Poll: Do you think this guy's assessment is accurate?
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View poll results: Do you think this guy's assessment is accurate?
Yes
11 73%
No
4 27%
Voters: 15.
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#1
I hate for this thread to look like an advertisement to an article to get Reverb more views on its site, but assuming that what this representative says is true, I find it awfully surprising that such a representative would divulge such information.

https://reverb.com/news/guitaronomics-how-much-does-it-actually-cost-to-build-a-guitar?utm_campaign=FB170309adukguitarcost&utm_medium=FB

What are everybody's thoughts on this guy's assessment? 

Do you really think that the cost of labour really scales up so dramatically that the same guitar costing $200 if it were made in Indonesia would be over $1400 if it were made in the US?

Is it really as simple as just taking a guitar that goes for $500 retail and putting $200 worth of pickups in it, justify marking it up for retail at $900, as this representative implies? Or do you think that is a gross exaggeration, and there are many other processes along the way in the quality of the other materials of the guitar for it to retail at such a price point?

Discuss.
Quote by TheSennaj
And well yes, I'll enjoy the carpal tunnel and tendonitis, because trying to get one is clearly smarter than any word you have spoken thus far.
#2
I agree with it in a broad sense, that labour is the key variable, though the markups seem a bit high. I was involved in research and we could get a pretty good estimate of total operating cost by looking at the front line wage bill - in our case multiply it by 2.5.
#3
I think it's simplification, but gets the general point across. I have a Squier Bullet and a Schecter Stiletto 5, both are made in Indonesia, but the MSRP for the Stiletto is at least $500 vs the $130 for the Bullet. Labor is part of it, but not the only thing. I'm not sure if Fender had a top-end Strat that might get an MSRP of $1400 would necessarily end up on the same price level as a Squier Affinity or Classic Vibe price point. I think it stood a better chance to drop it below $1000 if the exact same MIA guitar was done in Indonesia. $200-400? That just seems to ask a helluva lot.
Guitar/Bass:
Schecter: Damien 6/Stilletto Extreme 5, Squier: Bullet HSS*, Washburn RX10*/WG-587, Agile Septor 727
*mods

Amps/FX
Peavey: Vypyr 30/Max 112 (200W), ISP: Decimator

Quote by dannyalcatraz
Understood- I waste money on amps*, too.
#4
Quote by bjgrifter
I'm not sure if Fender had a top-end Strat that might get an MSRP of $1400 would necessarily end up on the same price level as a Squier Affinity or Classic Vibe price point. I think it stood a better chance to drop it below $1000 if the exact same MIA guitar was done in Indonesia. $200-400? That just seems to ask a helluva lot.

My thoughts exactly.

I don't understand how moving the manufacture of the exact same guitar from China to the USA automatically makes the same guitar cost 6x more. Sure I'd expect it to be more expensive, but literally over 6x more seems absurd. And if it somehow does, I'd love to know cos there's an awful lot in that article that the representative is not telling us about.
Quote by TheSennaj
And well yes, I'll enjoy the carpal tunnel and tendonitis, because trying to get one is clearly smarter than any word you have spoken thus far.
#5
I'd say his overall analysis is correct, but I can't speak to the $ figures he's using. They could be 100% correct.

A few weeks ago, I was looking at some hourly wages in the USA vs Mexico for certain factory jobs. The Mexican wages before our election were just under 1/3 the rate for Americans. With the talk of tariffs & trade wars, the peso has lost value vs the dollar, so those workers are now effectively paid less than 1/4 of American laborers.*

Those hours & $ add up quickly. If- all that CNC aside- you need a craftsman in Mexico to take 4 hours to do certain fine finishing touches on a guitar at $10/hr, that's $40 to the bottom line cost of production. Assuming his American counterpart is no faster, and is paid 4x the hourly wage, that's $160. If there are 3 such stages in guitar building that require that level of skill & time, the import just added $120 to its costs, compared to $480.

And Chinese labor costs are lower than those in Mexico.

* For those keeping track, depressing labor costs in other countries makes outsourcing MORE reasonable in free market capitalism, and is counterproductive to bringing jobs back.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#6
Thing is, even those American manufactured goods- guitars included- may be dropping in price because of technological advances.

I saw a presentation in 2012 or so in which a robotics company unveiled a prototype of a modular robot that could be programmed to do over 250 different manufacturing tasks, depending on the particular modules installed. Its base cost depreciated over 5 years under standard accounting rules + operating costs was approximately the same as that as 5 years salary for a typical Asian factory worker. Any production after 5 years is even cheaper.

