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#42
www.dcj20

So you're saying that the Foo Fighters and Kings of Leon don't sound like blues? Maybe it's because they aren't blues. But it's like do really think that there are no more blues guitar players any more? Gary Clark Jr is probably the best known contemporary blues guitarist but a quick look at the blues charts and blues blogs (rather than a thread complaining about modern music) would show you that there are a ton of modern blues musicians that are worth listening to and, dare I say, better than a lot of the classics (modern music doesn't get that extra D20 for having the "classic" gimmick).
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#43
Quote by ExDementia
After thousands of years of mankind's history, it seems like a bit of a coincidence that his hayday just so happened to be the pinnacle of music, doesn't it?

Yes.  Obviously he's wrong.  The pinnacle of the history of music was actually in my heyday.
#44
Quote by theogonia777
www.dcj20

So you're saying that the Foo Fighters and Kings of Leon don't sound like blues?  Maybe it's because they aren't blues.  But it's like do really think that there are no more blues guitar players any more?  Gary Clark Jr is probably the best known contemporary blues guitarist but a quick look at the blues charts and blues blogs (rather than a thread complaining about modern music) would show you that there are a ton of modern blues musicians that are worth listening to and, dare I say, better than a lot of the classics (modern music doesn't get that extra D20 for having the "classic" gimmick).

I'm of the opinion that blues died in the early-mid 1960s.  It's been a corpse on a life-support system ever since.  (It was doomed once white kids got hold of it in the 1950s, and decided the early (outdated) styles were best.)

Obviously I love doing my part in making those old bones jump around a bit , but it hasn't been a living genre ever since African-Americans en masse decided they preferred gospel, soul and funk.  And then hip-hop and rap, of course.

Just my jaded, cynical $0.02...   (Classical music and bebop are even more dead, of course.  Doesn't mean I think people should stop playing them or listening to them.)
Last edited by jonriley64 at Sep 30, 2017,
#45
Quote by jonriley64
....[ ]....Obviously I love doing my part in making those old bones jump around a bit , but it hasn't been a living genre ever since African-Americans en masse decided they preferred gospel, soul and funk.  And then hip-hop and rap, of course....[ ]....
Have you considered African Americans abandoned the blues "en masse", simply because they're nowhere nearly as bad off as they were in its heyday.

Look, the blues was born a long time before social entitlements came into vogue.
#46
There are things that are better and things that are worse statistically. Let's not get into politics.
#47
NeoMvsEu Well AFAIK, the blues real heyday was around the time of the "Great Depression", (and before?). Said US economic collapse caused wall streeters to, "leap tall buildings in a single bound". Pity they couldn't fly though. Blacks just sang their way through it, much to their credit.

In a roundabout way, politics actually caused the blues.

Rap and hip-hop, in many ways, mimic the blues contextually, in that a lot of it talks about, "da blok", and close personal relationships. It basically "stays in the hood", so to speak, unlike many rock genres which tackle larger concerns, mythology, and the like.
#49
Quote by www.dcj20
jerrykramskoy do u think we have hit a crossroads on the musical front, like old school lots of it based around country/blues kinda beats and feel even the chord progressions right ? all of that is earthy and wholesome and I don't see it anymore really, a few bands jump out to mind like two gallants and a few others but mainstream nah ?


Tricky question, as I haven't listened to lots of th enew rock bands. I do find some of the newer big names kind of unadventurous, and lacking the agression and feeling of the bands from the 70's-80's.  So much depends on genre as well.  These days I listen to pretty much everything and anything ...I'll give it a chance and back away if needed.  There's ideas to be had from everywhere.
#50
Quote by Captaincranky
NeoMvsEu Well AFAIK, the blues real heyday was around the time of the "Great Depression", (and before?). Said US economic collapse caused wall streeters to, "leap tall buildings in a single bound". Pity they couldn't fly though. Blacks just sang their way through it, much to their credit


Blues as popular music gained steam in the 50s and 60s, mostly because "popular" back then meant "what white teenagers like". Even greats like Chuck Berry were a bit of a sideshow until the likes of The Rolling Stones started using overt blues influences. There's even a story about the Stones meeting their hero Muddy Waters at a recording studio on an early US tour, and they were quite surprised to find legendary Muddy painting the studio walls for extra cash. His music was apparently not commercially successful until after popular bluesy rock musicians started talking about him, which was of course late in his career.

