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#41
Brilliant Cas and gpb0216, and i also highly recommend "Liberating the Master Musician Within" by Kenny Werner. Brilliant book and a great read.

Take it slow, do Cas' excericise of playing at a constant tempo, 5mins break, 20mins slow, then 5mins bursts etc.

Do it for 21 days, hell, do it for the rest of your life.

With great accuracy comes great speed, remember the story of the tortoise and the hare? (assuming the tortoise did a little speed burst in the last 50 yards)

no sig for me
#42
Cas, if you still listening, do you have your music online still?
There was a song You had about a year ago, maybe more I can't remember how it went cause there was some pretty fast playing in it and i hadn't even begun to shred then and now I wanna hear it again.
Originally posted by TapMaster
If you break a JEM you know your going to go to hell when you die

Only member of the 'This is too immature for me' club.
#43
Public, I have already PMed him about that and right now he is busy with various things, so maybe in the future.



Ibanez RG1570 Prestige
Laney VC15
Boss DS-1
Jim Dunlop Crybaby
#44
Originally posted by Caressing Death
As a 'Guitar Techniques' instructor once said "Speed is just a by-product of accuracy!" If I could write out tabs on THIS, I could show you some great excercises



Caressing......
Are we not allowed to post tabs here? Just checking....

Is there anyway you can maybe email me some of those great exercises? I truely can use all the help I can get.


Thanks
MidnightThunder
AKA: Shawna
#45
Originally posted by gpb0216
I'm afraid you missed the point entirely. The great irony of speed lies in this:

The slower your practice, the faster your progress and the greater your potential speed.

Any lick, scale, chord or arpeggio practiced with absolute accuracy (i.e., "perfect") will teach your subconscious, in the shortest possible time, exactly what you want to hear, namely beautifully-crafted fast playing.

On the other hand, practicing with anything less than absolute accuracy teaches your subconscious that you want to hear something entirely different, namely sloppy, uncertain playing.

Try this: Resolve to practice only at a tempo at which you can play with total, drop-dead accuracy for 21 days. This will take tremendous discipline. But at the end of those 21 days I promise you'll play at a speed and with an accuracy that will amaze you.

I hope you'll post the results of your experiment. -gpb0216



GP...

The program I have very closely agrees with that....except, it says to find the speed your comfortable with, practice that with great precision, then increase your speed all the up until you can't play it, and then decrease all the way back down to where you originally started. Not only will it be easier on the way back down but your practicing precision but you also finding out what your "speed profile" is.
MidnightThunder
AKA: Shawna
#46
Originally posted by sixteen times
That sounds tempting, that 21 days idea...


Hmmm... do you mean practise chromatics and such this way?


Just to add....the program I have measures singles, doubles, chromatic, scale, pattern and random. It doesn't put a time limit on how quickly you will learn but it says you will see a dramatic difference each week. Each of these things are measured separately and you build from there.

Any thoughts are appreciated
MidnightThunder
AKA: Shawna
#47
Originally posted by gpb0216
What you practice in this way for 21 days is entirely your call. But whatever you practice like this will gleam and shimmer like a precious gem at the end of that 21 days. Try it and see. If you do you'll probably never go back to how you're practicing now. I sure didn't.


gp....

what type of exercises did you practice over and over again? did you come up with them yourself or did you follow something you read or seen somewhere? Just curious because I would like to learn more too.
MidnightThunder
AKA: Shawna
#48
Originally posted by gpb0216
That sounds like something you pulled out of your ass.

e10sc,

Many people claim to have open minds, but your thoughtful response to an idea with which you apparently weren't familiar really sets you apart.

Actually, I first encountered this approach to practicing at the U.S. Armed Forces School of Music in 1976 (please see my profile). In the ensuing 29 years I've practiced this way exclusively and will never go back to trying to force speed. My playing is orders of magnitude smoother and faster than it was when I was a 23-year-old rock star wannabe.

