#1
Controversial topic - has anyone bought a cheap "imitation" xP chuitar from there recently? Thoughts on serviceability? I'm thinking about throwing £120 at China for a scalloped Chingwie Chalmsteen and seeing what I can make of it. I just want a go on scalloped frets and don't mind doing a bit of work on it myself.
#3
Quote by AcousticMirror
Don't talk about fakes and stuff.

I think you'll find it's quite within the rules, before you start throwing stones Anyway, who said anything about fakes? Chingwie Chalmsteen is a highly reputed shredder in the east and his signature guitar is available.
#4
Quote by dragonzrmetal
I think you'll find it's quite within the rules, before you start throwing stones Anyway, who said anything about fakes? Chingwie Chalmsteen is a highly reputed shredder in the east and his signature guitar is available.


Its actually quite against the rules and he can definitely say that because that's what they are.


We don't condone fakes here. Sorry. Maybe ask reddit.
Quote by zgr0826
My culture is worthless and absolutely inferior to the almighty Leaf.


Quote by JustRooster
I incurred the wrath of the Association of White Knights. Specifically the Parent's Basement branch of service.
#5
Quote by H4T3BR33D3R
Its actually quite against the rules and he can definitely say that because that's what they are.


We don't condone fakes here. Sorry. Maybe ask reddit.

Huh, well thanks for the reply. Can I have a link to where it's written if you don't mind? I couldn't and can't find anything stating it.
#6
dragonzrmetal

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Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#7
Actually, its not illegal for China to make these as they have no laws against copyright infringement. It is also legal to buy these fakes from China and ship to the US, as long as it is not RE-sold once in the US.

Just nitpicking. That being said, I wouldn't suggest buying one for ALL KINDS of reasons, moral included.
#8
I'm an IP lawyer: China does have copyright, trademark and patent laws. Some of the strongest in the world, in fact. Thy have also signed on to many international IP treaties.

But they enforce them inequitably and selectively, usually in favor of Chinese companies or nationals, unless it suits their purposes to do otherwise- such as in Pres. Trump's IP lawsuit in China.

So, still illegal, even if Chinese officials are turning a blind eye.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#9
Quote by dannyalcatraz
I'm an IP lawyer: China does have copyright, trademark and patent laws.  Some of the strongest in the world, in fact.  Thy have also signed on to many international IP treaties.

But they enforce them inequitably and selectively, usually in favor of Chinese companies or nationals, unless it suits their purposes to do otherwise- such as in Pres. Trump's IP lawsuit in China.

So, still illegal, even if Chinese officials are turning a blind eye.

Well then ... I guess I can go home early from work ... I learned my one thing new today.   

I was actually just reading something (non-reputable source) that stated that China didn't have these laws.  We were discussing fake Vandenberg's. It's been a while since my International Law courses, I don't remember this, but I have no reason to doubt you.  Thanks for correcting me.  
Last edited by Xander_X at Jul 17, 2017,
#10
Quote by dannyalcatraz
I'm an IP lawyer: China does have copyright, trademark and patent laws. Some of the strongest in the world, in fact. Thy have also signed on to many international IP treaties.

But they enforce them inequitably and selectively, usually in favor of Chinese companies or nationals, unless it suits their purposes to do otherwise- such as in Pres. Trump's IP lawsuit in China.

So, still illegal, even if Chinese officials are turning a blind eye.


Yup
Quote by zgr0826
My culture is worthless and absolutely inferior to the almighty Leaf.


Quote by JustRooster
I incurred the wrath of the Association of White Knights. Specifically the Parent's Basement branch of service.
#11
Mark this day in history: today, someone got corrected on the Internet, and was gracious about it!

No big deal- it's a common misconception, and China is so notorious for IP infringement- especially against foreigners- that it might as well be true. Hell, one of the few recent cases where China actually enforced their own laws was years ago when some Chinese infringers got busted because they were driving Chinese inventors out of business.

But big & little Western companies don't fare as well, unless they have pull with China's national gov't. E.G. Trump's trademak case.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#12
Quote by dannyalcatraz
Mark this day in history: today, someone got corrected on the Internet, and was gracious about it!

I never have an issue admitting when I'm wrong and always appreciate learning from my mistakes, and constructive criticism.  It's one of the most universal ways to learn anything in this world.  Just as long as the person correcting me is polite about it ..... 
#13
There's definitely copyright protection but the laws aren't enforced the same way they are here.
That being said, if you just want to grab a strat shape with scalloped frets from china for cheap that's pretty ok. It's going to be terrible but whatever.
If they actually use the headstock and logo then it's illegal.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#14
Quote by AcousticMirror
There's definitely copyright protection but the laws aren't enforced the same way they are here.
That being said, if you just want to grab a strat shape with scalloped frets from china for cheap that's pretty ok. It's going to be terrible but whatever.
If they actually use the headstock and logo then it's illegal.


