#1
Hi fellow guitarists,

I am in the market for a new acoustic guitar to play mostly fingerstyle, folk and a lot of open tunings. I mostly play the classical guitar and I don't like steel-string acoustic guitars that sound really thin and tinny. I like warm-sounding guitars and woods.

I think the Taylor 12E fits the bill: love the armrest, free gig bag and the Taylor quality. It retails for $649 and before I actually buy it, I would like to know if you guys think there are any better guitars out there for that price cause that's a lot of money . My budget is around the $600 mark.

Thanks!
#2
I preach the benefits of Seagull guitars all the time. I'm of the belief that for less money, you'd be getting a better quality guitar than the Taylor (just my opinion, though). One advantage it would have over the Taylor would by a wider neck that might be a better transition for you from the classical guitar, as well as provide you more room for your fingerstyle work. Most Taylor guitars have a standard 1 11/16" neck on them, whereas most Seagulls in your price range would have a ~1 13/16" neck on them.

Check out some of their Coastline series guitars for something that will give you an amazing quality instrument for less. If possible I'd at least say find one and try it out, you may be surprised. 
#3
I like Taylors because of the way they are built, with a shim-adjustable bolt-on neck, and that puts them top of my "possibles" list in that price range. Tone is a personal thing, and the wider neck on something like a Seagull, as noted by St_Lively418  might be an advantage.
#4
Quote by St_Lively418
I preach the benefits of Seagull guitars all the time. I'm of the belief that for less money, you'd be getting a better quality guitar than the Taylor (just my opinion, though). One advantage it would have over the Taylor would by a wider neck that might be a better transition for you from the classical guitar, as well as provide you more room for your fingerstyle work. Most Taylor guitars have a standard 1 11/16" neck on them, whereas most Seagulls in your price range would have a ~1 13/16" neck on them.

Check out some of their Coastline series guitars for something that will give you an amazing quality instrument for less. If possible I'd at least say find one and try it out, you may be surprised. 

Thanks for the note on the neck size and your advice. I didn't think of the neck size. I don't really have an issue with a smaller neck as I also play a strat-like electric guitar but I can see how a wider neck would be beneficial for my style. I tried a few acoustic guitars at Guitar Center sometime back and all of them sounded a bit tinny and cold to me. I think it's because I haven't played an acoustic guitar in ages and I'm so used to the classical guitar sound.
Quote by Tony Done
I like Taylors because of the way they are built, with a shim-adjustable bolt-on neck, and that puts them top of my "possibles" list in that price range. Tone is a personal thing, and the wider neck on something like a Seagull, as noted by St_Lively418  might be an advantage.

Thanks, man.
#5
To make a broad statement, I consider Seagulls to have warmer tone than Taylors. I own both, each with cedar tops and mahogany back/sides.
#6
Thanks. I'd appreciate if you guys have any other suggestions for me. I'm heading to a Guitar Center this week.

So far, here's my list:

1. Taylor 12E
2. Seagull S6 (any other Seagull's I should look at?)
3. Taylor GS Mini
#7
If you get the chance, try the mahogany-topped version of the GS mini. I tried it side-by-side with the spruce topped version and preferred its slightly mellower tone. Both versions were popular in my mates shop. I haven't tried an S6 for many years, but it had a good reputation back then. It came in spruce and cedar versions, and I preferred the spruce, again in a side-by-side comparison.
#8
For Seagull:

The S6 is definitely their flagship and what they're known for. I prefer the Spruce top model over the Cedar top model, myself. If they have any available I'd give the Natural Elements series a shot as well. They come with a cutaway and electronics, and from my recollection are quite nice sounding for the money. 
#9
I would go with the Taylor. Not only are they well made, but their customer service is also the best around.
#10
Quote by matharp
Thanks. I'd appreciate if you guys have any other suggestions for me. I'm heading to a Guitar Center this week.

So far, here's my list:

1. Taylor 12E
2. Seagull S6 (any other Seagull's I should look at?)
3. Taylor GS Mini

I would suggest you get the Seagull S6.  The thicker woods and more traditional design of the S6 provides warmer tone than you would get from a similar Taylor and a much warmer tone than the taylor guitars you are considering.  Quality of construction and materials is just as good from seagull as it is in comparable Taylors.  The neck is bolt on with a butt joint which means it's actually just as easy to reset as the Taylor in the unlikely event that you would need to change the neck angle.

