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PiNk_ThE_pUnK
Bookstore Core
Join date: Jan 2003
1,107 IQ
#1
So I was talking to an old friend of mine (old as in age not i've known him for ages) who was around throughout the early 80's punk and hardcore scene and we got talking about dancing. What he had to say I found incredibly interesting and I thought some of you would also like to learn about this sort of thing. So here it is:

I've heard of two different characters who apparently 'invented' slamdancing. One is Jim Kaa, guitarist of seminal beach punks The Crowd (y'know where the Descendents got it all from along with the Klan), and the other is Mike Marine (of the Decline of Western Civilization). The year and place the same; 1979 in Huntington Beach, California.

Bored of the traditional pogo, jumping and pushing into other people became the order of the day. And if you believe the Mike Marine story, gave a good battering at the same time. The dance was referred to as the 'Huntington Beach Shuffle' (as immortalised by Shawn Kerri's 'skank kid' cartoons for the Circle Jerks) when the dance evolved into running in a large circle; "If you look at the slamdance itself, if you look at the configuration, it's basically a kid riding a skateboard." (Keith Morris, Circle Jerks/Black Flag).

If you want to look at the dance, you also have to look at the precise origins of hardcore itself. Which again, traces back to Huntington Beach, and certain schools such as Edison High, where otherwise normal beach kids were getting regularly hospitalised by roaming gangs of 4x4 Lynyrd Skynyrd rednecks. A friend of 'Eugene' (Decline of Western Civilisation) called Dana decided to form a "fight-back skinhead army", and within weeks was in 'control' of upwards of 100 kids controlled by an inner circle; 'the Wayward Cains' (6'+ surfer kids who later became members of bands like T.S.O.L.) These beach kids took on the more sensationalised and violent media version of what punk rock was supposed to be, and intensified it.

Darby Crash died in December 1980, so the Germs, the only original 1977 band of the Masque scene to be embraced by the beach kids, were out of the frame, and the rest of the early punks rejected hardcore. But bands such as Black Flag, Fear and the Circle Jerks, were speeding up their music, encouraging slamdancing. Which was already being shortened to 'slamming' or 'skanking', and the dancefloor became known as 'the pit'.

The Circle Jerks (and entourage) had headed north in August 1980, and played at the Mabuhay Gardens with a touring Teen Idles from Washington D.C. and MacKaye, Rolllins, Nelson and their counterparts went back east impressed with the codified behaviour, dancing and uniform of these 'hardcore' punks, and Minor Threat was formed, along with harDCore, as they adopted it, including as a way to defend themselves against the normals. The influence also left it's bootprint on San Francisco at the same time, seeing bands speed up, including the Dead Kennedys on the 1981 'In God We Trust, Inc.'

But it remained the 'slam' until the last-legs, and desperate for ideas, heavy metal, decided to appropriate hardcore's intensity, art and fashion in order to redefine itself as thrash metal in the mid-late 80's. This is where it was renamed the 'mosh' (if it was Vinnie Stigma, he was probably asking Roger for a 'wash' ); a caricature term, much more cute, and media-friendly, that has, sadly, become the accepted term for the slamdance.

By the mid-late 80's, hardcore 'punk' had obviously moved on, with the post-revolution summer D.C. scene moving on and eschewing violence, and even dancing in totality. Other reactions against (in true punk rock fashion) were the pigpiling, goofing about and food fights, popular in the emerging S.F. Bay Area 'Gilman Street' scene and the likes Operation Ivy and especially Isocracy (later Samiam), where humour and shift back to melody and urgency, spawned the pop punk scene that exploded globally in the mid 90's.

The current fare of macho ridiculousness came to the fore with the rise of Victory records style 'hardcore', and bands like Earth Crisis in the mid 90's, further evolved by Bridge Nine type dirge. I don't know anything about the specifics of this kind of 'hardcore' as I have no interest in it, own none of the music, and have heard very little, as it is a continuation of the late 80's thrash metal as far as I'm concerned.

"I don't know when they stopped calling it the 'slam pit' and it started to be called the 'mosh pit'. That term came about after I got out of the scene. I think it came from heavy metal. It's not punk. It never came from Flag or any of the early Orange County hardcore bands that I remember." Mugger (SST Records, Black Flag roadie, Nigheist)

Just something i'd like to add Vinnie Stigma of Agnostic Front is credited with coining the term "mosh" as it supposidly stands for "March Of Skin Heads" but it is actually a derrivation of a term the Bad Brains used which was "mash it up" which was a form of afro-carribean dancing. This got changed as people without the afro-carribean accents started to use it.

