#1
I saw on a recently bumped thread from I think Slide 90027 regarding bass stacks and The Who.
Let us get rid of some of the myth once and for all
The initial reason for the big stacks was that the 12" speakers available in the 1960s would only handle 25 watts with a 4x12 = 100 watts, but the real problem back then was that these figures were quite false because if you had a 100 watt output amp you were instructed to have 200 watts of speakers hence two 4x12 cabs with a theoretical handling of 200 watts.
The celestion 12s in an AC30 Vox in the 60s were only rated at 15 watts each. 
G&L L2500
Squier Affinity Jazz Bass 5
Ashdown RPM pre-amp
Ashdown Little Giant 1000
300 watt 15" powered cab
450 watt 15" powered sub bass cab
2x10 + horn
1x15x10 + horn
#2
AlllllllllRiiiiiiiiighty THEN!

John, first of all, and most importantly, I appreciate your experience and have always valued your perspective.

Second, what I will entertain has its limits.

Now, I had a post,  In that post the title was clear that the subject was regarding Wattage.  That was the subject.

Also, in this post, there were some comments and there were some responsive statements of historical fact repeated by me as I recall from Mr. Pete Townsend of The Who.

You attempted a pivot on the Thread.  I respectfully sent to you a Private Message on your Non Sequitur and respectfully directed you again to the subject being Wattage.

Your response has been to take my name in vain and misrepresent my words.

I have never intentionally don that to you, and really never will for I see no point to such behavior.

Remove references to me if this is what you want to talk about, because I, Me, My existence has no effect on the Historical Fact that John Entwistle used Two Marshall or Hiwatt stacks to Mr. Pete Townsend's corresponding one.

I, Me, My existence has no effect on the reasoning presented by Mr. Townsend and his story.  Mr. Entwistle is dead so he cannot explain what was going on.  Nevertheless you are in England, so I suggest that you go see Mr. Townsend.

As for Vox v, Marshall, all I have ever heard or read on was that the Vox Amps were not being reliable enough for their road work

Finally, I have never known, nor represented myself as knowing anything about the individual specifications of the speakers of either Marshall or Vox, or posting anything of the sort that you are alluding to.

Please do say what ever you like, but delete my name kind Sir.

Good Night.
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#3
I was of the impression that Jim Marshall created the 4x12 cabinet because Pete Townsend was a twisted guy who insisted that Marshall build him a few 8x12 cabinets, and Townsend's roadies threatened to have him killed if he didn't get rid of them:





God help anyone who had to lift those things!
"Maybe this world is another planet's hell?" - Aldous Huxley
#4
Sounds like justifiable homicide.
Guitar/Bass:
Schecter: Damien 6/Stilletto Extreme 5, Squier: Bullet HSS*, Washburn RX10*/WG-587, Agile Septor 727
*mods

Amps/FX
Peavey: Vypyr 30/Max 112 (200W), ISP: Decimator

Quote by dannyalcatraz
Understood- I waste money on amps*, too.

justinguitar.com is the answer
#5
So basically, what I am hearing is that the song "We Won't Get Fooled Again" is basically a roadie's gripe with these cabs?
#6
Quote by FatalGear41
I was of the impression that Jim Marshall created the 4x12 cabinet because Pete Townsend was a twisted guy who insisted that Marshall build him a few 8x12 cabinets, and Townsend's roadies threatened to have him killed if he didn't get rid of them:





God help anyone who had to lift those things!