This has several implications if they're right. Boiled down: there won't be as much offshoring of jobs because companies will be able to build many things for the same price, anywhere in the world. Cheap goods everywhere!

...of course, with even the Asian workers losing jobs to automation, who is going to be buying anything?

Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#7
Yes those figures seem right.
Protecting your country of origin line is now more about branding then it is about real value.
Ibanez is doing something funny where they basically aren't innovating their mij line at all and adding features to their Indonesian line.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#8
far more involved than just labor.  benefits, taxes, environmental considerations, power  etc. all way higher in the US.  i kinda doubt that many of the workers at say the fender plant are making $40 hr like the article suggests probably closer to half that. some do but the grunts don't. 

have worked in manufacturing for many years and even in the US you'd be suprised  what things actually cost to make in terms of raw materials.  often next to nothing. even with the labor costs and overhead added in the actual cost is often fairly cheap compared to the price when it hits retail. keep in mind that thee is often at least one or more links in the chain from factory before a product actually hits the shelves. all mark it up to make some money. it adds up in the end. 
#9
There's a few factors here. I feel like the article doesn't state the basics of manufacture/retail that well, nor does there appear to be anything particularly unique to guitars.

The new product process is very simple - you identify a market your range doesn't already cover but you feel falls within the scope of your brand's demographic. Perhaps it's Ibanez and they think fairly knowledgeable but budget conscious fans of whatevercore want a more metal looking telecaster around the $800 price point.

Every time any retail item changes hands, its price doubles. This is true in basically any sector. Let's say there's four steps (pretty standard) which are manufacturer -> brand -> distributer -> retailer. Therefore Ibanez buys their $800 consumer price guitar at $100 each and sells it at $200.

They then need to estimate how many they can sell within whatever time their cashflow allows (this will depend on lead times, credit terms and the company's liquidity, difficult for me to estimate but let's say they operate on an annual basis) and multiply that by their profit per unit ($100) and then half that figure to get their budget for design, marketing etc. Ibanez is now making $50 per $800 guitar.

Design: you remember that Ibanez is buying each guitar from the factory at $100. This means the factory is going to have a parts budget for each of approx. $50. Also every time they have to change something in the process, it costs the time for that change in terms of volume output, plus the economies of scale you lose from making the change. This is why lower end guitars have fewer options.

I'll finish this in a later post if there's interest
#10
No question that most Fender employees don't make $40+/hr, but those that do and who actually work on construction? Those costs add up fast.

A manager who makes $40/hr has many reports, and the cost of his labor is spread over entire shifts. He might only add a few pennies to the bottom line of a given guitar. But a craftsman with the same salary? His hourly rate applies to each piece he touches.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#11
Quote by dannyalcatraz
No question that most Fender employees don't make $40+/hr, but those that do and who actually work on construction? Those costs add up fast.

Fender have the advantage of owning their own manufacturing though

That's going to give them a better margin than their competitors who contract out
#12
Quote by AcousticMirror
Yes those figures seem right.
Protecting your country of origin line is now more about branding then it is about real value.
Ibanez is doing something funny where they basically aren't innovating their mij line at all and adding features to their Indonesian line.

Yes. And so much more obvious in the current models.
#13
Here's the thing.  Most folks figure that the selling price (not the MSRP) of a guitar is 6-10 times the cost. In the case of imported guitars, that cost usually means F.O.B., sitting on the dock. Remember that IN that cost price is the actual cost of labor and materials, profit for the manufacturer and shipping. 

Manufacturers in the US have a similar multiple. That's standard industry marketing. 

What's crazy is that there are imported guitars out there that sell for $100 and the seller is making a profit. So you can walk back the numbers to figure what materials to build a guitar actually cost. 
#14
Quote by dspellman
What's crazy is that there are imported guitars out there that sell for $100 and the seller is making a profit. So you can walk back the numbers to figure what materials to build a guitar actually cost. 
You don't even need to do that. They're just cutting out the middle-man and ordering straight from the factories. https://www.alibaba.com/products/F0/guitar/CID100005413.html
#15
Quote by smb
Fender have the advantage of owning their own manufacturing though

That's going to give them a better margin than their competitors who contract out


True...and other companies have had similar or other advantages. Tacoma, for instance, owned their own forest.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#16
It occurs to me...there could also be some common American billing practices that figure into inflating the costs of things as well.

