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#1
https://lasvegassun.com/news/2017/jun/16/germany-set-to-open-its-first-liberal-mosque-in-be/

Seyran Ates' vision of a liberal mosque where all Muslims can pray together — women and men, Sunni and Shiite, straight and gay — is almost a reality, and the 54-year-old daughter of Turkish guest workers in Germany is ecstatic as she enters the light-flooded room undergoing its final touches.

"I couldn't be more euphoric, it's a dream come true," Ates said with a smile as she touched the white carpet that three Turkish workers were laying out in the freshly painted room.

Ates, a well-known women's rights activist and lawyer, has fought for eight years to establish a place of prayer for progressive Muslims in Germany where they can leave their religious conflicts behind and focus on their shared Islamic values. The mosque, which opens Friday, will be the first of its kind for liberal Muslims in Germany, Ates said.


Let's all stop both with the islamophilia and islamophobia and put attention to things that can help solve many problems, like this.

Good for Syeran, I hope she gets much more support and more and more of these "liberal mosques" are created, not only in Germany but all over the world. The first action is to create such mosque, and the second action is for it to thrive and receive positive social publicity and attention. We can handle that 2nd part.

Post more stories of liberal muslims doing good work and trying to create a culture where islam and western values coexist, and trying to push back against an islamic culture that is the root of many of today's problems.

P.S: I hope to see the anti-islam crowd here also posting support.
Last edited by gonzaw at Jun 16, 2017,
#5
in that moment, she is euphoric
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#7
Surely "liberal" and "muslim" are incompatible terms?  

  

    

                
I have nothing important to say
#8
I support the idea, but Im sceptical it'll work

And yeah "progressive Muslim" is an oxymoron
Eat your pheasant
Drink your wine
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#9
Quote by BladeSlinger
in that moment, she is euphoric


Wanted to post this; upset I was beaten to it?
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#10
If she wanted to be really liberal she could have just abandoned this ass backward religion altogether.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#11
Quote by Xiaoxi
If she wanted to be really liberal she could have just abandoned this ass backward religion altogether.


You can't have 2 billion people abandon a religion. What you can do is make their culture have increasingly more progressive and liberal values (and eventually they'll abandon the religion)
Seriously, what do you propose otherwise? What do you actually want? This is a step for a solution where everything is at the very least 1000x times better (e.g no ISIS, no Sharia).
If you want every muslim to instantly leave their faith I'm all ears for proposals.

Quote by Bladez22
I support the idea, but Im sceptical it'll work


It won't work without support and awareness. Conservative muslims will shit on that gal and the people going to that mosque, nobody will lift 2 fingers for her, she might even get killed, nobody will bat an eye, and things will continue the same. If nobody even pays attention to this situation of course "it won't work".

Imagine a school in a deeply racist place in the US decides they'll start teaching progressive and liberal values and will vow to end racism and discrimination in there. Would you say "That's cool, but I doubt it'll work" and procede to do nothing while black people get beaten to death there?

Quote by Bladez22
And yeah "progressive Muslim" is an oxymoron


So is "progressive Christian", "progressive Jewish", etc. Yet we don't seem to have much problem with supporting Christians and Jews who do good deeds, who have progressive values, etc.
#12
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/muslim-peace-march-held-germany-turnout-disappoints-48103807

A Muslim "peace march" against terrorism has been held in the German city of Cologne but has drawn fewer participants than organizers had hoped for.

The country's biggest Islamic association had refused to take part in the march. The Turkish-Islamic Union argued it would send the wrong signal by suggesting that international terrorism is mainly a Muslim problem. It also said Muslims observing the Ramadan fast couldn't be expected to march for hours in summer temperatures.


Just like the OPs actions should be supported, these peace marches should be supported, and actions against them should be condemned.
So, the Turkish-Islamic Union did wrong and should be ashamed. They care more about "not giving the wrong signal" than actually supporting peace and supporting calls for it, as well as supporting calls for ending islamic violence.