Very true, they were monsters just like the ampeg 8x10" cabs, but the real reason was that they could build amplifiers of just about any wattage but the loudspeakers were another story. it wasn't until more recent years that speaker developement came on in leaps and bounds. I proved the loudness versus volume theory by one night placing my Bass cabs at each end of the band at a venue we regularly played I asked fellow musicians and my wife of 51 years if they noticed any difference and all agreed that it was a much warmer and fuller sound with the cabs separate without being loud and offensive.
When the bands like The Who were using these masses of stacks it was before the days of Miking up or 'DI'ing and the use of the 'Behind the cinema screen Altec Voice of The Theatre' cabs were used. Concerts that I've been to in recent years don't use the floor to ceiling stacks of cabinets of 20+years ago many are now built like large Hi-Fi cabinets (not talking about outdoor festivals).
G&L L2500
Squier Affinity Jazz Bass 5
Ashdown RPM pre-amp
Ashdown Little Giant 1000
300 watt 15" powered cab
450 watt 15" powered sub bass cab
2x10 + horn
1x15x10 + horn
#7
No doubt designed by someone on some seriously mind-altering drugs, I present the Crate 16x12" Blue Voodoo cabinet!  Two of them, in fact!



Try moving THAT sucker!!!

That's a 600-watt Crate Blue Voodoo amplifier on top, with a typical 120-watt Blue Voodoo stack next to it for size comparison.
"Maybe this world is another planet's hell?" - Aldous Huxley
#8
Quote by FatalGear41
No doubt designed by someone on some seriously mind-altering drugs, I present the Crate 16x12" Blue Voodoo cabinet!  Two of them, in fact!



Try moving THAT sucker!!!

That's a 600-watt Crate Blue Voodoo amplifier on top, with a typical 120-watt Blue Voodoo stack next to it for size comparison.

Bloody Hell. That could seriosly damage your hearing.
G&L L2500
Squier Affinity Jazz Bass 5
Ashdown RPM pre-amp
Ashdown Little Giant 1000
300 watt 15" powered cab
450 watt 15" powered sub bass cab
2x10 + horn
1x15x10 + horn
#9
"Could"?

I think that might also shatter glass.
Guitar/Bass:
Schecter: Damien 6/Stilletto Extreme 5, Squier: Bullet HSS*, Washburn RX10*/WG-587, Agile Septor 727
*mods

Amps/FX
Peavey: Vypyr 30/Max 112 (200W), ISP: Decimator

Quote by dannyalcatraz
Understood- I waste money on amps*, too.

justinguitar.com is the answer
#10
Quote by bjgrifter
"Could"?

I think that might also shatter glass.

Just think: Your very own sonic weapon of mass destruction!!!
"Maybe this world is another planet's hell?" - Aldous Huxley
#11
Quote by FatalGear41


That's a 600-watt Crate Blue Voodoo amplifier on top, with a typical 120-watt Blue Voodoo stack next to it for size comparison.

Things have changed. I'm routinely running a 1500W power amp into a pair of cabinets a girl could single hand (well, one of them) into a venue. Sometimes use a second 1500W for two more cabs, but those usually aren't pointed at the audience, and I'm not miked. 
#12
Quote by FatalGear41
I was of the impression that Jim Marshall created the 4x12 cabinet because Pete Townsend was a twisted guy who insisted that Marshall build him a few 8x12 cabinets, and Townsend's roadies threatened to have him killed if he didn't get rid of them:

God help anyone who had to lift those things!


Most of those got cut down to 4x12 size; it's hard to find one intact. They were acknowledged to be a bad idea just as soon as the first factory worker connected with them left for hernia surgery. 

John Swift: "I proved the loudness versus volume theory by one night placing my Bass  cabs at each end of the band at a venue we regularly played I asked  fellow musicians and my wife of 51 years if they noticed any difference  and all agreed that it was a much warmer and fuller sound with the cabs  separate without being loud and offensive."

I don't think you "proved" much of anything -- if you put speakers everywhere in a venue, you can run much smaller volumes for each individual speaker because now everyone can hear everything everywhere. If you give everyone headphones, it does the same thing.  

Lest other bass players think it's a good idea to spread their cabinets out all over the place, be aware that there are phasing issues and bass "alleys" that can be formed by putting  bass cabinets or subs on either side of the stage; it's current best practice to put all subwoofers in one place, either on the side of the stage or under the center. You still get 180 degree or better coverage from that spot, but without the phase issues. See here for a discussion of that: http://www.iatse122.org/Subwoofers_Phase.pdf
#13
Quote by Sliide90027
My existence has no effect on the Historical Fact that John Entwistle used Two Marshall or Hiwatt stacks to Mr. Pete Townsend's corresponding one.