The 2 Taylors you are looking at are small body guitars and small body guitars don't sound as warm as dreads.
Not taking any online orders.
#11
CorduroyEW 

Are you sure that the new Seagulls bolt-on necks? I gave up making strong recommendations for them because I have read that they have gone to an epoxied neck joint, which, IMO, is awful. Here's an example:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=221760927884852&id=211880935539518
Last edited by Tony Done at Sep 25, 2017,
#12
Tony Done Seagull isn't a common brand in the in the UK so they don't come walking into my shop that often.  I've never seen an epoxy neck joint on a seagull but it is possible that I've never worked on a newer one.  I've sent seagull an email asking about it so I'll let you know what they say if they respond.
Not taking any online orders.
#13
CorduroyEW 

They're fairly common here in Oz, my mate used to stock them in his shop, but I haven't looked at one in a long time. IIRC, they had a bolt-on heel and glued fretboard extension. My mate isn't a high level repairer, but I know he did at least one reset on them.
#14
Tony DoneCorduroyEW Well, here's the Seagull "features page". It says "there is no glue between the neck and body, but stops short of saying exactly the neck is attached. The small pictures appear to show bolt holes. I'm wondering if this is simply a defensive posture, since manufactures who use glue on necks, would obviously claim bolt ons were inferior.

Is this an old page? Have their specs changed? I don't know, but what it does look like, is fuel for the fires of continued debate, Enjoy kidz!

http://www.seagullguitars.com/en/features
#15
Captaincranky 

Dunno. I'm sure I've read somewhere in their blurb froma  few years back that they use an epoxy joint to reduce the risk of changing geometry, and reduce the possibility of a neck reset. - Which sounds dodgy to me anyway, as deteriorating geometry is due to changes in the top, not the neck joint. Maybe they've gone back to bolt-on?
#16
Tony Done As far as a man named John B. Watson, who is considered the "father of modern psychology" was concerned, there's way more money in advertising. So, he left the field to do that. The only conclusion that I can possibly draw is, "propaganda is a lucrative business".

Let's have some off topic fun. You study this commercial for a drug named "Rexulti", and then tell me how many advertising and propaganda techniques you find in play. If you think Godin is full of shit, wait until you see the scope of this "turd": (And it's a turd that gets dropped on largely unsuspecting audiences, at least every hour on the hour. (BTW, "repetition" in one of the most effective propaganda techniques of all).



The moral of the story is, you could stick guitar necks on with chewing gum, and your promotional department could find a way to make spent chewing gum, "the best way to install a guitar neck ever devised". .
Last edited by Captaincranky at Sep 25, 2017,
#17
Captaincranky 

First off, I thought is was a spoof, but evidently it is real. Almost half of it is taken up with disclaimers about possible adverse side effects of the most gruesome kind, spoken in smooth tones with soothing music that tell your subconscious that everything is wonderful regardless. At least they were up-front, not like a lot of ads where they are in the fine print that I can barely read. One I saw recently was the opening episode of the Oz version of "Hell's kitchen", it came and went so fast in the opening credits that I missed most of it, but it started with "This is not a documentary....", and then something about "dramatisation". We also get a lot of "buy one get one [or several] free, just pay an extra $500 P&H". Why would I want four $12 floor sweepers or pruning sheers for $50? Plus a lot of P&H, of course.
#18
Tony Done Well they gotcha.

1: The central character, (white woman at the beginning), for all intents and purposes, has a face the likes of a basset hound. She could barely look "happy" on a good day

2: The reason they have so much time to "give a lengthy, leisurely roll, on the side effects", is because they can't even make a forthright claim that the drug actually works. Every statement they make about the drug's efficacy, is a conditional.. "It might help", it could help", it may help", and only then if you're already taking another anti-depressant!

3:All of the inside shots are done in gray rooms, with maybe a little bit of blue. The color balance of the light is cold, (toward blue), and low in contrast. Very depressing.