I urge you to give it a try. As I mentioned earlier, this approach requires enormous discipline, but the results are well worth it. If you do get through the 21 days, please post your impressions of the process.

Thanks again for your encouraging message.

All the best,
gpb0216



gp......

I admire your self control. I am completely intersted in hearing more of what you have to say about this so please if you get a chance can you explain in a little more detail. I would love to give it a shot. I am far from perfect, and love to learn from those who know more than me which is almost everybody here LOL, and you will never hear me ever ever ever critisizing someone for merely trying to help or contribute to another persons love of music. Sorry, had to say that.
MidnightThunder
AKA: Shawna
#49
Originally posted by e10sc
Sorry about sounding like an ass, I really didn't mean it. It's just everyone has their ways of doing things, and they always think it's the perfect way to become the next Jimi Hendrix, so don't take offense. I still consider myself a beginner(damn theory) but once you've been playing for a decent amount of time, mastering most songs shouldn't take 21 days. When I first started playing I took everything slow, every chord was emphasized and perfect, every riff was slow and pronounced. So your technique is definately useful, but if you've been playing for 30 years, you really should be able to pick up and song and play it without taking the 21 days.


e10...

I was under the impression that even someone who has played 100 years could take months to learn a song depending on the style of music they currently play and the style they are trying to learn. Also, everybody learns at a different pace...it is just my opinion, but it is always best to encourage as opposed to discourage, so time limits would force disappointment down alot of people's throats because some just can't do it. I'm one of those. What do you think? Any thoughts are appreciated, again...I'm here to learn.

I am working with theory now, and oh my goodness there is so much to learn! I wonder if I'll ever get it. I'm just glad that there are alot of people here with more experience than me willing to offer advice or I don't know what I would do.
MidnightThunder
AKA: Shawna
#50
Originally posted by slimz
cas i think u have to much time on your hands...


I have to add to this too....sorry in advance and I mean no offense whatsoever....

people like cas are the ones that are helping me to become the guitar player I am today. Now, I'm not that great, but I am learning alot from those people. I do not think these people have no lives, I think they have the same deep love, passion, and determination to strive for what they love. I do too and have a HUGE respect for those who are will to take the time out of their busy schedules to share their knowledge with people they don't even know all over the world to help them.....even when it means that some will turn around and critisize, argue, and belittle them for doing so...

I'm sorry but people pay good money to hear the things that I am learning from this forum. It is a gift beyond anything money could buy. So, for those of you who do this, thank you from the bottom of my heart. You have and I'm sure will continue to give me knowledge, know-how, and confidence in myself to pursue this lifelong dream I've had of playing the guitar with the best of them.

Please don't be discouraged from people who don't understand or share the same passion.
MidnightThunder
AKA: Shawna
#51
There's really no need to post 7 times in response to a thread...

I'll chip in here, and I would have sooner if I hadn't been busy all day... the point of practicing slower is to focus on coordination. By conciously paying attention to the movements your making, and keeping them controlled, refining them, and minimizing the amount of movement you need, your actual technique improves.

To give an example... generally we have the notion of picking our fingers up off the fretboard to change their position. Say your arch to clear a string with your ring finger lifts it about a half inch over the action of the string you're clearing... doesn't seem like a lot. But think about this, if you can focus on reducing the amount of motion you make normally, and bring that down to about a quarter of an inch, you've MORE than halved the amount of effort that motion takes. By the fact that you're focusing on making that movement more cleanly, you're also working on making it more accurate, as a side effect.

The less work you have to do, the faster you can do it.

Now that's just one thing to actually focus on, when you're going slow... slow enough that you have the time to actually think about what you're doing, instead of just throwing your fingers around.

The overall idea is that by slowing down, you give yourself a chance to correct the minor imperfections in what you're doing, and to simply do it better, and more efficiently. By training yourself to do it better--not something that just happens by 'practicing', but by focusing--your entire playing improves, from tone, to technical skill, to speed.