John did that because those speakers really were never built to handle bass. "Power Handling" with most speakers is a movable feast, and with bass it's not really a great measure of speaker capability. You're requiring, generally, a lot more from a voice coil and from the speaker's excursion limits to produce volume equal to a guitar. I think the ratio is that it takes about four times as much power to produce the same volume for a note an octave down. IOW, to match the volume a screeching guitar playing at 250Hz (somewhere near middle C) at 125Hz, you need four times the power. The fundamental range of a bass is 40-400Hz, with the most interesting bits in modern recordings done at around 90-200Hz. 

With continuous music, like that of an organ keyboard, power handling (which is essentially the ability of the voice coil to throw off heat) is important. With a bass guitar, however, the excursion limits are more important by far. The idea of more speakers is to keep the individual speaker's excursion range low while moving an equivalent *volume* of air using increased cone area. 
#14
That was interesting.

With my citations to the words of Misters Townsend and Entwistle am still opposed in stating what I read from them without any reference to a website or discussion board that disproves the 2 to 1 ratio for Bass frequencies.

And yet again, my existence does not alter, cause, or change any of what these men lived as performers.
Ibanez BTB 1006 Fretless and 405 (no Barts)
456 & 455(w/Barts)
Genz Benz NeoX400 112T & NeoX 112T cab.
Digitech BP-8 (x2)
Yamaha PB-1
Boss: SYB-5, PS-2, OD-20, EQ-20, PH-3,BF-3, CE-20, DD-20
Morely A/B
#15
Quote by dspellman
Most of those got cut down to 4x12 size; it's hard to find one intact. They were acknowledged to be a bad idea just as soon as the first factory worker connected with them left for hernia surgery. 


I don't think you "proved" much of anything -- if you put speakers everywhere in a venue, you can run much smaller volumes for each individual speaker because now everyone can hear everything everywhere. If you give everyone headphones, it does the same thing.  


Didn't mean all over the venue.
G&L L2500
Squier Affinity Jazz Bass 5
Ashdown RPM pre-amp
Ashdown Little Giant 1000
300 watt 15" powered cab
450 watt 15" powered sub bass cab
2x10 + horn
1x15x10 + horn
#16
Quote by dspellman
John did that because those speakers really were never built to handle bass. 

Yes, but he always stuck with guitar amplifiers and cabinets in large part because he viewed the bass as a "bass guitar."  He always cut back on the bass EQ and cranked the treble and distortion to get a more guitar-like tone.  It worked for him, but to cover the bass frequencies, he played at ear-shattering volumes.
"Maybe this world is another planet's hell?" - Aldous Huxley
#17
Quote by John Swift
Didn't mean all over the venue.

Understood, though the point stands. And you still have power alleys to contend with. 
#18
Quote by FatalGear41
Yes, but he always stuck with guitar amplifiers and cabinets in large part because he viewed the bass as a "bass guitar."  He always cut back on the bass EQ and cranked the treble and distortion to get a more guitar-like tone.  It worked for him, but to cover the bass frequencies, he played at ear-shattering volumes.


Entwhistle, IMHO, was, with Moon, more responsible for the sound of the Who than either Daltry or Townshend, and for years a lot of what some folks thought were guitar parts were really Ent doing his thing. Modern speaker systems allow you to cover treble/distortion AND the bass frequencies without some of the volume, but it's worth remembering that in the day, being known as the loudest band in town was part of the sell, along with Edwardian costumery and equipment destruction.   Mountain certainly prided itself on blowing out fieldhouse windows, and Grand Funk Railroad was one of the first concerts where I left the building and still had a great time at the concert, hearing everything at much more reasonable volumes out on the lawn. 
#19
Quote by dspellman