For instance, I have a certain hourly rate I charge as an attorney or mediator. If I had a law clerk doing research for me, I could bill my client for that research at my hourly rate, not at my clerk's hourly rate.

I'm not saying the are, but if American guitar makers are likewise billing some of the hand work done by apprentices at master craftsmen's rates, that's another inflationary driver.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#17
I think it's generally only in particular circumstances a company would do that internally in manufacturing.

Overcharging between subsidiaries can happen to shield profits from tax. I also knew someone who had a profit sharing contract with a creditor - he set up a separate ltd and bought his stock through that and so moved the profits out of the original ltd. There's also BT who during privatisation overcharged the nationalised company they were spun off from so the profits were moved from the taxpayer owned to the private owned portion.

I don't think it would make sense in contracted manufacturing either - you'd typically agree the spec and the price up front and try and save within that budget.
#18
Slightly tangential:

If you wanted to start a company that could sell a good quality guitar at a reasonable price, there's a number of options that I don't think have necessarily been fully explored.

The Ikea model - cut costs by leaving the final assembly to the customer - also save a lot on transportation of components compared to shipping completed guitars.

The Argos model - make the distribution and the retailer the same thing - don't spend money having a traditional shop but just have a warehouse the end customer can collect from. Also saves the last-mile delivery an online store has to charge for or the low-volume delivery cost traditional retailers have to eat.

The Dell model - do your final assembly in-house from off-the-shelf components. You need a pretty efficient assembly line but you save because shipping components is a lot cheaper than finished product *and* you can upsell like a motherfucker

The Ourscreen model (I'm sure there's a better example of a company doing this) - Would-be customers submit their own spec and you finalise the design - when there's enough interest in a particular model at an economic price you get it manufactured - saves on research/design, marketing and with pre-orders it makes your cashflow a lot easier too
#19
I'd imagine the numbers are of the 'back of a fag packet' accuracy. If the guy is a genuine insider, he's going to be intentionally vague so he's harder to identify just in case there are repercussions, so there's probably a fair bit of truth in spirit, even if the actual figures are out.
Quote by Diemon Dave
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#20
smb

The first two alternative business models you list- nicely done, btw- you mention would essentially be the various guitar kits and Carvin/Kiesel or US Masters (now shuttered), respectively. It should also be noted that a company can use more than one business model.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#21
The last one in particular has really got me thinking

there's got to be a viable business in there somewhere
#22
Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
My thoughts exactly.

I don't understand how moving the manufacture of the exact same guitar from China to the USA automatically makes the same guitar cost 6x more. Sure I'd expect it to be more expensive, but literally over 6x more seems absurd. And if it somehow does, I'd love to know cos there's an awful lot in that article that the representative is not telling us about.


You would need to know what China/Indonesia/ Mexico are paying their laborers I do not have exact figures but it is significantly less than what workers in make in the USA, there is a reason U.S. companies are outsourcing jobs to Asia and Mexico and why Mexican's are coming to America for better job opportunities. Is it 6X I don't know but I'd bet is a big difference, also China doesn't bother to slow down their production by creating safe work enviroments with pesky guards on machinery that slows the workers down.
"A well-wound coil is a well-wound coil regardless if it's wound with professional equipment, or if somebody's great-grandmother winds it to an old French recipe with Napoleon's modified coffee grinder and chops off the wire after a mile with an antique guillotine!"
- Bill Lawrence

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#23
smb

It's almost kickstarter type stuff.

I don't know if it would support a small guitar company, but it probably COULD support a small guitar company's Limited Edition models.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#24
Quote by dannyalcatraz
It occurs to me...there could also be some common American billing practices that figure into inflating the costs of things as well.  

For instance, I have a certain hourly rate I charge as an attorney or mediator.  If I had a law clerk doing research for me, I could bill my client for that research at my hourly rate, not at my clerk's hourly rate.

I'm not saying the are, but if American guitar makers are likewise billing some of the hand work done by apprentices at master craftsmen's rates, that's another inflationary driver.