No comment on the speed bursts, btw... haven't tried that yet
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#52
Very nice thread, this is why I love ug So much knowledge in here, and for free

I did that slow practise thing before, but apparently never put enough consequence behind it...

thanks to everyone who posted in this thread
#53
Excellent thread, I can see this being archived.


Ibanez RG1570 Prestige
Laney VC15
Boss DS-1
Jim Dunlop Crybaby
#55
little question: say you've been playing a solo at 70bpm(the slow practise thing), at what speed should those 'speed bursts' be? 100? 120? 150? 200? 300? 6000? ...
#57
Originally posted by Freepower
also - say you've practiced an hour at this slow pace - are you "allowed" to just go back to playing normal speed for when you want to compose or something?


Of course! The beauty of this approach is that, in my experience, the forays back into the "normal-speed" world are much more thoughtful and focused and produce wonderful creativity. The 21-Day process refers to the quest for speed, which is where this entire thread got started.

I believe you'll find, though, that the mindset you begin to develop while pursuing the 21-Day approach will quickly draw you back to the "slowed-down" woodshed. It's an absolutely fascinating process. I'm very much looking forward to hearing about your 21-day experiment.
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
#59
Originally posted by slash_pwns
So gpb0216 (for lack of a better name), How fast can you play after using this technique for so many years.

(try not to read that as a smart ass coment)


Absolutely not. I figured this question was going to show up eventually.

My name is G. Patrick Bryant, by the way.

I'm 52 years old and stopped trying to be "fast" the way you're probably thinking of fast a long time ago. In fact, I concluded that I needed to get out of that unwinnable race after listening to the John McLaughlin / Carlos Santana collaboration "Love, Devotion, Surrender" for the first time 'way back in 1972 or so. That record (who uses that term anymore?) still scares the hell out of me.

Having gotten that "confession" out of the way, I'm very comfortable playing just about anything recorded by my guitar beacons Jimi Hendrix, Steve Howe, Alex Liefson and the almost-superhuman Duane Allman. How fast does that make me?

But my ultimate hero, the guitarist whose Gretsch Duo-Jet I'm not even worthy to carry, is the late George Harrison. I've never heard anyone say his name and use the word "fast" in the same sentence. But in my mind, he was the absolute best guitarist ever in terms of taste, stylistic appropriateness and playing a melodic, singing line. Oh, if I could just play like George, may he rest in peace.

Thanks for asking. And how fast are you?
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
#60
I heard if you mix different chemicals you'll get some really good
SPEED!!! lol lol lol J/K ha hah ahahahahah!
Member #3 of the just because club. P.M Mike_Rocka_boy to join !<(420)>!
#61
Originally posted by sixteen times
Excellent thread, I can see this being archived.



Hey! I feel important now! I posted something that people actually talked about. WOOOHOOO! Makes a newbie feel good believe it or not.

I love this whole site, everybody is so helpful.
MidnightThunder
AKA: Shawna
#62
Originally posted by Corwinoid
There's really no need to post 7 times in response to a thread...

are you referring to me???????

I do not know how to do anything else, and since it is bothering you that I am doing this, please feel free to tell me how to do otherwise and how I'm suppose to handle it.

I was under the impression I was doing it right. I did "quote" posts and sent one per person I was answering.....is this against the rules? I am not being rude in anyway nor do I mean any offense, but I am overwhelmed at learning to manuver here as this whole entire posting thing is new to me unlike most of you.....so please correct whatever I am doing wrong.

Are you a moderator? I don't remember who they all are?

I notice in other threads the same people post more than once to keep the messages flowing. Rarely have I seen someone put every single thing in one single post.....unless I am wrong please correct me.