"that would be okay, but they're shit guitars that you'll likely have to put more than double the initial cost of the guitar to get going if you're lucky in which case you probably could've just got an MIM with the cash you've spent" isn't what I would call pretty okay for a purchase but hey, whatever floats your boat.
Quote by zgr0826
My culture is worthless and absolutely inferior to the almighty Leaf.


Quote by JustRooster
I incurred the wrath of the Association of White Knights. Specifically the Parent's Basement branch of service.
#15
Quote by Xander_X
I never have an issue admitting when I'm wrong and always appreciate learning from my mistakes, and constructive criticism.  It's one of the most universal ways to learn anything in this world.  Just as long as the person correcting me is polite about it ..... 

Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#16
As far as cheap Chinese copies are concerned I've seen some really decent examples for next to nothing and also others that would be better suited as fire wood. I think you really have to go in expecting it to be trash and be surprised rather than expect it to be at least serviceable and be disappointed. If £120 is something you are willing to throw at a project then why not? Ends up being similarly priced to a beginner guitar and if you intend to fix/modify it it's no real loss. Review will be needed if you do get it though.
#17
brother just came back after 12 years of working in China. they do indeed have laws over there and they are enforced when it suites them. it has gotten more difficult over there in the last couple of years to bootleg items etc as US and European companies have put up such a stink. China doesn't want anyone pulling out there production as that would kill their economy. 

as a side not but pertinent. even the people in China know better than to buy those guitars. 
#18
I think you would be better off with a Squier Bullet than taking a chance at Alibaba. Besides the legal reasons, getting a dodgy knock off from an unknown producer seems insane. There's no benefit. Cheap, unknown, illegitimate, and likely no solid recourse. Why would you want to do that?
Guitar/Bass:
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Quote by dannyalcatraz
Understood- I waste money on amps*, too.
#19
China has traditionally NOT had these laws, however -- it's only been trade agreements that have broached the topic and forced the chinese government to enact them after treaties were signed. Nixon opened trade with the west in the early '70's and most IP agreements were practiced mostly in the breach for decades after. In the west, IP was a construct necessary for the Industrial Revolution to flourish. It's not some kind of inalienable "right" -- it's a temporary monopoly developed to make it worthwhile for inventors to market their ideas.
#20
dspellman 

I'm not sure how many countries have "first registration" trademark laws similar to China, but Colombia is one. - I have a nice leather hat labelled "Reebok". As you say, it isn't some kind of inalienable right. Have China actually changed their laws, or is the more common "international registration" standard simply (somewhat) enforced by trade agreements?
Last edited by Tony Done at Jul 17, 2017,
#21
Basically, China started adopting IP laws in the 1970s in order to pair their artificially cheap labor with Western corporate powerhouses seeking places to manufacture their goods. You wanna play with the big boys, you have to play by their rules. But they have always warped those rules as much as they could. China is kind of like an abusive boyfriend to Western industry: they keep breaking IP laws and harming the companies that do business there, but not enough that the companies actually leave. "The labor is soooo cheap, and maybe the violations will stop. They're not as bad as they used to be, after all..." they say. And China, in its dragon-brocade pimp suit, says, "Yeah, baby. You know I love you, right?"

The unintended side-effect (to the political West) of getting all those cheap goods is that the Chinese economy has boomed and that prosperity has propped up their govenrment. It's a communist economics house of cards, just like Russia was, but with a better built base.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#23
Quote by dannyalcatraz
Basically, China started adopting IP laws in the 1970s in order to pair their artificially cheap labor with Western corporate powerhouses seeking places to manufacture their goods.  You wanna play with the big boys, you have to play by their rules.  But they have always warped those rules as much as they could.  China is kind of like an abusive boyfriend to Western industry: they keep breaking IP laws and harming the companies that do business there, but not enough that the companies actually leave.  "The labor is soooo cheap, and maybe the violations will stop.  They're not as bad as they used to be, after all..." they say.  And China, in its dragon-brocade pimp suit, says, "Yeah, baby.  You know I love you, right?"

