Poll: Which amp has the closest sound to a Diezel VH4?
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View poll results: Which amp has the closest sound to a Diezel VH4?
Soldano Avenger
1 20%
Bogner Shiva
0 0%
Neither
4 80%
Voters: 5.
Page 1 of 2
#1
I played a Diezel VH4 at a guitar store a while ago and I was blown away. It's become my dream amp... but what wasn't amazing was the $4,400 price tag. So I did some looking for amps under $2000 that sound like a VH4. I've heard that the Bogner Shiva and the Soldano Avenger (basically an SLO-100 but without cleans and much less expensive) can get close to a Diezel VH4. Out of those amps, which is the closest? I'm guessing the Soldano Avenger would cut nicer in the mix, but the mid scooped (not really scooped, but not as much mids as the Soldano) sound of the Bogner would be closer to a Diezel VH4. Or I might be completely wrong.

If these amps both sound nothing like a Diezel, what amps do?
#2
I haven't played a VH4 so we'll start with that qualification

The Shiva and the Avenger/SLO sound nothing like each other. So I don't know how they're supposed to fit in with sounding like the VH4, but I'd take that with a grain of salt. Maybe the VH4 kind of splits the difference between the two (in which case the 20th Anniversary Shiva is a good candidate) but I suspect that's not quite the whole picture. 

So, let's start by figuring out what you actually want, because neither of these amps are a cheaper version of the VH4 anyway, so try to focus on specific things you liked about it to look for in other amps. The Shiva, for example, has some sag, a lot of low-mids, and a thick voice but is less of a metal oriented amp. The Avenger is tight, more focused in the mids and highs, and is very aggressive with more available distortion.

From what little I know of Diezel, I think the Uberschall would be the more comparable Bogner. The Shiva can do high-gain, but the Uberschall is designed specifically for the chugga-chugga thing and has way more distortion, aggression, and a more modern voicing. Definitely available used under $2000.
#3
Roc8995

Thanks for the reply!!
I know that these amps are quite different beasts, but I've heard they both are in the same field of a VH4. From your descriptions, I think the Avenger sounds like it would fit the sound I'm looking for better than the Shiva. I'm looking for something like the distortion sound in this video, which comes from a Diezel VH4 into a Soldano cabinet. Skip to 1:34 if you don't wanna hear the clean bit (I already have a good clean amp, so cleans don't matter to me)

The Uberschall also seems like it would fit my needs nicely. What do you think?
Last edited by kaiburns1 at Jun 18, 2017,
#4
If you've already got a good clean amp I'd get the Avenger or a Twin Jet. 

I think the depth control is standard on the Avenger now, but make sure you get one with it. Between those two, I'd have a hard time choosing. The Bogner I remember being more throaty and the Avenger tighter. They're both super good amps, I don't think you'd have a problem sounding like that with either of them. It'll just come down to whether you like the Bogner low-mids or the Avenger mid-treble, I think. 
#5
Roc8995

Hm... that's a toughie. I think I wanna go with the Twin Jet. I just have to wait until I find one floating around that's under $2000. If I can't, then I'll get the Avenger. Thanks for your help

But that leads to another question... what cab should I use? I want a 4x12 one. Should I go with a Soldano cab (like the guy in the video, Matt Bellamy), or should I get the Bogner Ubercab, which is made for the Twin Jet?
Last edited by kaiburns1 at Jun 18, 2017,
#6
Quote by kaiburns1
I played a Diezel VH4 at a guitar store a while ago and I was blown away. It's become my dream amp.
.. but what wasn't amazing was the $4,400 price tag. So I did some looking for amps under $2000 that sound like a VH4. I've heard that the Bogner Shiva and the Soldano Avenger (basically an SLO-100 but without cleans and much less expensive) can get close to a Diezel VH4. Out of those amps, which is the closest? I'm guessing the Soldano Avenger would cut nicer in the mix, but the mid scooped (not really scooped, but not as much mids as the Soldano) sound of the Bogner would be closer to a Diezel VH4. Or I might be completely wrong.


If these amps both sound nothing like a Diezel, what amps do?

None do. Even the Diezel VH4 is very different from a Herbert or Hagen or Lil Fokker.

Once you get the itch, nothing else will do.

