically totally out of the equation. The system obviously doesn't work on acoustic guitars, but the solution of altering the guitar's tuning mechanically is inherently flawed no matter how much the technology improves and no matter what guitar you use such a system on. To remove those flaws would require redesigning the instrument to the point that it wouldn't be a guitar anymore.
Quote by Axelfox
Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Quote by H4T3BR33D3R
I also have to do that. Cottaging this weekend
#24
Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
If the tuning system is designed in such a way that you cannot deviate from the original tuning the guitar was in too much, or you'll render it near unplayable, that really makes a large degree of the system's level of functionality pretty moot. I like to play in a variety of tunings, some of which deviate quite a lot from E standard, such as C#. A system such as G-force, while promising that it makes it easy to down the guitar down to that tuning, does not mean that it'll do that tuning well.


So what you're saying is that your tuning pegs are incapable of allowing your strings to go into another tuning? Or are you saying that no one has ever purchased a guitar, altered the tuning from standard to say C# and changed the setting, thereby needing to alter their standard tuning to C#? What the G-Force allows the user to do is to employ his or her own default tuning. If someone buys a guitar and it's in standard, can they not tune their guitar to whatever tuning they want by simply turning the tuning pegs? And if this tuning slacks the strings too much, can they decide to change their string and set up to accommodate the new tuning? Once they do this, do you think that they want their tuning pegs to go to standard tuning each time or should they adjust their tuning pegs so that they are now defaulted to the new tuning? Is that not altering the mechanics of the guitar? What about if you don't like the nut? The bridge? The pickups. PIckup height? Are those mechanical? What they said they've done is made it easy for the player to alter their tuning, yes, to the tuning they desire. Some tunings might require a whole new set up, while others may not.

Your 'argument' is that the tuning system allows the player to change their playing!?!? A tuning peg does not? I know, you have never altered your tuning because your guitar is set up perfectly and you have never had to play in drop D, Eb, or D standard. Good for you, but there are those of us who have and do and guess what, it works.

While you're at it, tell Jimmy Page that DADGAD is wrong; John Fogerty that he's supposed to tune to E standard, not D standard; and that damned Angus Young that he's supposed to be in standard, not about 1/4 tone flat. Their guitars were built for E standard, and that's what it's supposed to be. They're altering the mechanics, and that's just not right.

Oh, and Sir Paul was wrong when he tuned that acoustic down a full step and recorded this song:



Yes, some people might have to alter their set up for some tunings, but not every tuning requires it for everyone. Doesn't matter what you use as a machine that tunes the pegs: your hand, your feet, your teeth.
#25
GoldJim 

You cannot tune a guitar down to C# from E standard and expect the guitar to be playable. The strings are going to be like pieces of spaghetti. They will sound like shit, keep going out of tune and you'll get a ton of fret buzz.

The entire purpose of G-force was to make the process of altering the tuning of a guitar a lot more convenient. But if you want to tune down to C# from E standard and have the guitar be playable, you need to get a new set of strings. If tuning down to C# with a set of 10-46's works for you, then more power to you. But I think it sounds and feels like ass.

Restringing a guitar that has G-force tuners is no more convenient than it is with a regular set of tuners.

If you're willing to play the guitar in different tunings without making any other adjustments to the guitar, then more power to you. But I set up my guitars in a way that makes adjustments necessary because of how finely tuned the setup of my guitars are, and the nature of the tunings that I typically play in.

No auto tuning system on the market is capable of serving my needs (except perhaps Variax) and nor is there a need for one to exist in the first place. It's not like I cannot just pull another guitar from my wall that's already been set up and ready to go for that tuning. As far as I'm concerned, it solves a problem that doesn't exist, and it solves the problem in a way that is for my purposes at least, fundamentally flawed.
Quote by Axelfox
Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Quote by H4T3BR33D3R
I also have to do that. Cottaging this weekend
#26
Yep, I'm damn finicky when it comes down to consistent string tension (feel) and action. That's why I'll spend the money for a new guitar for different tunings. Just not willing to make the compromise.

For me, the only reason I'd look at one of the modern HP Gibsons would be the heel join. Have no idea what benefits there are to the titanium zero fret are?
Fleet of MiJ Ibanez
Couple of Balls
Peavey & EVH Wolfgangs
Eclipse
Fender HM Strat
Kemper KPA
5150 III 50w & cabs
#27
T00DEEPBLUE, your argument is predicated on that the G-force lets you do something you can't do with regular tuners. Wow, how inconvenient would it be to turn the tuners to get to a new tuning. No one has ever done this in the entire history of guitar. I've never been to Guitar Center, pulled a guitar off the wall and had it tuned to C# by someone who tried it out before me. Thank goodness they didn't have the G-Force system and it didn't allow them to change the tuning. The tuning pegs weren't designed to go that low.