Just some history for you all their that I thought was interesting.
All-O-Gistics:

Thou shalt always go for greatness
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radio_schizo
don't look now
Join date: Sep 2004
2,833 IQ
#2
Wow, I never knew that Vinnie Stigma came up with the term "mosh", and that it standed for "March Of Skin Heads".
I still think slam dancing sounds better though.

Interesting read there. Well written too, I might add
BigFatSandwich
occasional poster
Join date: Apr 2004
1,451 IQ
#3
God do I hate hardcore dancing. Nothing ruins a show better than having some spazzy 14 year old running towards you, flailing his limbs in every which direction when all you're trying to do is enjoy the music.

I've dealt with this many many times and I don't even go to hardcore shows! Some kids were doing this at a friggin midtown concert for crying out loud!

So when I see an unearth concert on TV or something, and I see kids drop-kicking each other in the face, it really makes me sick. Jumping and/or moving around to release some energy is one thing.... but super street fighter II turbo jumping flash kicks are another.

But...... to each their own, I guess.
Banging on a trash can
Drumming on a street light
LazyGuitar
Caramelised
Join date: Mar 2002
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#4
*stickiwied*
An eye for an eye leaves everyone a pirate.
*Def*
UG ENGL Endorser
Join date: Nov 2002
326 IQ
#6
Nice read!

you might have noticed I haven't been around much Dai, I've been really busy with my band, study and girlfriend lately.. I've decided to quit modding on UG since I'm hardly around.
Gear Whore
PiNk_ThE_pUnK
Bookstore Core
Join date: Jan 2003
1,107 IQ
#7
No worries man, i've been pretty busy with college etc at the moment so I know what that's like. It's a pity you've quit modding but I guess your real life is more important than a forum eh?!
All-O-Gistics:

Thou shalt always go for greatness
Thou shalt not commit adulthood (ALL)
Thou shalt not partake of decaf (ALL!)
Thou shalt not have no idea (ALL)
Thou shalt not allow anything to deter you in your quest for all (ALL!)
emokid182
Registered User
Join date: Dec 2003
282 IQ
#8
this was probably the best article i've seen on this sight for a logn time.
tinblimp9340
Mosh It Up
Join date: Jul 2004
199 IQ
#9
tru dat..
Quote by i'm a noob
is there a website with the location of dealers? i mean, i want to try weed for the first time, but none of my friends do it or anything, and i don't know where to get it. For safety purposes you might want to PM me.
whyvern
jet skis on the reg
Join date: Mar 2002
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#10
I'm assuming this is also a good place to fill others about local forms of slamdancing. Here in North Alabama me and some friend do this thing called "The Alabama Shuffle" it where you dance like a hick and ****ing run into everyone in the pit and scream things out with a thick southern accent.

If you can come across the Chaos Kitchen episode with the Eyes of Hate, I'm on it doing the Alabama Shuffle.
HELP ME I'M TRAPPED IN A HUMAN BODY!
Combat
Registered User
Join date: Feb 2005
87 IQ
#11
this is awesome. its good to show kids that hardcore dancing has some history to it, since everyone on here seems to hate it. it also goes against the metal forums making fun of it in thier "Hardcore Dancing" thread where all they do is bash it.
whyvern
jet skis on the reg
Join date: Mar 2002
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#12
Hardcore dancing where you act like a ninja is stupid.


Circle Pits, Not Ninja Kicks!
HELP ME I'M TRAPPED IN A HUMAN BODY!
tinblimp9340
Mosh It Up
Join date: Jul 2004
199 IQ
#13
Circle pits suck.
Quote by i'm a noob
is there a website with the location of dealers? i mean, i want to try weed for the first time, but none of my friends do it or anything, and i don't know where to get it. For safety purposes you might want to PM me.
LedZeppelin
Registered User
Join date: Jan 2004
2,316 IQ
#14
Hardcore dancing has got to be the most absurd thing I've ever seen. The fact that so much of its history is based on random things said by former members of "classic" hardcore bands just shows its stupidity even more. Circle pits are ridiculous...moshing is supposed to be about having fun, not getting the crap kicked out of you by some kid who has a bone to pick with the air.