Imagine a big group in the US not going to a LGBTQ support march because "it would send the wrong signal by suggesting violence against LGBTQ is mainly a problem with white and straight people".
#13
Quote by gonzaw
Yet we don't seem to have much problem with supporting Christians and Jews who do good deeds, who have progressive values, etc.

We? Excuse me, but yes, I do have a problem with them. They're called hypocrites, and should be avoided at all costs. They're more dangerous than sociopaths, because sociopaths cannot choose their own behavior; this new breed of criminal can.
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#14
im skeptical it'll work because it sounds like more backpatting and "look not all Muslims are bad, some are good". We're not allowed a real discussion on the issues the Muslim community face because it's perceived as racist

I'm just done with arguing about this shit tbh. Lefties don't want to acknowledge any problems because racism, and righties want ridiculous measures. Both are dumb, Muslims are dumb, religions are dumb, I'm dumb, we're all dumb
Eat your pheasant
Drink your wine
Your days are numbered, bourgeois swine!
Last edited by Bladez22 at Jun 17, 2017,
#15
1 mosque is not change.
Until they come out with a "New Testament" of the Koran that corrects certain passages, Islam will be a problem, and this mosque will be a target for a lot longer than 1 year.
#16
33db
Let's be fair and reasonable now

The New Testament didn't help Christianity out of its flaws that much in the first place
they're coming to take me away
ha-haaa
#17
Quote by Banjocal
33db
Let's be fair and reasonable now

The New Testament didn't help Christianity out of its flaws that much in the first place

Depends on your point of view, I think it helped make sheep of people, what with all the "poor is closer to god" "turn the other cheek" and other pacifist propaganda.
Hell Rome liked that part of it so much, they adopted it as their official religion.

Nothing like an ideology that makes compliant sheep.

The Koran is chock full of violence and calls to violence, 1 gay mosque isn't going to change anything.

“Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them” (Koran 2:191),
“Make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood” (Koran 9:123), “
When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them” (Koran 9:5),
“Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam” (Koran 5:33),
“Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies” (Koran 22:19)
“Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an” Koran 8:12.
#20
maybe people can go to religious services and not actually be 100% committed to the dogma and other negative aspects? maybe they don't even believe it, but participate in some small way for their more closed-minded family?

mmmmm....

sounds a lot like my relationship with Catholicism...

maybe Islam doesn't focus as much on self-loathing though?
mugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmug
#21
33db 

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, Bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despite-fully use you, and persecute you" Matthew 5:44
#22
Quote by 33db
1 mosque is not change.
Until they come out with a "New Testament" of the Koran that corrects certain passages, Islam will be a problem, and this mosque will be a target for a lot longer than 1 year.


You think it's impossible to have cultural changes in islamic communities without modifying the original text? How did this Ates girl even become a "progressive" in the first place, considering there doesn't exist a "New Testament" for the Quran?

If she could become progressive, why can't every other muslim out there? Like, I'm all for everybody in the world to become atheist and be good people and whatnot ... but that's not feasible. I want to stop shitty cultures, ideologies and global problems (like terrorism, civil wars, etc) before getting into that atheist utopia (which would likely have many problems of its own too).

Quote by 33db
Apparently she bailed on her legal career due to death threats.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17847605


Islamic patriarchal communities in Europe suck. We should all support Ates and muslims like her. People like her have no visibility in mainstream media, and when she gets death threats or faces mountains to climb nobody supports her nor even acknowledges her. Uber-tolerant leftist/centrist ignore her, and pro-muslim-ban right-wingers ignore her too. What the fuck? Do people actually want this problem to be solved? Everybody is just stuck into their little closeminded model of reality and are stuck with their ill-conceived solutions and are hellbent on not conceding anything nor change their point of view.

Again, I'm telling you stuff like this will solve the problem of radical islam. We just need to make it viral and make lots of outrage and social ruckus about it. We can make Gangnam Style viral, we can make Kony 2012 viral, we can make fidget spinners viral, we can instantly get outraged when Trump says something sexist. Why can't we use that power to support people like Ates? Fuck I'm getting frustrated about this ...