While scratching the itch, try out the following, too: Bogner Ecstasy and Uberschall Twin Jet, Fryette UltraLead or CLX, ENGL Invader and SE670, Hughes & Kettner TriAmp MK II / MK III.

edit: The Uberkab is either V30s or V30s and T75s.
#7
Ippon

The Bogner Ecstacy is way too expensive. I'm going with the Twin Jet, and if I can't find it under $2000 I'll get the Avenger. I'm sure the Avenger can get the tone I linked. Maybe with a little hint of a fuzz factory pedal

What cab should I use? Soldano 4x12 or Bogner Ubercab. I'm kind of leaning towards the Soldano cab.
#9
Ippon

That would make sense, but I feel like going with the Soldano cab for both, cause of Matt Bellamy using one with his VH4.

If I end up deciding to get a Soldano instead of the Twin Jet, I think I'm gonna stay with the Avenger because it's pure SLO-100 overdrive tone, while the HR is more like a hot rodded JCM 800. While they are both great, I'll find more use in the Avenger, as there aren't very many times I need a Marshall type sound. If I ever do though, that'll be the first amp I'll look at
Last edited by kaiburns1 at Jun 18, 2017,
#11
Ippon

When I was playing the Diezel, I also played a Fryette that same day. It sounded good, but the gain was more like a 5150 than a VH4. It was very mid scooped and very tight (a little too much imo). I think the Twin Jet sounded a lot smoother and overall better. Or maybe the Fryette I tried was a dud.
#12
Nothing sounds like the vh4.

You should check out the Randal 667 tho.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#13
it's utterly ages since I've tried all 3, and I didn't try them head to head (so bear that in mind... probably different speakers/cabs and guitars too ), but I'm not sure I'd say any of those sound that similar. the shiva is more or less a marshall jcm800 type thing, isn't it? while the avenger sounds soldanoish, which is more of an 80s high gain type of tone more than modern which the vh4 is (darker).

i haven't tried it but if you're looking at bogner i'd have thought the ueberschall would be closer (but as I said, I haven't tried it so I could be way off). or even a mesa recto or something like that.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
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#14
Dave_Mc

Yeah, I've decided to wait for a Twin Jet to pop up on the used market somewhere under $2000, and also try out the Diezel VH2, which is coming out soon.

If none of them work out, I'll get the Avenger and try my hardest to get that Diezel tone I linked out of it. A compressor pedal and a low treble knob would probably get me close.
#15
You could try. It's probably not going to work. The design philosophies of the vh and the avenger are too different.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#17
Related but not an amp. Could try the VH4 pedal if your clean amp does pedals well?

Probably doesn't compare to the amp itself, but haven't seen/heard either of these in person.

Probably closer than those amps could get.

#18
Liaztraht

Sadly my amp does not do well with drive pedals. It's a Vox AC30, and they are very picky.

I think I'm gonna wait for the Diezel VH2 to come out and then wait for it to pop up on the used market. If not, then I'll go with a Twin Jet (maybe with that pedal, mixed in, or a fuzz factory) which I'm sure will get me close enough.
#19
kaiburns1
Well darn. It does rather suck when things are too spendy. I find Rockerverbs to be too spendy and they're my dream amp. Luckily there are cheaper amps that get close to it.

Don't comprise too much. Try and stay at least 80/85 percent close or you may not be thrilled. That's what I do.
#20
Liaztraht

I think waiting for a VH2 isn't too much of a compromise, because the tone is the exact same as the town from the VH4.

However, if it's too expensive and doesn't show up used, then the Twin Jet should get me close enough as well... atleast 80-85 percent.
#23
I'm pretty sure the Diezel pedal is a preamp pedal so while it works through clean channel it works best when its connected straight into power amp, FX Return that is. If your Vox has FX Loop you should be able to bypass its pedal unfriendly preamp and tonestack completely and get Diezelish tone out of it. (minus the power amp, it also has effect on tone and Vox is obviously very different from Diezel)

AMT also has such preamp pedals in their Legend serie called AMT D1 and D2. So far from what I have heard they have been quite good in cloning famous tube preamps into solid state form (search 5150 vs P1 blind test in youtube. P1 through real 5150 power amp was virtually indistinguishable from the real thing) so the Diezel copies may be good too. They are also much cheaper than official Diezel one (though mind you AMT lacks Presence and Depth controls) so its not that big loss of money if the result is not to your liking.