Having said that, it was a well-written article, and you definitely did your research, no matter how silly I believe the subject matter to be.

Quote by Combat
this is awesome. its good to show kids that hardcore dancing has some history to it, since everyone on here seems to hate it. it also goes against the metal forums making fun of it in thier "Hardcore Dancing" thread where all they do is bash it.


How does the fact that it has a history mean anything to people who hate it? And that thread in the metal forum is long dead. There was one about dancing at a Cryptopsy show, though, which disgusts me...that might still be floating around somewhere...
whyvern
jet skis on the reg
Join date: Mar 2002
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#15
Quote by LedZeppelin
Circle pits are ridiculous...moshing is supposed to be about having fun, not getting the crap kicked out of you by some kid who has a bone to pick with the air.



ummm a cirlce pit is a bunch of kids that run around in a circle.
HELP ME I'M TRAPPED IN A HUMAN BODY!
tinblimp9340
Mosh It Up
Join date: Jul 2004
199 IQ
#17
Quote by casualtyvampire
circle pits n two stepping is so fun. good article.

Isn't that an oxymoron?
Quote by i'm a noob
is there a website with the location of dealers? i mean, i want to try weed for the first time, but none of my friends do it or anything, and i don't know where to get it. For safety purposes you might want to PM me.
LedZeppelin
Registered User
Join date: Jan 2004
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#18
Quote by whyvern
ummm a cirlce pit is a bunch of kids that run around in a circle.


Those were separate thoughts. Circle pits are stupid, "air ninjas" are stupid.
Quote by HuckIt
My weirdest dream would have to be when I dreamed that I met this chick I really liked and wanted to practice sex, so I practiced on some guy I met at a gas station...that was pretty screwed up.
CreedSUCKS DIRK
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Join date: Dec 2004
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#19
I'm assuming this is also a good place to fill others about local forms of slamdancing. Here in North Alabama me and some friend do this thing called "The Alabama Shuffle" it where you dance like a hick and ****ing run into everyone in the pit and scream things out with a thick southern accent.


You assumed correctly. That sounds totally awesome man.
Some of them actually admit it:

Yeah. Just look at me, by being Catholic, I'm destroying the world.

**** guys, this has to stop. Seriously.
Combat
Registered User
Join date: Feb 2005
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#20
Quote by LedZeppelin
Those were separate thoughts. Circle pits are stupid, "air ninjas" are stupid.

yeah running into people and banging your head is so much funner
LaihoRocks
resident of Helsinki
Join date: Jun 2005
54 IQ
#23
I think hardcore dancing is hilarious! In my opinoin watching 2 fourtenn year olds drop kicking eachother is the funniest thing on the planet. I would never participate watching is hilarious!
I am Finnish! member #19 of the pit ninja's... the truce between pirates and ninjas is over! O.o oh well, it was good while it lasted
Cadd99
I like music. Yeah.
Join date: Jan 2004
531 IQ
#24
I hate hardcore dancing. When kids start a hardcore dancing circle at shows by me I do the robot, no joke. Then, if I'm feeling it, I start to breakdance. If you're gonna start a pussy pit, might as well act like a pussy.
gdawg3001
Registered User
Join date: Dec 2003
93 IQ
#25
Quote by Cadd99
I hate hardcore dancing. When kids start a hardcore dancing circle at shows by me I do the robot, no joke. Then, if I'm feeling it, I start to breakdance. If you're gonna start a pussy pit, might as well act like a pussy.


you are my hero.
shai_savant
Registered User
Join date: May 2005
212 IQ
#26
Quote by Cadd99
I hate hardcore dancing. When kids start a hardcore dancing circle at shows by me I do the robot, no joke. Then, if I'm feeling it, I start to breakdance. If you're gonna start a pussy pit, might as well act like a pussy.

that's gay...if you don't like it then don't participate...don't instigate fights...good thing that you don't go to real hardcore shows though
How can I keep Stability
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gdawg3001
Registered User
Join date: Dec 2003
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#27
if he went to real hardcore shows, he wouldnt have to worry becauase theres no hardcore dancing there.
PiNk_ThE_pUnK
Bookstore Core
Join date: Jan 2003
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#28
gdawg3001, if you knew anything on this matter i'd quite possibly listen to you. Hardcore dancing is called thus because it is done at hardcore shows. Yes there are lots of fashion-core kids that do it at crappy metal-core shows but it happens at hardcore shows aswell. For example Good Clean Fun last year, Bane, Champion, Comeback Kid, Modern Life Is War this year. It happens get over it.