If someone would like me to stop posting, please just say so and I will. I don't know what all of you do that is why I'm here. I made no secret of that. This includes how to use the forums, which I am slowly learning (by making mistakes).
MidnightThunder
AKA: Shawna
#63
Originally posted by gpb0216
I'm 52 years old and stopped trying to be "fast" the way you're probably thinking of fast a long time ago. In fact, I concluded that I needed to get out of that unwinnable race after listening to the John McLaughlin / Carlos Santana collaboration "Love, Devotion, Surrender" for the first time 'way back in 1972 or so. That record (who uses that term anymore?) still scares the hell out of me.


1.since when playing guitar is a competition/race ?
2.why did you gave up so fast ?that is not a good reason/excuse to give up on speed

speed is not everything in playing guitar but it is also an important skill ..
#64
You can quote several people in the one post and answer them respectively. Also if you make a mistake you may edit or delete your post by clicking on the edit button at the bottom of your post next to the quote button.
The moderators for Musician Talk's names are at the top of the MT page above all the other online users names and they are in bold.
No one wants you to stop posting altogether, just the excessive posting. When you can cram all you want to say in one post it is better than just posting a lot of times one after the other.
Keen On Disco
#65
Originally posted by gapster
1.since when playing guitar is a competition/race ?
2.why did you gave up so fast ?that is not a good reason/excuse to give up on speed

speed is not everything in playing guitar but it is also an important skill ..


I knew my reply was going to be misunderstood by some and I hesitated to post it at all, but your questions call for clarification from me and I thank you for them.

1) Early in my guitar-playing life (pre-"Love, Devotion, Surrender") I was consumed with achieving ever-greater playing speed. In fact, all of my guitar-playing peers were likewise focused on one thing only: SPEED! During that time, playing the guitar was a competition for me, and I was in the "hunt", if I do say so myself.

Then, in the early '70s, my best friend (and guitar speed sweepstakes competitor) introduced me to John McLaughlin.

Game over. Thank you for playing.

Nothing I had ever heard had remotely prepared me for the literal torrent of crystal-clear notes pouring out of Dennis' stereo that afternoon. I'm talking about "oh-my-God-why-did-I-ever-think-I-could-play-the-guitar" SPEED! And right then, gapster, I abandoned speed as a way of measuring myself as a guitarist. Always remember this: No matter how fast you can play the guitar (or any other instrument, for that matter), somebody somewhere can play it faster!

So, the short answer to your first question is: At one time playing the guitar was a competitive event for me. It no longer is, and I hope it's not for anyone else reading this post, either.

2) I never once said I had given up on speed. What I did do, however, was lay the quest for speed aside altogether for a few years. Then, while studying at the Armed Forces School of Music (AFSOM) in 1976 I met a true guitar hero in my instructor, MU1 Mike Smith. I'd be amazed if anyone outside the Armed Forces music community has ever heard of Mike, but buddy, he was awesome.

Anyway, Mike introduced me to the 21-Day program I've mentioned several times in this thread. Since that time I've used nothing else.

So let me finish by saying that I do love playing fast. In fact, there's nothing quite like the satisfaction of burning through a beautiful fast solo in front of a crowd, as I'm sure you know. It's just that I don't pursue speed for its own sake anymore. I play plenty fast now, and if I get faster by practicing the way I know and love, then so much the better.

I hope this answers your questions, gapster.

All the best,
gpb
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
Last edited by gpb0216 at May 19, 2005,
#66
could someone please answer my question, i really want to know before i start this 21 day thing, i don't want to **** up my muscle memory!
#67
Originally posted by saddam
could someone please answer my question, i really want to know before i start this 21 day thing, i don't want to **** up my muscle memory!


What's your question?
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
#68
"little question: say you've been playing a solo at 70bpm(the slow practise thing), at what speed should those 'speed bursts' be? 100? 120? 150? 200? 300? 6000? ..." that was my question(i don't know how to do the quote thing...)
#69
alright gpb ...

you know sometimes i am just soooo sick of the whole world telling me shredding sucks ,speed sucks ..somebody is always faster ...etc

it is really unfair now you see the world have this concept "you don't need to be good to make good music " ..people who have talents and practise hell alot got rejected by the world..where as cheap ass pop/punk , hip hop..the talking music gets all the money
#70
Part of it, gapster, is your wonderful attitude.
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#71
Originally posted by gapster
alright gpb ...

you know sometimes i am just soooo sick of the whole world telling me shredding sucks ,speed sucks ..somebody is always faster ...etc


Gapster,

I don't think you could have misunderstood me more totally.