It's a fairly sad story, how many African American geniuses went unrecognized on their merits and didn't become known until more appreciative and commercially popular white artists started bringing the influence into their own music.
#51
Blues as an art form did coalesce during the "Great Depression". Keith Richards and Mick Jagger are both my seniors, but of course, not as much, "my seniors", as I'd like them to be

Quote by cdgraves
Blues as popular music gained steam in the 50s and 60s, mostly because "popular" back then meant "what white teenagers like". Even greats like Chuck Berry were a bit of a sideshow until the likes of The Rolling Stones started using overt blues influences. There's even a story about the Stones meeting their hero Muddy Waters at a recording studio on an early US tour, and they were quite surprised to find legendary Muddy painting the studio walls for extra cash. His music was apparently not commercially successful until after popular bluesy rock musicians started talking about him, which was of course late in his career.
The story is actually a bit more complex, and maybe even a bit sadder as well. Black musicians of the 50's and early 60's had to pretend to be white and IIRC, had to downplay it to the point of not having their pictures on their album covers. (Citation needed). In any case, these were in reality acapella groups, with backup bands.I guess today'y colloquial term would be, "black boy bands".

But the primary influence , at least in the "top 40" sector, was Latin music. The Drifters, "Under the Boardwalk", and Ben E. King's"Sand by Me", are both Calypso, plain and simple. Neither track is out of the ordinary for the period. In fact, I think you needed to know Calypso dance styles to gain admission to those teen Friday and Saturday night dances
Quote by cdgraves
It's a fairly sad story, how many African American geniuses went unrecognized on their merits and didn't become known until more appreciative and commercially popular white artists started bringing the influence into their own music.
Sadly the music business, at least the recorded sector , then as today, runs on the backs of the musicians, not necessarily in their favor.

What is truly sad, is that Jimmy Page never paid black blues musicians even a tenth of the royalties he owes them.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Oct 2, 2017,
#54
cdgraves Aged 12 (?) I  saw Howling Wolf playing at a pub in a London suburb called Southall ... predominantly Asian community.  I was one of a very few white people there ...actually mainly Jamaiican at that gig ... a bit dangerous!   I'd snuck out for the night, didn't enjoy the gig, got caught sneaking back in my home around midnight, and got grounded for 3 months. Preferred rock after that:-)
#55
Tony Done Too late! I'm the charter member of my own Zep Un-Fan club, must be pushing nigh on 50 years now. As soon as Page puts down the 12 string, I pretty much lose all interest.

The civil rights movement was an utter failure a making me ashamed of being white.

Therefore, it is with great regret I feel I must inform you, I like symphonic metal way better than raw blues, which I just barely tolerate better than rap.

This is the problem with being an amateur sociopath. I don't care about the problems of others in real time, let alone wanting to have the woes of others sung to me, especially those of long dead black men..
Last edited by Captaincranky at Oct 3, 2017,
#57
i feel like i'm watching the reunion of a bunch of people who took nutmeg together in a tent at burning man in the 70s
modes are a social construct
#59
Quote by Hail
joe walsh called stevie wonder an "ungrateful black multi millionaire"

fuck that talentless dipshit


was Joe Walsh the coach or the quarterback of the 49ers?
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#60
the blues is anywhere that people got strife and woes a Sturm und Drang

some of it you might say is not blues music and you might be right but it's all the blues





There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#62
Quote by theogonia777
the blues is anywhere that people got strife and woes a Sturm und Drang

some of it you might say is not blues music and you might be right but it's all the blues....[ ]....
Not really. When you play the country song backwards, you get your wife, your job, and your house back. Your dog is still alive, and the scratches Carrie Underwood put down the down the sides of the pickup at the bar last Saturday night, are all gone.