The unintended side-effect (to the political West) of getting all those cheap goods is that the Chinese economy has boomed and that prosperity has propped up their govenrment.  It's a communist economics house of cards, just like Russia was, but with a better built base.

china is finding themselves in the same boat japan did in the 80s. labour is't as cheap as it used to be and the people actually want to benifit from their labor. they also want all the goodies they make for us. other places are competing to be cheaper labor wise. unlike japan they still have a rep for less than great quality. looks like that may bite them in the ass. 
#24
monwobobbo 

A few countries are snapping at China's heels - Vietnam, India, Indonesia are some I can think of - and I think they will get the QC issue sorted just the same as China has. A friend of mine is a cabinet maker, and he used to go to China to check the QC in the factories that were making goods for his company. His view was that they were very good at biulding to a spec, but the spec had to be well-defined and comprehensive. He also noted that the average Chinese worker wouldn't strain himself, so while labour costs were low, they used somewhat more of it than a comparable Western factory would. I think the other rising industrial nations will go the same way, but IMO China has a social-psychological advantage in the form of a history of Confucianism. 
#25
It's worse than that...

I've mentioned here and elsewhere that in 2012 or so, a company introduced a robot prototype that- depending on which hardware & software modules you equipped it with, could be used to perform 200 different common tasks. And it did so for an initial nvestment and upkeep cost over a standard 5 year depereciation cycle approximately equal to the cost of employing an Indonesian factory laborer. Doubtless, they're not alone in going down that path, and the designs will only have gotten better. And cheaper.

That means outsourced, offshore labor prices will be coming to all markets in the next 20+, which will wreck economies worldwide. Even China will struggle, because it's main economic advantage will be nullified.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#26
Quote by Tony Done
monwobobbo

A few countries are snapping at China's heels - Vietnam, India, Indonesia are some I can think of - and I think they will get the QC issue sorted just the same as China has. A friend of mine is a cabinet maker, and he used to go to China to check the QC in the factories that were making goods for his company. His view was that they were very good at biulding to a spec, but the spec had to be well-defined and comprehensive. He also noted that the average Chinese worker wouldn't strain himself, so while labour costs were low, they used somewhat more of it than a comparable Western factory would. I think the other rising industrial nations will go the same way, but IMO China has a social-psychological advantage in the form of a history of Confucianism. 

china has a major disadvantage as they are a communist state and corruption runs rampant there. they just don't get the western style of business . the goverment often insists that companies doing business over there give them much of the technology which has caused some to bail as they had no intention of doing that. part of the chinese culture leads them to believe they are better than everyone else. (and yes the US is like that for different reasons). this doesn't often work well when trying to do business with other countries. 
#28
Quote by Tony Done
monwobobbo 

I think that corruption might be worse in some of those other countries, and they don't have the organisational foundations of Confucianism. - Which could be the reason the communism works, more or less, in China.


Russia is much worse...and ironically, their next-door neighbor Finland is routinely ranked as one of the least corrupt nations on earth,

Still, even China's version of Communism will fail under the weight of economic inefficiencies, and the accrued effects of corner-cutting, oppression and corruption.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#29
Quote by Tony Done
dspellman 

I'm not sure how many countries have "first registration" trademark laws similar to China, but Colombia is one. - I have a nice leather hat labelled "Reebok". As you say, it isn't some kind of inalienable right. Have China actually changed their laws, or is the more common "international registration" standard simply (somewhat) enforced by trade agreements?


You'd have to ask an IP loy-yuh about this, but I'm not at all sure that all trademark/copyright/patent laws match up universally. Last I checked they didn't, necessarily, and that treaties and trade agreements are responsible for any uniformity that does exist.

Part of the reason for this is that they...uh..."evolve" based on what entity has the most money. For example, copyright in the US has been screwed up beyond belief by Disney wanting a huge extension to the term of copyright so that they wouldn't lose protection for Mickey Mouse. Seriously, they paid a lot of legislators a lot of money to change the law. And now there are issues with "orphan works" and reasonable use, etc. As always, what was good for the deep pockets bunch doesn't necessarily work all that well for everyone else. So some countries have different limits and laws.
Last edited by dspellman at Jul 17, 2017,
#30
Quote by monwobobbo
brother just came back after 12 years of working in China. they do indeed have laws over there and they are enforced when it suites them. it has gotten more difficult over there in the last couple of years to bootleg items etc as US and European companies have put up such a stink. China doesn't want anyone pulling out there production as that would kill their economy. 

as a side not but pertinent. even the people in China know better than to buy those guitars. 


They definitely have rules for their own and for others. Look at what they do to people who use/deal drugs in China then look at where most of the chemicals used worldwide in the making of narcotics. 
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