At no time have I ever said that "shredding sucks" or that "speed sucks". I have been playing the guitar for more than 40 years and I know how much work it takes to play truly fast. You have my utmost respect and admiration, and I really mean that.

I did say that "somebody is always faster". That's just reality. I also said that I don't believe anyone should judge their own or anybody else's musicianship by how fast they can play. Please accept my apologies if these statements offend you.

Originally posted by gapster
it is really unfair now you see the world have this concept "you don't need to be good to make good music " ..people who have talents and practise hell alot got rejected by the world..where as cheap ass pop/punk , hip hop..the talking music gets all the money


And never in my life have I downplayed the search for musical excellence. It is horribly, unfairly true that Britney Spears will outsell Rush every single time, but hey, that's life. Our response should be to take our art to its uttermost limit and enjoy the glow of knowing that we're relentlessly working to be as good as we can possibly be.

(And who knows, maybe we'll get picked up to be in Britney's band).

But seriously, Gapster, I love to hear people play fast. Hell, I love to play fast. It's just that it's not the primary focus of my relationship with my guitar anymore.

All the best,
gpb
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
#72
I just wanted to say that I am impressed by the mature debate going on in this topic, it gives me faith that boards like this are still helpful.
I would buy that program, but I don't have a PC. I am going to go buy one of those books. Probably Effortless Mastery: Liberating the Master Musician. The play slow things makes sense. After all when I learn stuff I play it slowly.
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#73
Originally posted by heggazz
You can quote several people in the one post and answer them respectively. Also if you make a mistake you may edit or delete your post by clicking on the edit button at the bottom of your post next to the quote button.
The moderators for Musician Talk's names are at the top of the MT page above all the other online users names and they are in bold.
No one wants you to stop posting altogether, just the excessive posting. When you can cram all you want to say in one post it is better than just posting a lot of times one after the other.



Thank you for the information, I appreciate it. I do notice that many people double and triple and even more post in a thread. I don't get why my post are different than theirs other than I did a few (yes splash, 7) in a row.

My question however was is this against the rules or does it just bug a couple people? As I said I'm still learning how to do all this stuff and I treat everybody with respect and try very hard not to critisize anybody because it discourages them. Splash mentioned this mistake in another one of my threads as well, and I just feel that unnessecary but hey, to each their own. I'm just not one to ridicule people for something as minor as the number of posts on a board. That is why we have a scroll button if we don't want to read them. Right? So, is there a rule against it or no? Or where can I read if there is or not on my own?

I will try in the future not to do that so much. When I posted the 7 posts in a row that Splash keeps referring to, I thought that each one would post directly under the person I was commenting to. It wasn't until here brought it up did I realize they were all in a row at the end.

I thought I read somewhere in the rules when I first joined about long and running on posts. That tells me it is better to separate them. Again, I am not offended easily so if you disagree please let me know.

Also, is there a rule on excessive posting? I thought that is what this board was here for?

Lastly, I don't know how to quote several in one post and haven't yet seen one done that way. Again, any help is appreciated.
MidnightThunder
AKA: Shawna
#74
Originally posted by E Daws

I would buy that program, but I don't have a PC. I am going to go buy one of those books. Probably Effortless Mastery: Liberating the Master Musician. The play slow things makes sense. After all when I learn stuff I play it slowly.

I just wanted to let you know E Daws, that you may not need to buy that program with the knowledge that I have seen here. There are a few people here that are VERY VERY intelligent about these types of exercises, so you can try what I did and just ask for a more in depth explaination if you need to. GPB is a good one to ask, he knows his stuff. (I hope it's ok I mentioned your name)I may even be able to help you with some of it since I do have the actual program. I would be happy to help. Feel free if you like to know anything in it.