When you play the true Negro blues backwards, the cross is still burning in front of your shack, and the police Sargent's wife is still accusing you of knocking her up.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Oct 3, 2017,
#63
Captaincranky

But wouldn't lighting a cross and fire and accusing someone of knocking you up in reverse be putting our the fire and withdrawing the accusation?
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#64
Quote by theogonia777
Captaincranky

But wouldn't lighting a cross and fire and accusing someone of knocking you up in reverse be putting our the fire and withdrawing the accusation?
Surely young lady, you've known withdrawing doesn't work since you were 12 or 13..
#65
Quote by theogonia777
Captaincranky

But wouldn't lighting a cross and fire and accusing someone of knocking you up in reverse be putting our the fire and withdrawing the accusation?

Considering the 350+ year history of slavery and legal oppression in North Americs, the situation really doesn't improve in reverse.
#66
Quote by cdgraves
Considering the 350+ year history of slavery and legal oppression in North Americs, the situation really doesn't improve in reverse.
To the upside, we have mixed race relatives of Thomas Jefferson popping up all the time. Somebody's got to supply fodder for the scandal rags, Who better to do it?
#68
Quote by cdgraves
Considering the 350+ year history of slavery and legal oppression in North Americs, the situation really doesn't improve in reverse.


And? What, are white people aren't allowed to have the blues because most of them weren't systematically oppressed in modern times the way blacks are in America?

Quote by NeoMvsEu
enough of the off-topicness


Why do you always want to just go and ruin perfectly good discussions like that?
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#69
Quote by NeoMvsEu
enough of the off-topicness
Then lead by example., bring us back from iniquity with some topical content.

Here's some to get you started; rock certainly isn't drawn from the blues. A glaring example would be "Tommy" by the Who. Townshend's influences are British ceremonial anthems, military marches, and British folk music. None of which, I'm sure, have some 105 year old black man from the deep US South, bemoaning what he, "coullda" "woulda", "shoulda", been paid, if Pete hadn't stolen his music.
Last edited by Captaincranky at Oct 3, 2017,
#71
the blues is anywhere that people got strife and woes a Sturm und Drang

some of it you might say is not blues music and you might be right but it's all the blues

I agree. I always associate the blues with lead guitar, vocal like lead work, tasteful bends, the old 2 hi string strum bend which i assume is kindof a turnaround, and maybe even a mournful quality that stands out, but i'm an amateur so will leave it there.
#72
www.dcj20

There doesn't have to be guitar. You look at people like Hank, Veysal, Billie Holiday, Rezső Seress, etc and what they went through in life with all kinds of problems. When you listen to their music, you hear it.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#74
Rock comes from country which comes from Celtic folk, jazz, blues, and Hawaiian music. Well also from rockabilly and RnB.
There's no such thing; there never was. Where I am going you cannot follow me now.
#75
Tony Done Let me rephrase. The "rock" which I like, really isn't heavily blues bases. I'm not about to sit through a Joe Bonamassa, regardless of his technical proficiency. And if you;ve never sat through a "Ten Years After" concert, consider yourself fortunate. Many of the rock bands based in true blues, (Save Zep, & IIRC), died out fairly quickly.

Actual "white boy blues", isn't all that recognizable as true blues. The Beatles', "Day Tripper", is form perfect 12 bar blues. Well, until the chorus, when it morphs into a march. Yet, it really sounds more "pop" than blues.

As I said of Townshend, while the Who actually did perform songs with "Blues", in the titles, Townshend's primary influences, if anything, are exactly what I've claimed they are.

I'm not at all ashamed of really, really enjoying bombastic anthems, dirges, and marches. I think I have some blood of the "super race" in me.

Even in the "prog rock era", some the bands I followed wended their way to country radio stations, The Eagles being most the notable. And the Eagles from time to time, stole a mariachi lick or five.

Back to my avoidance of the blues, "Mountain", with Leslie West, was heavily influenced by the blues. I bought an album by them, Mountain, "Climbing", for the tracks written by Felix Papilardi, notably, "Nantucket Sleighride", which is starting to border on symphonic influence.