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Cort EVL-K47B

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Last edited by MaaZeus at Jun 18, 2017,
#24
Quote by Dave_Mc
the shiva is more or less a marshall jcm800 type thing, isn't it? 

I've heard enough people say this that I feel like I'm missing something, but I just don't hear them as similar at all. The Shiva is fairly Marshally, for sure, but beyond that the Shiva is antithetical to the 800: thick, dark, compressed, big low mids and bottom end with a fair amount of sag. 

They are both mid-high gain amps with British voicing, but after that the similarities fall apart IMO. Maybe I just haven't played a good JCM800, but I tend to dislike their sound/feel while I'm a big fan of the Shiva. 
#25
MaaZeus

Skipping the preamp on Vox amps is pointless, because they bypass the master knob and automatically turn it all the way up.

I could get the Twin Jet and use the VH4 pedal in a mix with the distortion of the Twin Jet. Or I could get an Avenger and do the same thing but add a compressor pedal too... that would get pretty close.
Last edited by kaiburns1 at Jun 18, 2017,
#26
Quote by kaiburns1
Ippon

When I was playing the Diezel, I also played a Fryette that same day. It sounded good, but the gain was more like a 5150 than a VH4. It was very mid scooped and very tight (a little too much imo). I think the Twin Jet sounded a lot smoother and overall better. Or maybe the Fryette I tried was a dud.

There are various Fryette models, The UltraLead/CLX are the ones to get.  The VH2 sounds promising and the Lil Fokker is pretty nice, too.
#27
Honestly man, I wish I was in the same boat as you even considering such an amp. 

The way I see it, this will likely be an end-game amp for you.  The VH-4 is highly versatile and there is nothing quite like its brootz channel.  An Uberschall Rev 2 would be the closest, albeit different.  I think what you're up against is an Uberschall vs. VH4.  They are pretty much equals in terms of raw, ridiculous, thick brutality, but different flavors.  Personally, I think I'd prefer an Uber, but I haven't actually played either one in person.  I'd see if I could get my hands on a Rev 2 to see if you like it as much as a VH-4, but if there's even a slight hesitation -- my advice would be to save for the VH4.  Both are expensive, even used -- and I think if you went with something that truly wasn't your favorite, you'd lose money in the process of getting what you want in the end.  If you're lucky, you'll try an Uber and like it even more, which is quite possible.
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#28
KailM

I'm not really looking into playing brutal metal... I just want to get the tone from the video I linked. I think both a Twin Jet or a Soldano Avenger could easily get a tone like that if you mix the distortion of those amps with a Diezel VH4 pedal and a compressor pedal (for the Avenger). Maybe even a bit of fuzz mixed in too, just to get a little bit of fuzziness to my tone, like Matt Bellamy has with his VH4 rig.
#29
kaiburns1

You mean volume? The pedals also have a volume knob, that becomes the new master volume.

ESP LTD F-50 + Tonezone
Cort EVL-Z4 + X2N
Cort EVL-K47B

Marshall Valvestate 8100
Randall RG1503
Bugera 333
Peavey Rockmaster preamp

Line6 Pod X3
#30
MaaZeus 

Oh yeah, you're right. I'll get the Soldano Avenger, because a Soldano sound will be the most useful for me when I'm not trying to get a Diezel sound.

The only difference I've found between the Diezel pedal and the VH4 is that the pedal doesn't have the deep bass that a VH4 has, but in a mix it wouldn't make much difference. I can also turn up the deep switch on the pedal too. To mimic channel 4 of the VH4, I can turn up the gain a smidge and turn up the mids on the pedal... 

What do you think? Will that get me close to the Diezel sound I'm after?

If you don't know the exact sound I'm looking for, watch this whole video... it should give you a good idea:
Last edited by kaiburns1 at Jun 18, 2017,
#31
MaaZeus 

Also... in the video I just linked, at 1:45 and at 4:59 it sounds like he's got this weird chorus effect on the guitar. Do you know what it could be?
#32
1:45 sounds like a slicer to me, 4:59 may be a chorus or a slight ring mod. Did you try Googling that player's gear? There's a couple helpful websites:  equipboard.com and  www.uberproaudio.com.

Also +1 to that 667 suggestion, I popped into this thread just to say that. The 667 can get mighty close to the VH4 Channel 3 on its Channel 5 (or Channel 3 mode 1 if you prefer).
The above post is in terms of 'YMMV' and 'IMO', etc...