I am happy too with the amount of help I get from this board. These people here are wonderful! Always willing to help even the dumbest of questions, which I post alot of. I am thankful for being here. I checked out a couple other boards and it was like people got their kicks from making others feel bad...I'm not interested in that. There aren't many of those here from what I see so far. The debate here was very mature for the most part, I enjoyed it too!
MidnightThunder
AKA: Shawna
#75
Originally posted by gapster
alright gpb ...

you know sometimes i am just soooo sick of the whole world telling me shredding sucks ,speed sucks ..somebody is always faster ...etc

it is really unfair now you see the world have this concept "you don't need to be good to make good music " ..people who have talents and practise hell alot got rejected by the world..where as cheap ass pop/punk , hip hop..the talking music gets all the money


No-one has been saying you don't need to have skills, just that there's more to it then JUST speed.

But I have to disagree with you, though I'm not a pop/punk fan.
A simple song can sound way better than a 300bpm. four-hour shredding session IF the writer of it has the skills to make it good, for that you need skills. Guitar, bass, keyboard etc. etc. Isn't mastered just with the techniques, you got to understand the consepts and logics of each note you play, whether there's two or two thousand in the song.

Did I get a bit carried away again?
"Alot of people that are in bands think you have to preach against every other kind of music in the world to be "hardcore," but that, to me, is just Hitler bull****." -Dime
#76
Originally posted by gpb0216
Gapster,

I don't think you could have misunderstood me more totally.

At no time have I ever said that "shredding sucks" or that "speed sucks". I have been playing the guitar for more than 40 years and I know how much work it takes to play truly fast. You have my utmost respect and admiration, and I really mean that.

But seriously, Gapster, I love to hear people play fast. Hell, I love to play fast. It's just that it's not the primary focus of my relationship with my guitar anymore.

All the best,
gpb


GPB, I wanted to add something to this...hope I'm not out of line here. But from what I see....I have made it no secret that I think you have phenominal musical talent from just hearing what you have to say about the few different aspects of it so far. So, I wanted to ask you about your own playing fast too.....what style of music do you like to play the most? I am basically asking where does your musical passion lye, as far as the style of music go? Did you have a time when playing fast was very important to you? Just curious.

I understand about playing fast not being your focus. The good part is you could do it and get better at it if you chose too by doing just what you taught me. I was just wondering if that maybe why playing fast isn't all that important to you right now?

If you haven't noticed I like to see deep into a passionate musician...I am just curious. Feel free to email me if you would like better to discuss it that way.

Shawna
MidnightThunder
AKA: Shawna
#77
I know that this might seem silly, but how do I know at how many bpm im playing at?

..and I´ve decided to start doing this 21 day thingy with slow and small speed bursts starting today!
"...it's better to know it and choose not to use it, rather than feel the need to use it and not be able to..." Kirk Hammett
#78
Originally posted by Ugliest Weenie
I know that this might seem silly, but how do I know at how many bpm im playing at?


Ask for a Metronome at your local music store. They'll set you right up.
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
#79
I actually got one today, but it doesnt say how many bmp im playing... it just shows q-notes, eight-notes etc... is tempo the bpm?
"...it's better to know it and choose not to use it, rather than feel the need to use it and not be able to..." Kirk Hammett
#80
Tempo is the beats per minute, Q = 60 is 1 beat, or one pulse (depending on meter) per second.

Now, if you're playing 16th notes at that tempo, you're playing 4nps.

If you're playing 8th note triplets at 120 you're playing 6nps, etc.

16nps is 16th notes at 240bpm, to give you an idea how fast that is. That's your metronome set to 240, and 4 notes every time it clicks.
Quote by les_kris
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I'm not even God-like... I've officially usurped the Almighty's throne.
Click here to worship me.

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