4: Bandwagon propaganda: "Look everybody's taking this. Men women, blacks, whites, I even think there an Asian woman in the commercial So you get, inclusivity and diversity, under the bandwagon umbrella.

4: When they go outside, the lighting balance goes to a sunny yellow, and even the basset hound lady is pretending to be able to smile effectively.

Basically, we just made the trip from inside the cold, dark , recesses of our mind, to the bright light of happiness. And all without ever saying the drug actually works.

But the back story is even more repugnant. "Rexulti" is "brexpiprasol", which is the successor to "aripiprasol", or a drug marketed under the trade name, "Abilify". The patent ran out on Aripiprasol in 2015, and it's now available as a generic. So, they moved a molecule or 2 around, and now they've got 17 more years of ramming this crap down our throats, for however much they can bilk the health insurance companies for it. It's back under the price protection of a proprietary patent..

I think if you tried to play along with the music, you'd find the music mostly minor and major 7th. I'm not even sure they resolve to a true major triad at the end. If that's the case, I guess the music won't resolve to a tonic major, until your doctor writes you a prescription for this poison.

BTW, my medical doctor told me that "Abilify" was pure garbage, and at least $500.00 a month.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Sep 25, 2017,
#20
Quote by Tony Done
Captaincranky 

OK, you got a lot more of it than me, but you don't need the subtle bits I missed to recognise it as bad.
Well it far exceeds the scope of mere "bad",and ventures well into the realm of fraudulent and Machiavellian.

I'm thinking they're trying to convince everyone they're depressed, and if you listen to that shit storm long enough you probably will be.. I try and hit the mute button on the remote as soon as it comes on, and it still pisses me off.
#22
Tony Done Between the mass hypochondria of the American public, and a very powerful block of lobbyists from big pharma, you're bound to get crap like this rammed down your throat on an hourly basis.

Network TV was forced to stop accepting ads from cigarette manufacturers, so alcohol and drugs ads were taken in to make up for the loss of revenue.

Big pharma always falls back to the position "drug prices are high because we have to expend so much money in R & D". In the case of "Rexulti", one has o question how much R & D had to be done to move a molecule, and release another drug in the same family for monetary gain.

We have an "opioid crisis in this country", and doctors are being blamed for it. So now, it's cheaper to buy heroin than prescription pain killers. Well, if big pharma wasn't raking in tons of money on their overpriced opiates, why would addicts need to buy street drugs?

Anyway, the politicians are blaming doctors for the problem. IMHO, that's because "the war on drugs" has been an abject, abysmal, failure.. and they have to get re-elected somehow.

My own doctor, seems to have accepted that, and is penitent. However, none of that explains the issue of crack cocaine. After all, doctors weren't writing prescriptions for that. Has that problem gone away? I don't think so.

Our leaders point to other governments pervasive corruption. I think that's a smokescreen, and our government is every bit as corrupt, there's just a touch more subtlety involved.

So, Trump want's to get rid of "Obama Care", which would cause many people to lose health insurance. Ye never is there a mention made about reining the cost of medical workers wages, hospital charges, nor medicines. Those all sem to stay the same, or be rising.

"Rexulti" is the tip of that posterior spear for the uninformed and self pitying. I'm not even sure they're trying to make money with it. It looks like a huge tax write off for "R & D, plus advertising expenses.

To return this to a musical thread here's Jackson Browne & David Lindley delivering an overview of these issues more poetically than I can:

Last edited by Captaincranky at Sep 25, 2017,
#24
Quote by Tony Done
Captaincranky 

I'm surprised that the mods haven't complained at us by now. We also have a problem with prescription drugs, but at least the strong non-prescription analgesics have been moved behind the counter.

However off topic we my be, at least the thread is still active, and we are, after all, waiting for CorduroyEW, to get back to us with the response from Seagull as to their neck attachment method..

George Bush opened the flood gates of heroin to this country by invading Afghanistan. Papavera somniferum is the only cash crop in that entire shithole.

40 years ago "Afghani Hash" was the best you could get. I doubt anyone realized the black coating was most likely black gum opium.

At this point, it would actually be futile to legalize recreational use of marijuana or opium derivatives. Between the government's taxes, and the outrageous prices the producers would charge for them, it would still be cheaper to buy them on the street.

