#1
Hey,
I wanted to hear some opinions on this...

I am looking to get a pedal to give me an extra push during certain parts in a song (Chorus... Bridge...) and allow that separation. I do use a boost pedal already but mainly for leads and solos. I was wondering if another overdrive could work on top of the overdrive I already use or would a second boost be a better alternative.
#2
What gear are you currently using (what amp, guitar etc.) and are you using amp distortion or pedal?

Do you want a volume boost or a distortion boost or both?
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#3
Dave_McHughes and Kettner tube head into an orange cab. Telecaster and Jazz master. My main overdrive pedal is the Mooer Green Mile. I am looking more to boost the volume than anything. Which I was already doing w my volume pedal but it doesn't add the push that I am looking for.
#4
Why not just turn your boost higher? Or set your baseline volume lower to start? Don't go buying new gear because your drummer's half deaf.

You might benefit from running multiple levels of drive, so that you have an intermediate setting that isn't just quieter distortion. Then you can use your boost pedal for either one. You might also consider an EQ pedal. Boosting the mids or highs can push you through the mix. It may not be volume so much as tone that you need. Remember that the tone you use for rhythm and lead parts is usually very different.

And what's the application here? is this for live music? In a mix, your presence is controlled chiefly by the raw amount of sound you're producing, not just the "loudness" of it. A full chord with moderate drive comes through the mix much better than a single note with tons of distortion. In my experience, that loss of texture causes instruments to drop out of the mix more than simply playing at a lower volume.
#6
Okay. You want a boost pedal but you want to put it in your effects loop and not in front of the amp. A boost before the amp will only increase drive rather than raise volume (assuming you are playing distorted). Same thing with the volume pedal. Volume pedal should go in the effects loop. As a rule of thumb, compressors should always go before any boost or distortion. Volume pedals and boosts with the intent of raising volume come after distortion (including after the amp's distortion, ie in the effects loop). Overdrive or boost pedals with the intent of driving the amp harder should come after the compressor but before the amp.

So your chain should be something like: guitar > compressor > overdrive/boost for gain > amp > (effects loop send here) > modulation > volume pedal/boost for volume > delay > pedal reverb > (effects loop return here) > amp reverb. I mean, that's the general order and you can certainly mess around with it to get different sounds, but that's generally the best order for most people. Don't know if you're running a delay or compressor or modulation pedals, but if you are then there you go.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#7
Quote by mattplayscheap
cdgravestotally not what I mean but it's okay. I am definitely interested in an EQ. Any suggestions?

I'm afraid I don't use one, myself, but there are a handful out there. I imagine they're like any other pedal - you get what you pay for.

Either way, theogonia777 is getting after the same point I was: the way you stack your gain stages matters. Anything before the tubes is going to affect your tone, and will have limited effect on your volume because the signal gets compressed by the tubes. But the natural compression isn't so hard that you run into a volume limit. The problem is when you feed the amp an extremely dirty, fuzzy signal, it compresses the loudest waves the most, resulting in an apparent volume drop. In other words, you get saturation without volume.

My personal preference is to put the boost in the pedalboard because I think a change in tone goes with a change in volume. It seems strange, in a live situation, for the guitar to get more intense with only a volume change. As you create more space, you need to use that space differently. I have my drives stacked lightest to heaviest, which keeps them fairly saturated and prevents the volume from jumping too much when used together. Putting a light boost after the main overdrive will give you a lot more boost, but it tends to sound harsh.
#8
That's not quite right. With audio processing, components can only handle a certain level. Anything about that level will cause will overload that component and cause clipping, which squashing dynamics the way. The result of clipping varies, but the higher the signal, the more clipping. Higher levels of clipping cause distortion.

Generally speaking, distortion in audio is unwanted but it sounds cool on guitars. So guitar equipment takes advantage of this. You have the pre-gain level, which boosts the signal before the threshold. That way, you can control the amount of clipping and therefore the amount of distortion. Then the level or post gain control controls the boost after the threshold, which does not cause clipping. You are just making an already clipped signal louder. Similarly, putting a volume pedal prior to distortion or using the volume knob will simply lower the gain being put into the pre gain stage and so it won't affect the volume.

When you feed a clean boost into an amp, you are increasing that input gain. It's essentially the same thing that the gain knob that controls distortion in the pre-amp does. Generally speaking, most overdrive pedals used as a boost are used this way as well (increasing gain before the amp's threshold) since most guitarists will turn the level control up and the distortion level on the drive pedal down.

So what is the difference if they are both doing the same thing essentially? Clean boosts are designed to be transparent (ie they don't cause tonal change) while overdrive pedals are not. In this way, even with the drive level of the overdrive pedal down to reducing clipping in the level threshold of the pedal, it is changing the tone in a way that guitarists find desirable.