Yes, that statement is absurd, as absurd as you saying that just because you can, you will. I don't recall ever having recommended that you use the system. Let me look back at the posts... One sec... Nope, not once. You aren't the OP and I wasn't giving my opinion to you or your use. I do get a kick out of this: nor is there a need for one to exist in the first place. Good thing Bob Dylan didn't take that advice when it came to the electric guitar, because people like you said the same things to him when he strapped on a Stratocaster.

Again, you stated your opinion based on never having used or owned a G-Force tuner and never having gigged with it. Good. I gave mine based on owning two and using them for years.

#28
Quote by DarthV
Yep, I'm damn finicky when it comes down to consistent string tension (feel) and action. That's why I'll spend the money for a new guitar for different tunings. Just not willing to make the compromise.

For me, the only reason I'd look at one of the modern HP Gibsons would be the heel join. Have no idea what benefits there are to the titanium zero fret are?
Well, it wears less than the brass one did...

But IIRC the big deal about it is that you can adjust the height of the nut, and angle it a bit so it's higher on the bass side or the treble side. Or maybe even have it level.

TBH, if I got an HP, I'd be changing those godawful pickup surrounds and control knobs, because they're ugly as sin. And much less enjoyable.
#29
Quote by GoldJim
I'd like to know how a loud environment or quiet environment effects the tuning system differently than a floor tuner or other head stock tuners.


I can't speak for headstock tuners. Don't own one.
Floor tuners depend on the magnetic pickups (usually) or a piezo pickup, and those are pretty much unaffected by a noisy environment. The G-Farce uses neither. I would expect that a headstock tuner might be affected the same as a G-Farce at some point.
#30
Quote by dspellman
I can't speak for headstock tuners. Don't own one.
Floor tuners depend on the magnetic pickups (usually) or a piezo pickup, and those are pretty much unaffected by a noisy environment. The G-Farce uses neither. I would expect that a headstock tuner might be affected the same as a G-Farce at some point.


I haven't had the problem, but I will watch for it. I've never been one to say, "this is right" in the face of being wrong. I do have a floor tuner and I do verify my tuning. Not all my guitars have a G-Force, I have a Fender and 2 Paul Reed Smiths. Love your intentional misspelling, BTW.

I do know that what was once a de facto tuner was the strobe, and similar discussions were made concerning the TU-2, which then became the tuner of choice. Now, I'm seeing headstock tuners being used in obviously loud situations by pro techs. I remember the discussions flying about how a headstock tuner couldn't possibly be accurate, but the usage is proving otherwise. Now imagine the headstock tuner is part of the headstock mechanics and doesn't rely on how well the clip is holding it. I use a headstock tuner for my 12- string acoustic Ovation at home, but ugh, those things are like pimples IMHO. A necessary evil at times. I wouldn't play the guitar in front of people with that thing on there though.
Last edited by GoldJim at Mar 1, 2017,
#31
GoldJim
I'm completely confused by post #24. While you can change to a limited number of alternate tunings with either standard tuners or the G-Farce (sorry, I'm just doing this to distinguish between the gizmo and the movie about intelligent super guinea pig spies*), I think we *might* all agree that neither is the best way to go about this compared to a specific set of strings and a properly set up guitar.

I'm too lazy to screw with all of this, and if I've got alternate tunings going on, I usually grab one of the Variax guitars. I can do alternate tunings up to an octave in either direction per string *without* changing string tension, and I can even change tunings several times within a single song if need be, no strumming required.

The other obvious benefit for me is that, since I have a LOT of guitars with Floyds (which do a great job of *keeping* the guitars in tune), I can grab a Variax with Floyd and change to alternate tunings all over the place.

The other obvious problem with a G-Farce is that it doesn't get along with a locking nut at all.

The G-Farce (well, in fact all of the various self-tuning gizmos Gibson has tried over the years) exists because the design of the Les Paul's headstock makes it difficult to keep in tune. Same goes for any similar headstock, such as that on an SG. Once away from those headstock shapes and there's much less need for a PowerTune/Tronical type solution. Most of my working LPs have Floyd Roses, and they stay in tune.


*
Last edited by dspellman at Mar 1, 2017,
#32
Quote by GoldJim


Now, I'm seeing headstock tuners being used in obviously loud situations by pro techs. I remember the discussions flying about how a headstock tuner couldn't possibly be accurate, but the usage is proving otherwise.


I've got nothing against headstock tuners -- I just don't have one. They're a couple of bucks in bins on the GC counters, so there's no reason NOT to have one, I suppose. Just haven't bothered. I *do* have tuners on my iPhone, though . I noticed one on a pickup ring a while ago; only a matter of time until Chris at Gravity Picks includes one in an ever-more-expensive pick...
#34
Quote by dspellman
I've got nothing against headstock tuners -- I just don't have one. They're a couple of bucks in bins on the GC counters, so there's no reason NOT to have one, I suppose. Just haven't bothered. I *do* have tuners on my iPhone, though . I noticed one on a pickup ring a while ago; only a matter of time until Chris at Gravity Picks includes one in an ever-more-expensive pick...