Some few feminist critics get death threats when they criticise gamer journalists and we get a huge outrage with GamerGate that lasts for years. Yet here a muslims progressive lawyer gets death threats and less than 45 people hear and care about it. For fucks sake world.

Quote by Bladez22
im skeptical it'll work because it sounds like more backpatting and "look not all Muslims are bad, some are good". We're not allowed a real discussion on the issues the Muslim community face because it's perceived as racist

I'm just done with arguing about this shit tbh. Lefties don't want to acknowledge any problems because racism, and righties want ridiculous measures. Both are dumb, Muslims are dumb, religions are dumb, I'm dumb, we're all dumb


Read the link 33db posted before:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17847605

"If we don't stop the political-religious movement, I'm sure we have much more Islamization in Germany in next five to 10 years," she says. "If we are going to stop that movement and separate politics from religion, then we will have chance for Islam to be compatible with democracy."


She is critical of political Islam, and is an actual feminist trying to improve the lives of girls living in fucked up patriarchal communities (inside Germany). She specifically wants a "real discussion on the issues the muslim community faces".
I mean, she specializes in feminism and helping women. That does come with criticising the horrible sexist issues from muslim communities and cultures. She doesn't specifically attack radicalization or stuff like that, but she's still doing good. Her criticism is a first step into taking a good look at such communities and trying to get them to change. I'm sure stopping radicalization and the assholish/jihadist parts of political Islam can come from such efforts too (you just need another person like Ates who focuses on those).
#23
And that's great, but it's what I and many others have been trying to say for years but have been shouted down and called racist over, so now I just don't really give a shit
Eat your pheasant
Drink your wine
Your days are numbered, bourgeois swine!
#24
Quote by jakesmellspoo
maybe people can go to religious services and not actually be 100% committed to the dogma and other negative aspects? maybe they don't even believe it, but participate in some small way for their more closed-minded family?

mmmmm....

sounds a lot like my relationship with Catholicism...

maybe Islam doesn't focus as much on self-loathing though?

If apostasy was declared invalid in Islam, they would lose over 80% of their followers overnight.
Quote by gonzaw
How did this Ates girl even become a "progressive" in the first place, considering there doesn't exist a "New Testament" for the Quran?

If you had bothered to read the article I posted. 
At 17, Ates ran away from home and sought refuge in a shelter for  battered women. Coming from a family tradition where, she says, women  have no rights, at first she found that even the smallest decision  caused great anguish. 
"To open the magazine and looking for a  movie what you want to see, these were really big problems for me in the  first half-year," she says. "I need to understand I can open magazine  and look for a movie, and say in this cinema I want to go. In the age of  18 I have to learn that."
     
Only three years later, while she was living at a women's  center, a band of Turkish youths broke in and started firing guns. Ates  was shot in the throat. The woman next to her was killed.
Ates vowed she would become a lawyer and fight for women's rights, and that no man would spoil her dream.


Everyone needs to wake up to what Islam is, an expansionist, oppressionist ideology with a thin coating of "religion".
Last edited by 33db at Jun 18, 2017,
#25
Quote by Bladez22
And that's great, but it's what I and many others have been trying to say for years but have been shouted down and called racist over, so now I just don't really give a shit

That is what is wanted, for you to give up speaking out.
#26
Quote by 33db
That is what is wanted, for you to give up speaking out.
no just u.

am i doing it right pit? it's been a while. this guy seems like a new eyenon type
mugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmugmug
#29
Quote by Achilles175
33db 

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, Bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despite-fully use you, and persecute you" Matthew 5:44

Exactly the sort of sheep making propaganda I referred too, that sort of weakness won't work against Islam, their "bible" encourages them to kill you.
#30
Quote by 33db
That is what is wanted, for you to give up speaking out.