Noiice the theme in the bridge where it sounds like waves smacking the sides of a whaling skiff, a grandiose symphonic chorus, and a sea chanty thrown in for good measure.



"Real guitar players", will tell you the hit from the album is West's, "Mississippi Queen"

Here's Linda Ronstadt doing Warren Zevon's, "Carmelita:

Last edited by Captaincranky at Oct 3, 2017,
#76
Captaincranky 

Yeah, I've noticed that your musical choices tend to favour big symphonic themes. There's just too much going on for my tastes, I tend to favour smaller "chamber" and "parlor" type sounds. - But each to his own.

However, I found this yesterday, more "symphonic" than most of the stuff I like. Love the vid:



Ms Giddens is IMO a very talented lass.
Last edited by Tony Done at Oct 3, 2017,
#77
Is there mojo in modern music? Sure. Just not in all of it.
Is there mojo in blues, funk, rockabilly, etc.? Sure. Just not in all of it.

As Theodore Sturgeon's second law states: "90% of everything is crap."

Besides our own perceptual filters and biases, there's also simple chronological forces at work red-shifting past music into rosyness. Odds are good if you're listening to old stuff, you're either preselecting your faves (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) OR listening to a source that has cherrypicked the best of a genre or era. The songs that had the right stuff to become "great" in ways that other songs didn't.* The "crap" is already somewhat filtered out.

But if you're listening to the new stuff, you're having to filter out the good from the bad in real time. And that 90% is going to do a good job of obscuring the real gems. Sometimes, even making people give up on the new stuff or even entire media outlets completely.


* not that some songs aren't overplayed or underappreciated.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#78
dannyalcatraz

I think that "filter" effect is important. I've been watching reruns if "Heartbeat" a Brit police series set in the late 60s. They play period-correct music, and even though I suppose it has been filtered to some extent, a lot of it is pretty ordinary. OTOH, I can find some fantastic stuff from back then that I wouldn't have been aware of without Youtube.
#79
Certainly! Some really great stuff never gets the exposure to the masses that would otherwise etch them into the collective consciousness in a big way. Some call these "deep cuts". They suffer this fate for all kinds of reasons- too long for the prevailing radio format; too "dirty" to broadcast; the artist has a personal scandal that gets his p/her/their music yanked; too many similar artists drowning them out....

But for those who buy the albums- as opposed to just singles- they can be absolute treasures.
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!

Log off and play yer guitar!

Strap on, tune up, rock out!
#80
dannyalcatraz What I've strangely found out over the years, is that very often an artist's song I hate the most, is oftentimes the artist's favorite. My favorite is almost never included on the 'greatest hits' album.

As I was telling Tony a few posts ago, as soon as Page puts down his 12 string, I change the record. A big chunk of my favorite tracks are so dark, I would be booed off the stage as a solo act, or immediately kicked out of a cover band.

With those thoughts in mind, here ya go:



Here's Homer's legendary, "Iiliad", with double entender aplenty, which turns it into a song about heroin addiction; Lot's of fanfare, lacks a dance-able beat:



Hero's face was gaunt and tanned, his sail was set in search of land
His life-raft, solely by him manned was guided by the tide
Heroine wore fleecy white, she beckoned like some Savior bright
Shipwrecked sailors in the night were bid welcome to her side.

Where one man's search must surely cease, the irresistible white fleece
Led Hero in search of the peace which she alone could offer
Thus he knelt before her feet wary lest their eyes should meet
He knew his life was incomplete for he had yet to suffer.

Enticing Heroine so calm took Hero firmly by the arm
Told him that she meant no harm, that she alone could save him
Hero could no longer speak while realizing he was weak
His life increasingly grew bleak for all the love she gave to him.

While storm clouds gathered high above, the Heroine he grew to love
Turned slowly to a snow white dove and spread her wings to fly
Crushed and broken in the end, Hero watched his soul ascend
Knowing that he was condemned to sail all alone to die.

BTW, to keep this on topic, I don't think this material has squa to do with the blues...
Last edited by Captaincranky at Oct 4, 2017,