Lest other bass players think it's a good idea to spread their cabinets out all over the place, be aware that there are phasing issues and bass "alleys" that can be formed by putting  bass cabinets or subs on either side of the stage; it's current best practice to put all subwoofers in one place, either on the side of the stage or under the center. You still get 180 degree or better coverage from that spot, but without the phase issues. See here for a discussion of that: http://www.iatse122.org/Subwoofers_Phase.pdf


I would argue that, if using multiple cabs, it's a better idea to separate them asymmetrically. Standing waves happen, that's a fact of sound waves and room interaction. But by using asymmetrical placement, you essentially 'fill in the holes' made by the room nodes.
#20
Quote by Deliriumbassist
I would argue that, if using multiple cabs, it's a better idea to separate them asymmetrically. Standing waves happen, that's a fact of sound waves and room interaction. But by using asymmetrical placement, you essentially 'fill in the holes' made by the room nodes.

Unfortunately, that doesn't work all that well, either. You trade one set of issues for another, as if the lines are still drawn, but are slightly different. There's a bunch of stupid math that deals with all of this, but it makes my eyes cross.
#21
Quote by FatalGear41
Yes, but he always stuck with guitar amplifiers and cabinets in large part because he viewed the bass as a "bass guitar."  He always cut back on the bass EQ and cranked the treble and distortion to get a more guitar-like tone.  It worked for him, but to cover the bass frequencies, he played at ear-shattering volumes.

Entwhistle also bought his strings straight from the factory before the final polishing/smoothing took place as he believed that the final process dulled the tone down.
G&L L2500
Squier Affinity Jazz Bass 5
Ashdown RPM pre-amp
Ashdown Little Giant 1000
300 watt 15" powered cab
450 watt 15" powered sub bass cab
2x10 + horn
1x15x10 + horn
#22
Quote by dspellman
Unfortunately, that doesn't work all that well, either. You trade one set of issues for another, as if the lines are still drawn, but are slightly different. There's a bunch of stupid math that deals with all of this, but it makes my eyes cross.


I'm up to my eyes with the Schroeder Frequency and Sabine equation. It hurts. It actually hurts. And unfortunately everything's a compromise with rooms and audio.
#23
Quote by dspellman
Unfortunately, that doesn't work all that well, either. You trade one set of issues for another, as if the lines are still drawn, but are slightly different. There's a bunch of stupid math that deals with all of this, but it makes my eyes cross.

But concert rigs are separate, so are side fills. from my own experience of playing large venues (Royal Festival Hall London) down to small pubs spreading the sound gives a warmer more volume of sound as opposed to a small scource (2x12) cranked up till it becomes offensively loud just hittling a narrow band of the audience in the face.
G&L L2500
Squier Affinity Jazz Bass 5
Ashdown RPM pre-amp
Ashdown Little Giant 1000
300 watt 15" powered cab
450 watt 15" powered sub bass cab
2x10 + horn
1x15x10 + horn
#24
Quote by John Swift
Entwhistle also bought his strings straight from the factory before the final polishing/smoothing took place as he believed that the final process dulled the tone down.

Alchemy. Eye of newt, toe of frog. Small incantations, planetary energy formations. Whatever it takes. 

Oh, and skill, an ear, talent and a lot of hard work. 
Whatever it was, he seems to have put it all together pretty well. 
#25
Quote by John Swift
But concert rigs are separate, so are side fills. from my own experience of playing large venues (Royal Festival Hall London) down to small pubs spreading the sound gives a warmer more volume of sound as opposed to a small scource (2x12) cranked up till it becomes offensively loud just hittling a narrow band of the audience in the face.

I'm not arguing against you, but "warmer" isn't one of the things I've ever gone for in a sound system; so many times the sound guy has said those words and what we were greeted with was Wall Of Mush. 

That said, the model of every instrument for himself plus a couple of columns of PA system off to the sides for (mostly) vocals was really superceded back in the early '70's. But there are still bar bands that continue with that, and they have a bunch of 2x12s sitting horizontally on the floor behind them. Ack!