Might be because my iPhone is in an Otterbox Defender, but the tuner apps suck! Even when I use them with acoustics. There is a new tuner for the iPhone but if I remember right, it's a headstock tuner that's just a pickup that transmits back to a tuning app. So... It's a headstock tuner. IMHO, Gravity Picks are just too expensive now, no need to add that expense! I saw that ring, that was a gimmick. Did you see the one that controlled your pedals? Ugh! Don't do windmills, a' la Pete Townsend.

The headstock tuners have come a long way, I have to admit that.
#35
I am with dspellman on this.
WTLT 2014 GG&A

Quote by andersondb7
alright "king of the guitar forum"


Quote by trashedlostfdup
nope i am "GOD of the guitar forum" i think that fits me better.


Quote by andersondb7
youre just being a jerk man.



****** NEW NEW NEW!
2017-07-07 2017-07-07 Update and a Chat On Noise Constraints *** NEW FRIDAY 7/7
2017-04-13 RUN AWAY from COMPUTERS!!! TCE? RANT ALERT!!!
2017-03-02 - Guitar Philosophy 1001- Be Prepared For the Situation (Thursday 2017-03-02)
2017-02-21 How to Hot-Rod the Hell of your Stratocaster for $50! (Tuesday 2017-2-21)
Resentments and Rambling from a Guitar Junkie
---> http://trashedengineering.blogspot.com/
#36
Quote by GoldJim
dspellman,

Edited: Let's just agree that you do your thing. I do mine.


It would be sort of kinky if I did your thing.
#37
Quote by GoldJim
Might be because my iPhone is in an Otterbox Defender, but the tuner apps suck! IMHO, Gravity Picks are just too expensive now, no need to add that expense!


Couldn't tell you whether you could blame the Defender -- but those things are designed to bounce back into your hand after a 30' drop, right?
I priced one of the Gravity Pick "Gold" series that corresponds to what I'm using now. $29. For one pick. Plus delivery.
#38
Quote by GoldJim
T00DEEPBLUE, your argument is predicated on that the G-force lets you do something you can't do with regular tuners. Wow, how inconvenient would it be to turn the tuners to get to a new tuning. No one has ever done this in the entire history of guitar. I've never been to Guitar Center, pulled a guitar off the wall and had it tuned to C# by someone who tried it out before me. Thank goodness they didn't have the G-Force system and it didn't allow them to change the tuning. The tuning pegs weren't designed to go that low.

Is there a point to all this scathing sarcasm?
You aren't the OP and I wasn't giving my opinion to you or your use. I do get a kick out of this: nor is there a need for one to exist in the first place. Good thing Bob Dylan didn't take that advice when it came to the electric guitar, because people like you said the same things to him when he strapped on a Stratocaster.
How one can compare what Bob Dylan could've done with a Strat to what you can do with a set of tuners that can tune themselves rather than just you, tuning the guitar for yourself is a mystery that will never be solved.

Suffice to say, not all ideas are necessarily good ideas.
Yes, that statement is absurd, as absurd as you saying that just because you can, you will. I don't recall ever having recommended that you use the system. Let me look back at the posts... One sec... Nope, not once.
...
Again, you stated your opinion based on never having used or owned a G-Force tuner and never having gigged with it. Good. I gave mine based on owning two and using them for years.

Thing is, I have used them. How could I have not when almost every 2015 Gibson used them? And I've played the 2015 Gibson USA guitars, from an alpine white studio, to a classic, to a trad and to a standard. I just don't think the system is good. Sorry.

But nice assumption you made there anyway.
Quote by Axelfox
Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Quote by H4T3BR33D3R
I also have to do that. Cottaging this weekend
#39
This is me walking away from two people who supposedly moderate this board who are intolerant of the views of others and of their gear...
#40
Disagreement isn't intolerance. Nobody insulted your views or your gear, even after some of your less friendly replies. 

On-topic, I had a Robot SG for a while. I don't think the tuning system is refined enough to recommend to most players. People who change tunings a lot might benefit, but the hardware and sensor/algorithm drawbacks are significant. As mentioned earlier, automatic tuning doesn't do anything to prevent fret buzz or floppy string syndrome caused by tuning too far outside the setup. I think you'd have to really have a prior need for the system to make it worthwhile. The newer systems are a minor improvement in some areas but actually a step back in others - the old rotary controls were easier for me to see and use, for example, and I've had some issues with the newer ones not calibrating properly. 

Tuning system aside, SG or LP is its own decision that's probably got to come down to personal preference and hopefully choosing from a whole bunch of guitars you can play side-by-side. I'd spend a few hours at stores playing as many of each type as possible, and not just these models. It's easy to get hung up on models as a new player (especially with Gibsons) but they actually don't matter that much. If you get to sit down with a couple dozen new and used Gibsons, odds are good that you'll walk away with something other than what you thought you wanted at first. There's not actually a lot of correlation between price and quality with Gibson's core models (exceptions at the super low end and with the custom shop stuff). If you don't limit yourself to recent models with the tuning system, I think you'll have a lot more luck in finding something that's fantastic for you. 
Page 1 of 2