Most *manufacturers* don't have "master craftsmen" building guitars. That includes Gibson and PRS and Taylor. These are mostly task-oriented low-buck jobs (check out the jobs listings for these places sometime) that hold down a spot or two on a production line. The tasks themselves aren't much more complicated than building a burger at McD's.  
#25
Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Do you really think that the cost of labour really scales up so dramatically that the same guitar costing $200 if it were made in Indonesia woud be over $1400 if it were made in the US?.

i don't think it would, "all other things being the same".

using the same quality level of materials as a $200 made in indo squier, the USA version with the same pups, hardware, finish, etc everything, no. i don't think it would ever sell for $1400.



i think the quality of all the parts would need to be superior to pull that kind of cash. as in, better than a USA Standard Strat or Tele. (which sell new here in the US for 2/3 of that $1400 tag).
I wondered why the frisbee was getting bigger, then it hit me.
Last edited by gregs1020 at Mar 15, 2017,
#26
Quote by Evilnine
China doesn't bother to slow down their production by creating safe work enviroments with pesky guards on machinery that slows the workers down.


That's actually not true -- I think the Qindao Epi plant is cleaner, better organized and safer than the Gibson plant here in the US. 
#27
dspellman

I'm not talking about guys building a guitar start to finish. I'm talking about guys who are doing some of the finer finishing work- @1-3 hours of work on a guitar, max.

Technically, most of them doing that work would be considered journeyman/apprentices. But if they're supervised by an actual master craftsman, they can charge that employee's rate for the work.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#28
Quote by dspellman
That's actually not true -- I think the Qindao Epi plant is cleaner, better organized and safer than the Gibson plant here in the US. 


That makes it one of the exceptions.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#29
Quote by dspellman
That's actually not true -- I think the Qindao Epi plant is cleaner, better organized and safer than the Gibson plant here in the US. 


The last company I worked for opened a manufacturing plant in China some of the poeple who were going to be in charge of the plant came to learn our operations and our expectations as for as quality. I was the lead quality inspector and was asked to let them shadow me for a week to see our inspection process. This was a fast paced manufacturing enviroment theat made OEM automotive gaskets for Ford, Chrysler, GM , Caterpillar etc. hundred of gasket could be stamped out in miuntes on some of the presses so we constantly rotated between presses to inspect the product. It was said more than once by the man who was to be in charge of the China plant that the machines could produce at a fater rate if the safety guards etc. were removed and that is exactly what they planned to do.

I may have over generalized but clean safe manufacturing facilities are not what China is known for:

https://www.wired.com/2015/04/inside-chinese-factories/

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-30532463

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/05/business/worldbusiness/05sweatshop.html

FWIW when I toured the Memphis Gibson plant last summer it did not appear to be an unsafe working enviroment to me.
"A well-wound coil is a well-wound coil regardless if it's wound with professional equipment, or if somebody's great-grandmother winds it to an old French recipe with Napoleon's modified coffee grinder and chops off the wire after a mile with an antique guillotine!"
- Bill Lawrence

Come and be with me
Live my twisted dream
Pro devoted pledge
Time for primal concrete sledge

Last edited by Evilnine at Mar 15, 2017,
#30
Quote by Evilnine


FWIW when I toured the Memphis Gibson plant last summer it did not appear to be an unsafe working enviroment to me.


I didn't say it was an unsafe working environment. But honestly, there aren't a lot of "guards" anywhere in the Gibson factory, either. Jobs in the plant are task-oriented. I'm not sure that it's an altogether safe environment, either, particularly around the solvents and VOC's used in the paint department. Tennessee is not a state known for strict environmental working conditions, and Tennessee lawmakers have grandfathered in a lot of processes and worker exposure that would be outlawed in, say, California. Take a tour of the Gibson plant and follow that immediately with one of the Taylor plant near San Diego and you'll notice a whole lot different attitude toward cleanliness and worker safety.  The Qindao plant isn't using nitrocellulose-based paints, for example, and the solvents aren't as toxic as they are at the Gibson plant. 
#31
Quote by dannyalcatraz
That makes it one of the exceptions.

Very possibly. Some of the "show-off" plants that buyers see on tours can be quite different from those that actually produce goods "around the corner."  That said, Chinese workers are demanding a lot more (and getting it), and prices of produced goods are rising, just as they did in Korea. Some plant owners have chauffeur-driven Mercedes and opulent lifestyles, which was an eye-opener given the "communist" government. 
#32
If making Nike shoes in the USA woudl make them cost $600 per pair, how come New Balance can sell them starting at well under $200?

http://www.newbalance.com/made-in-us-and-uk/
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#33
Quote by dspellman
Very possibly. Some of the "show-off" plants that buyers see on tours can be quite different from those that actually produce goods "around the corner."  That said, Chinese workers are demanding a lot more (and getting it), and prices of produced goods are rising, just as they did in Korea. Some plant owners have chauffeur-driven Mercedes and opulent lifestyles, which was an eye-opener given the "communist" government. 