Not to mention that it would deprive politician's of a "cause" to get themselves re-elected with.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Sep 25, 2017,
#26
Tony Done Not to mention we had to make friends with the warlords who grew the poppies, so they would help us fight the Taliban.

Who knew, “The enemy of my enemy is my friend”, would result in soldiers having to march through human cesspools.
#27
Captaincranky Tony Done   I just checked my email from seagull and it said the neck joint has switched from bolt on to glued then back to bolt on and back to glue again.  Their current guitars are set neck with glue, not epoxy.

TS  That means my point about the neck joint was wrong but it's still highly unlikely that a neck reset will ever be needed and if it is needed seagull will cover it with the warranty as long as you are the original owner of the guitar.  I still recommend the S6 dread over a small body Taylor because the full size body is going to have a bigger, warmer tone.
Not taking any online orders.
#29
Quote by CorduroyEW
  I just checked my email from seagull and it said the neck joint has switched from bolt on to glued then back to bolt on and back to glue again.  Their current guitars are set neck with glue, not epoxy.
No it doesn't mean you were "wrong", per se, it just means your timing was off. The knowledge of what type neck joint to look for, should prove a boon to used S-6 buyers.

In fairness though, I don't think Godin ever took to the Taylor ad hype, "look kidz, we give you wedgies for our guitar necks". At least the fact that their necks were, "easily resettable ", never featured prominently in their advertising.

Quote by CorduroyEW
TS  That means my point about the neck joint was wrong but it's still highly unlikely that a neck reset will ever be needed and if it is needed seagull will cover it with the warranty as long as you are the original owner of the guitar.  I still recommend the S6 dread over a small body Taylor because the full size body is going to have a bigger, warmer tone.
I'm pretty sure I'd rather have a full size Seagull S-6, than a miniature Taylor, hands down .
Last edited by Captaincranky at Sep 26, 2017,
#30
Captaincranky 

Dates or serial numbers would be useful, but at least forewarned is forearmed. 

As you know I'm a bit (?) OCD about neck joints. - The bolt-on neck was a big factor in my choice of Bourgeois for my "best" guitar. A few of the boutique makers use bolt-on, eg Collings, for anyone interested in that end of the market.
#31
Quote by Tony Done
....[ ]....As you know I'm a bit (?) OCD about neck joints. -
I do indeed. In fact, much in the same way I can be, "a bit sarcastic"...
#32
Hey guys,

Thank you for your advice! Went to the Guitar Center in Brooklyn (great staff), and bought a Seagull S6 Original Dreadnought! The guitar sounded better than the Taylor GS Mini and to be honest it sounded better than all other guitars I tried; even some high-end Taylors.

I liked how Seagull ties a little piece of paper to the head of the guitar (if its in the box) with the hand-written initials of all the people who quality checked it.

Also, what's the best way to remove the pickguard on the guitar without damaging it?
Last edited by matharp at Sep 28, 2017,
#33
Use a blow dryer to soften the adhesive and carefully lift the edge of the guard with a razor blade or a hobby (exacto) knife.  Once you get the edge up it should peel off but you might need to use something like a frosting knife or a spatula to pry it away from the body if it is being particularly stubborn.  When you heat the pickguard be careful not to scorch the finish.  Be aware that there is a small chance that you will still be able to see where the pickguard was because the guitar top changes colour under the pickguard slower than it does where the wood is exposed to the light.  Your guitar is so it's unlikely to have aged enough to make this an issue but you should be aware of the possibility.
Not taking any online orders.
#35
Quote by Captaincranky
No it doesn't mean you were "wrong", per se, it just means your timing was off. The knowledge of what type neck joint to look for, should prove a boon to used S-6 buyers.

In fairness though, I don't think Godin  ever took to the Taylor ad hype, "look kidz, we give you wedgies for our guitar necks". At least the fact that their necks were, "easily resettable ", never featured prominently in their advertising.

I'm pretty sure I'd rather have a full size Seagull S-6, than a miniature Taylor, hands down .

No doubt. Taylor makes nice guitars no doubt but dollar for dollar, I think you are much better off with a Seagull.