Quote by Offworld92
This debate is exhausting to read.
The guitar world is drowned in fairy dust.
We need to start at the very beginning. What is tone.
#33
kaiburns1  To be honest, I have no idea since I have no personal experience with Diezel amp nor the Diezel pedal, just what I have read about it and tests/comparisons around the internet. But what I do know that if actual Diezel amp is too expensive then a preamp that mimics that amp is the next logical step. It is what I would do.

ESP LTD F-50 + Tonezone
Cort EVL-Z4 + X2N
Cort EVL-K47B

Marshall Valvestate 8100
Randall RG1503
Bugera 333
Peavey Rockmaster preamp

Line6 Pod X3
#34
Quote by Roc8995
I've heard enough people say this that I feel like I'm missing something, but I just don't hear them as similar at all. The Shiva is fairly Marshally, for sure, but beyond that the Shiva is antithetical to the 800: thick, dark, compressed, big low mids and bottom end with a fair amount of sag. 

They are both mid-high gain amps with British voicing, but after that the similarities fall apart IMO. Maybe I just haven't played a good JCM800, but I tend to dislike their sound/feel while I'm a big fan of the Shiva. 


I thought I heard someone else saying it was 800-ish (I thought it was you, actually, I guess I was wrong ). I've never actually tried an 800 for some reason, though i've tried several amps which are meant to be 800-ish (i think ).

But yeah the shiva was sort of mid gain rather than high gain, from what I remember. I don't remember it sounding really anything like the VH4, at any rate.
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#35
Wasn't me! Maybe the problem is that nobody has any idea what a proper JCM800 sounds like. Maybe they don't exist at all. 
#36
Quote by Roc8995
Wasn't me! Maybe the problem is that nobody has any idea what a proper JCM800 sounds like. Maybe they don't exist at all. 


I mean the jcm800 is thin and bright. it sounds like 80s hair metal.

i think jcm800's sound like shit. couldn't pay me to play one.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
Last edited by AcousticMirror at Jun 19, 2017,
#37
It's strange, I'm a big fan of most JCM800-adjacent amps like the SLO and the Silver Jubilee and even the Studio 15, but the actual 800s I got to play never sounded good to me. 

Perhaps some of the issue is that the 800 has to be super loud to sound good (or so I've been told a bunch of times) and those other amps were iterations with competent master volumes. So maybe I just haven't played an 800 loud enough, and I actually do like the sound when it's available at sane volumes. 
#38
Quote by Roc8995
It's strange, I'm a big fan of most JCM800-adjacent amps like the SLO and the Silver Jubilee and even the Studio 15, but the actual 800s I got to play never sounded good to me. 

Perhaps some of the issue is that the 800 has to be super loud to sound good (or so I've been told a bunch of times) and those other amps were iterations with competent master volumes. So maybe I just haven't played an 800 loud enough, and I actually do like the sound when it's available at sane volumes. 


it doesn't have enough preamp gain and the gain that is there is too bright so you need to start distorting the pi and adding some power tube in there to get enough bottom end.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#39
Quote by Roc8995
Wasn't me! Maybe the problem is that nobody has any idea what a proper JCM800 sounds like. Maybe they don't exist at all. 


yeah that's what i'm wondering

seriously, though, every time i was in a shop and saw one there seemed to be something I wanted to try more and never got round to trying one. now i'm wondering what i was thinking
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#40
Quote by kaiburns1
KailM

I'm not really looking into playing brutal metal... I just want to get the tone from the video I linked. I think both a Twin Jet or a Soldano Avenger could easily get a tone like that if you mix the distortion of those amps with a Diezel VH4 pedal and a compressor pedal (for the Avenger). Maybe even a bit of fuzz mixed in too, just to get a little bit of fuzziness to my tone, like Matt Bellamy has with his VH4 rig.

Gotcha, I didn't listen to that Muse clip before I posted.  That's an awesome tone alright -- and you're right in that there's a significant amount of fuzz in there.  I think that makes the amp you choose far less critical.  You'll want to find out what fuzz they use and probably *get an EQ pedal to run in the effects loop* (that phrase will probably be printed on my headstone someday).  I think as long as you get something close like a Twin Jet or Soldano Avenger, get the right fuzz and an EQ pedal, you could probably dial in that exact sound without too much trouble.
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