Yeah don't worry, I still think you're a complete spacker, I just cba to explain why over and over again
Eat your pheasant
Drink your wine
Your days are numbered, bourgeois swine!
#31
Quote by Bladez22
Yeah don't worry, I still think you're a complete spacker, I just cba to explain why over and over again

So literally every post I've made was a spacker (I looked that up not very PC of you) post then? I mean as far as you're concerned?
#32
Yes, and stop replying to me
Eat your pheasant
Drink your wine
Your days are numbered, bourgeois swine!
#33
Quote by Bladez22
Yes, and stop replying to me

Including this one then?
Quote by 33db
This thread posited curing "gayness", my offering is why cure the weirdos that aren't really bothering other people, why not instead cure the bullies and psychos.

That way everyone that's a little off the "normal" spectrum could be free to be themselves, without worrying about abuse or physical violence..
#34
33db 

I understand that Islam is very violent, but I repeatedly notice whenever there is a Muslim related terrorist attack the so called "Progressive Muslims" claim that the terrorists are not true Muslims or that they've hijacked their religion, though it seems that the terrorists are in fact the true followers.

But I do not feel that you should be so negative of Christians who are trying to live peacefully in a very violent time. I do agree with you in your views about political correctness and that we should say what we think without worrying what some group will think of it.

Personally though I think the whole purpose of this thread is to incite quarrels.  
#35
Quote by Achilles175
though it seems that the terrorists are in fact the true followers.

The scholars and ex-Muslims I respect claim this as well, it is embedded into the ideology

But I do not feel that you should be so negative of Christians who are trying to live peacefully in a very violent time. I do agree with you in your views about political correctness and that we should say what we think without worrying what some group will think of it.

I'm generally not negative about Christianity, however it would be hypocritical of me (IMO) to stand against one religion while supporting, by ommission or otherwise, another deistic religion.
The problem is that people are willing to believe God spoke to one man, with some expectation he would "spread the word" at a time when it was literally impossible to carry the word to every part of the World.
That is just one example of the BS that permeates religion, I also believe that religion hijacked the natural inclination of the human to feel connected to the World and the Universe in general.
Many of you have felt what I mean by this "connection", this is a good thing, a peaceful thing, and it was polluted by a man made lie.

The basis for the top 3 Abrahamic religions is complete and utter foolishness.
While Christianity may appear peaceful now, it was at one time quite bloody, and could become so again.
Instead of "freedom of religion" it should be freedom from religion.

Personally though I think the whole purpose of this thread is to incite quarrels.  

And that is truth.
Last edited by 33db at Jun 18, 2017,
#36
Quote by Achilles175
33db 

I understand that Islam is very violent, but I repeatedly notice whenever there is a Muslim related terrorist attack the so called "Progressive Muslims" claim that the terrorists are not true Muslims or that they've hijacked their religion, though it seems that the terrorists are in fact the true followers. 


And that is wrong. "progressive muslims" who ignore that should be shamed, while "progressive muslims" who acknowledge that and want to make changes (like Ates) should be supported. I don't see anything else we, as a mob of social media and media users, can do (well, electing people who don't bomb the middle east, bar ISIS, is a good option too).

Though, people like Ates haven't explicitly said the ideology and religion of Islam is responsible for this. For instance, Ates rightfully complains about sexism and abuse of muslim women in islamic communities, but doesn't really make any assessment as to why that is, and whether Islam has something to do with it or not. At the very least she identifies a problem with "political Islam" and fights against it. But I'm not sure if it'd be wise for her to straight up criticise Islam, while being muslim herself, and while wanting change from the islamic community (if she goes criticising Islam the whole community will reject her, but doing what she does now the community might feel compelled to listen to her and change). That ... I don't know. Maybe there can be another example of someone who does exactly that so we can see its repercussions and analyse the best possible solution for this.

Personally though I think the whole purpose of this thread is to incite quarrels.


Why do you think that?
#37
i think we should ban islam
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#38
Quote by gonzaw

Why do you think that?

Because that is usually all that happens.
#39
Quote by kalypto
i think we should ban islam

Muslims are willing to die for it, Christians are not, guess who will win.
One day you folks here will come to the same conclusion as the "woke", we are at war, it's just that the shooting hasn't started yet.
#40
Uh yeah we've literally been at war for like 15 years
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