Also another point that is off topic but worth noting we all really need to stop this stupid bickering over tr00 hardcore, it's getting almost as bad as the metal forum in here. If you want to argue with someone about their musical taste or anything for that matter do it in a polite, informed way. This should help stop making us all look like neanderthals and get some positive discussion going. I know i'm guilty of this aswell but I am trying to sort it out. Hopefully if everyone tries it'll happen. (I swear i'm far too posi )
All-O-Gistics:

Thou shalt always go for greatness
Thou shalt not commit adulthood (ALL)
Thou shalt not partake of decaf (ALL!)
Thou shalt not have no idea (ALL)
Thou shalt not allow anything to deter you in your quest for all (ALL!)
hXcMacbeth3
Registered User
Join date: Nov 2004
256 IQ
#29
Quote by PiNk_ThE_pUnK


Also another point that is off topic but worth noting we all really need to stop this stupid bickering over tr00 hardcore, it's getting almost as bad as the metal forum in here. If you want to argue with someone about their musical taste or anything for that matter do it in a polite, informed way. This should help stop making us all look like neanderthals and get some positive discussion going. I know i'm guilty of this aswell but I am trying to sort it out. Hopefully if everyone tries it'll happen. (I swear i'm far too posi )



AMEN
Originally posted by thestrumbum
the scream is so powerfull. my balls started two steppin.
shai_savant
Registered User
Join date: May 2005
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#30
Quote by PiNk_ThE_pUnK
gdawg3001, if you knew anything on this matter i'd quite possibly listen to you. Hardcore dancing is called thus because it is done at hardcore shows. Yes there are lots of fashion-core kids that do it at crappy metal-core shows but it happens at hardcore shows aswell. For example Good Clean Fun last year, Bane, Champion, Comeback Kid, Modern Life Is War this year. It happens get over it.

Also another point that is off topic but worth noting we all really need to stop this stupid bickering over tr00 hardcore, it's getting almost as bad as the metal forum in here. If you want to argue with someone about their musical taste or anything for that matter do it in a polite, informed way. This should help stop making us all look like neanderthals and get some positive discussion going. I know i'm guilty of this aswell but I am trying to sort it out. Hopefully if everyone tries it'll happen. (I swear i'm far too posi )

i wasn't making fun of him for not going to real hardcore shows i was just saying that at at shows like terror people wouldn't take kindly to making fun of...also i did end up seeing BANE tonight...i love last minute rides....butt hey didn't play Ante Up, or My Therapy...two songs that i really wanted to hear
How can I keep Stability
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Prayers that a smile will flag me down.
LedZeppelin
Registered User
Join date: Jan 2004
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#31
Quote by PiNk_ThE_pUnK
Also another point that is off topic but worth noting we all really need to stop this stupid bickering over tr00 hardcore, it's getting almost as bad as the metal forum in here. If you want to argue with someone about their musical taste or anything for that matter do it in a polite, informed way. This should help stop making us all look like neanderthals and get some positive discussion going. I know i'm guilty of this aswell but I am trying to sort it out. Hopefully if everyone tries it'll happen. (I swear i'm far too posi )


This is completely off-topic, BUT

See, in the metal forum, we flame people so badly they either:

A.) Never come back
B.) Get a new username, figure out what real metal is, and come back.

Here, people can't agree. At least the metal forum is full of AGREEING elitists, not to mention elitists who are right about most stuff.
Quote by HuckIt
My weirdest dream would have to be when I dreamed that I met this chick I really liked and wanted to practice sex, so I practiced on some guy I met at a gas station...that was pretty screwed up.
Gomorrah
Dissertation 14
Join date: May 2005
577 IQ
#32
^From what I've seen, you're the one getting flamed, so don't go on about that nonsense and include yourself with the elitist metalheads.