True, true.

OTOH, you could see the same kind of thing at the height of the Soviet kleptocracy.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#34
Quote by Evilnine
You would need to know what China/Indonesia/ Mexico are paying their laborers I do not have exact figures but it is significantly less than what workers in make in the USA, there is a reason U.S. companies are outsourcing jobs to Asia and Mexico and why Mexican's are coming to America for better job opportunities. Is it 6X I don't know but I'd bet is a big difference, also China doesn't bother to slow down their production by creating safe work enviroments with pesky guards on machinery that slows the workers down.

although the perception that china always skips saftey seems to be in the news all the time it's not true. both the Squier and Epiphone factories do indeed have saftey features as they were setup by the parent companies. my brother lives in China currently and has visited both factories on business. now if we were talking a factory strictly run by the chinese well that may be a different case. they have gotten better on the whole about that as to often bad accidents get into the international press. 
#35
China doesn't care too much about bad press. Not as much as we do, at least.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#36
Quote by Dave_Mc
If making Nike shoes in the USA woudl make them cost $600 per pair, how come New Balance can sell them starting at well under $200?

http://www.newbalance.com/made-in-us-and-uk/



Mostly because they do not say Nike and are not having to pay Micheal Jordon, not that their product is not just as good they just don't have the cool factor or street cred.   I am not a Nike fan by the way I work for Nike's biggest competitor.
"A well-wound coil is a well-wound coil regardless if it's wound with professional equipment, or if somebody's great-grandmother winds it to an old French recipe with Napoleon's modified coffee grinder and chops off the wire after a mile with an antique guillotine!"
- Bill Lawrence

Come and be with me
Live my twisted dream
Pro devoted pledge
Time for primal concrete sledge

Last edited by Evilnine at Mar 16, 2017,
#37
Dave_Mc Mostly because they do not say Nike and are not having to pay Micheal Jordan, not that their product is not just as good they just don't have the cool factor or street cred.   I am not a Nike fan by the way I work for Nike's biggest competitor.
"A well-wound coil is a well-wound coil regardless if it's wound with professional equipment, or if somebody's great-grandmother winds it to an old French recipe with Napoleon's modified coffee grinder and chops off the wire after a mile with an antique guillotine!"
- Bill Lawrence

Come and be with me
Live my twisted dream
Pro devoted pledge
Time for primal concrete sledge

#38
Dave_Mc  It just shows that it's not a matter of not being able to manufacture in the US while making a profit, but mostly about not wanting. The claim that the costs in the US are prohibitive is just marketing. Aside from not paying multi-millionaires more millions to pose for a picture, I imagine that NB executives also have more modest income ambitions compared to Nike executives. 
#39
In addition to what others have stated, consider the power of the Nike brand name, the size of their TV advertising budget.

If you want a similar comparison, look at big pharmaceutical companies budgets over the past 30 years, and see how they've greatly increased the amount of advertising they do on television (to consumers who cannot simply buy their product) AND in print and other formats to MDs who have a direct say in who gets prescribed what.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#40
^ To be fair, they're not allowed to advertise prescription medicines here.

But yeah I mean I kind of resent being told a pile of crap. And then asked to pay for it (advertising).

Quote by Evilnine
Dave_Mc Mostly because they do not say Nike and are not having to pay Micheal Jordan, not that their product is not just as good they just don't have the cool factor or street cred.   I am not a Nike fan by the way I work for Nike's biggest competitor.


Yeah.

Quote by dthmtl3
Dave_Mc  It just shows that it's not a matter of not being able to manufacture in the US while making a profit, but mostly about not wanting. The claim that the costs in the US are prohibitive is just marketing. Aside from not paying multi-millionaires more millions to pose for a picture, I imagine that NB executives also have more modest income ambitions compared to Nike executives. 


In addition, New Balance makes shoes in the UK as well. They start at around £100.

They could be totally wrong, but I know that on the fretboard forum (a more UK-centric forum than this one), they always say that manufacturing anything in the UK is much more difficult than the USA, because of the much higher business taxes, safety laws, etc. etc. etc..
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
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