Now, that isn't to say that guitarists can't turn the drive up on their overdrive pedal they are using as a boost. This will create a mildly clipped signal (though you could of course use a higher gain distortion pedal and get harder clipping if you want) which then gets boosted by the amp. This causes an already clipped signal to be clipped more. This has a similar effect but is not quite the same. But either way, you're not increasing volume with anything that is driving the front end of a distorted amp.

Once you get to the effects loop, which is beyond the pre gain (distortion) stage, any clean boosts will not cause any more distortion.

So that is basically the basics of gain. You can go find some visuals if that helps. I'm sure that there is a Wikipedia article on audio distortion and clipping that have visuals of level thresholds and how overloading them causes clipping.

Incidentally, this relates to why distortion has a natural compressing effect that creates sustain (or at least what guitarists call sustain since it is not sustain in the true sense), but that's for another time.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#9
You could try training your band to play dynamically, as in, "Hey guys, during the chorus and bridge, come down so my guitar steps out a little more forward, OK?"... but your prospects are not good. You are already using a boost for solos, so clearly they don't get it, don't know how or why to come down for soloing. Using a boost is just going to make them play louder to fill the gap, leading you wonder if you need a third boost to get over them.

Pro Advice: Never boost; always have everyone else come down.  If they can't or won't do this you need to replace them with musicians.
Quote by reverb66
I'm pretty sure the Bible requires that you play through a tube amp in Texas.
#10
Quote by theogonia777
This has a similar effect but is not quite the same.  But either way, you're not increasing volume with anything that is driving the front end of a distorted amp.


This is only true once the tubes are actually clipping. With most amps of decent wattage, you're not putting enough into the tubes to cause them to drive on their own. They're just amplifying the signal from your pedalboard. You usually have quite a bit of headroom in which boosting the front end gain does indeed increase the loudness coming from the speaker.

I usually play through a 50W amp and it gets loud as shit before the tubes break up naturally. Like uselessly loud. My 15W amp, however, breaks up lightly if  the pre-gain goes past like 5. Using that small amp is when I notice the issue you're talking about.
#11
Quote by cdgraves
This is only true once the tubes are actually clipping. With most amps of decent wattage, you're not putting enough into the tubes to cause them to drive on their own. They're just amplifying the signal from your pedalboard. You usually have quite a bit of headroom in which boosting the front end gain does indeed increase the loudness coming from the speaker.

I usually play through a 50W amp and it gets loud as shit before the tubes break up naturally. Like uselessly loud. My 15W amp, however, breaks up lightly if  the pre-gain goes past like 5. Using that small amp is when I notice the issue you're talking about.

If you are playing into a 'distorted amp' as theogonia is indicating, and that amp is a tube amp, then the tubes most certainly are clipping... Power amp tubes might not be, but something must be...

One thing to note: if you do run avolume boost in the effects loop, and you have a low headroom power amp, then it may increase power amp clipping as well as volume, and after a certain point will perhaps only increase clipping... But generally what theogonia said is correct
RIP Gooze

cats
#12
Quote by cdgraves
This is only true once the tubes are actually clipping. With most amps of decent wattage, you're not putting enough into the tubes to cause them to drive on their own. They're just amplifying the signal from your pedalboard. You usually have quite a bit of headroom in which boosting the front end gain does indeed increase the loudness coming from the speaker.

I usually play through a 50W amp and it gets loud as shit before the tubes break up naturally. Like uselessly loud. My 15W amp, however, breaks up lightly if  the pre-gain goes past like 5. Using that small amp is when I notice the issue you're talking about.


Wow... you realize that some people... try to stay with me... actually use the pre amp gain on their amplifier, right?
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#13
^ LOL

Pretty much agree with theogonia777.

Only thing I'd say is, depending on the pedal and the amp settings, an OD pedal into the front of the amp can increase the volume a bit (or at least make it seem like the volume has increased) even if the amp is dirty, depending on the tone of the pedal (tubescreamer- and sd1-types are very middy which tends to sound louder) and the amp setting (if the amp isn't completely saturated, odds are you'll get a bit of both volume and extra overdrive from a boost in front).

And regarding the clean boosts versus ods, that thing about changing the tone is kind of in theory- there are clean boosts which aren't completely transparent (or even totally clean ) and there are OD pedals which are designed to be transparent tonally.

But that's by and large nitpicking, I more or less agree with all you wrote. As you said, a boost in the loop is probably the easiest way to get more volume, assuming the amp's not totally cranked.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
Last edited by Dave_Mc at May 30, 2017,