In other news, well written article, Dai. I'm not really a fan of hardcore dancing (two stepping is ok) but it was still an interesting read.
Quote by JobForACowboy
um, yes it is.

sry if you havent heard of it, death metal bands that wear girl jeans = emodeath
Combat
Registered User
Join date: Feb 2005
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#33
yeah, ive seen him post in the metal forum about how the hardcore forum sucks because everyone hates eachother. it made me laugh.
Cadd99
I like music. Yeah.
Join date: Jan 2004
531 IQ
#34
Quote by shai_savant
that's gay...if you don't like it then don't participate...don't instigate fights...good thing that you don't go to real hardcore shows though

It's funny because all "real" hardcore sucks except for Gorilla Biscuits, Shai Hulud and some Donnybrook. I guess I'm not cool enough to like all the rest of "real" hardcore. Look, I respect what they did to make what I listen to what I listen to, but I still don't like most of it. I don't pretend to be scene or any **** like that, I go to shows cause I like the music, not because I try to prove how hardcore I am unlike most of the kids in the "scene" these days.
LedZeppelin
Registered User
Join date: Jan 2004
2,316 IQ
#35
^ Always a good approach. I think that's actually the reason some people think metalcore is such a joke- all the scene kids, not the music itself.
Quote by HuckIt
My weirdest dream would have to be when I dreamed that I met this chick I really liked and wanted to practice sex, so I practiced on some guy I met at a gas station...that was pretty screwed up.
shai_savant
Registered User
Join date: May 2005
212 IQ
#36
Quote by Cadd99
It's funny because all "real" hardcore sucks except for Gorilla Biscuits, Shai Hulud and some Donnybrook. I guess I'm not cool enough to like all the rest of "real" hardcore. Look, I respect what they did to make what I listen to what I listen to, but I still don't like most of it. I don't pretend to be scene or any **** like that, I go to shows cause I like the music, not because I try to prove how hardcore I am unlike most of the kids in the "scene" these days.

that's not what i meant

what i meant was that if you made fun of dancing at a show with donnybrook for example...you probably would last long in the pit

just respect what other people like and you'll be fine and there won't be any fights(not just you in particular...i mean in general)
How can I keep Stability
On such shaky ground?
Prayers that a smile will flag me down.
Cadd99
I like music. Yeah.
Join date: Jan 2004
531 IQ
#37
Quote by shai_savant
that's not what i meant

what i meant was that if you made fun of dancing at a show with donnybrook for example...you probably would last long in the pit

just respect what other people like and you'll be fine and there won't be any fights(not just you in particular...i mean in general)


I'm not gonna lie - most of the shows I go to, the kids are (a) not really fans of the music and (b) try too hard to be "scene". They have no respect for "hardcore" because they aren't hardcore, and if they ever started up with me I'd be able to kick their asses because they're thin, weak emo boy-girls with girl pants and tight shirts.

I've been to shows where the kids meant what they were, and I wouldn't do it there, like you said - I wouldn't disrespect that - but at local shows with all these pussy scene poser schmucks, I could care less.
francoshade_uk
Registered User
Join date: Jul 2005
50 IQ
#38
Ok what is this? Why do people insult hardcore dancing on the internet you pussys?

They have never been to a real hardcore show (Dead after school, shark attack etc...)

the SCENE is your local bands and your music SCENE, just like you have a local rave SCENE, bmx SCENE, skate scene and gay scene lol whatever!

The scene is not your sisters pants and some hair extentions!


As for hardcore dancing, stop watching what the americans are filming because i swear half of them cant dance and just spazz out... dancing isnt about hurting people...

Metalheads allways seem to moan about hardcore dancing there just ignorant ****s
LedZeppelin
Registered User
Join date: Jan 2004
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#39
That's because hardcore kids sometimes do it at metal shows.

Example: There was a thread about kids dancing during a Cryptopsy set. Honestly...Cryptopsy? What the shit?
Quote by HuckIt
My weirdest dream would have to be when I dreamed that I met this chick I really liked and wanted to practice sex, so I practiced on some guy I met at a gas station...that was pretty screwed up.
shai_savant
Registered User
Join date: May 2005
212 IQ
#40
Quote by LedZeppelin
That's because hardcore kids sometimes do it at metal shows.

Example: There was a thread about kids dancing during a Cryptopsy set. Honestly...Cryptopsy? What the shit?

so i've seen moshing during hardcore bands...shut the **** up and get over it
How can I keep Stability
On such shaky ground?
Prayers that a smile will flag me down.