#1
Hey Everyone

I'm wondering if there's any specific techniques or common practices to developing good blues shuffles. Stuff like SRV or Kenny Wayne Shephard.

I have a fair amount of theory knowledge and i've been able to make good blues riffs and progressions before. But i find that when it comes to shuffles i'm having a very hard time making my own stuff, i think something is missing.

Thanks in advance for all help!

Cheers
-Falcatarius
#2
Quote by Falcatarius
Hey Everyone

I'm wondering if there's any specific techniques or common practices to developing good blues shuffles. Stuff like SRV or Kenny Wayne Shephard.

I have a fair amount of theory knowledge and i've been able to make good blues riffs and progressions before. But i find that when it comes to shuffles i'm having a very hard time making my own stuff, i think something is missing.

Thanks in advance for all help!

Cheers
-Falcatarius
It will help to remember that about 99.9% of all blues shuffles are in 12/8 time. Here's a very basic lesson on the blues shuffle (and blues riffs) aimed at absolute beginners, but maybe it will help a little...

The Blues Shuffle
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
#3
I mean , maybe its just me, feel free to abuse me if you will, but blues shuffles seem to me pretty basic in principle
There is poetry in despair.
#4
Quote by gpb0216
It will help to remember that about 99.9% of all blues shuffles are in 12/8 time. Here's a very basic lesson on the blues shuffle (and blues riffs) aimed at absolute beginners, but maybe it will help a little...
It isn't really 12/8 as much as a swing rhythm. I suppose you could write it in 12/8, but it is usually written in 4/4 with a swing rhythm noted at the beginning.
#5
If it's a shuffle rhythm, it usually is indicated by a 4/4 time sig with a note telling you it's shuffle. Otherwise, if you make it 12/8, you have a ridiculously fast BPM... anything more than 200 or les than 60 is generally avoided when transcribing music.

Slow blues, though, is best written as 12/8.
Looking for my India/Django.
#6
I mean , maybe its just me, feel free to abuse me if you will, but blues shuffles seem to me pretty basic in principle


Basic blues shuffles are ridiculously easy to both play and in the theory behind it. Your absolutely correct. But i find that the ones that really sound good tend to be more complicated and i have a harder time getting them to come out.

I can make basic blues shuffles that sound decent, but i can't rip into something like the shuffle for "Pride and Joy" or "Rude Mood". I want to train myself to be able to make stuff like that.

Thanks for the help.

Cheers!
-Falcatarius
#7
Quote by redwing_suck
Otherwise, if you make it 12/8, you have a ridiculously fast BPM
Why would the BPM be completely different?

Quote by redwing_suck
Slow blues, though, is best written as 12/8.
Agreed.
#8
Quote by bangoodcharlote
It isn't really 12/8 as much as a swing rhythm. I suppose you could write it in 12/8, but it is usually written in 4/4 with a swing rhythm noted at the beginning.
Well, without putting too fine a point on it, 4/4 in swing is 12/8 time. Where are you guys learning your time signatures?
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
#9
Quote by redwing_suck
If it's a shuffle rhythm, it usually is indicated by a 4/4 time sig with a note telling you it's shuffle. Otherwise, if you make it 12/8, you have a ridiculously fast BPM... anything more than 200 or les than 60 is generally avoided when transcribing music.

Slow blues, though, is best written as 12/8.
This is by no means a slam on you, because I find this misunderstanding everywhere, in players of virtually every skill level, but the fact is, tempo and the time signature are completely unrelated. A 12/8 at 40 bpm has precisely the same feel as a 12/8 at 220 bpm, namely, four beats to the measure with the dotted quarter getting the beat. The 220 bpm shuffle is a hell of a lot faster than a 40 bpm shuffle, of course. But the shuffle feel remains the same.

This stuff is absolutely basic, friends. If you've been taught this incorrectly, and I must assume that you have, you need to go back to the egg, start over and learn it correctly.
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
#10
Quote by gpb0216
Well, without putting too fine a point on it, 4/4 in swing is 12/8 time. Where are you guys learning your time signatures?
Well obviously they're related. The swing is based on the triplet and the 12/8 is based on the triplet. But you wouldn't write something like "Pride and Joy" in 12/8.
#11
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Well obviously they're related. The swing is based on the triplet and the 12/8 is based on the triplet. But you wouldn't write something like "Pride and Joy" in 12/8.
I'm listening to "Pride and Joy" as I write this. It's most definitely, positively 12/8 blues.
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
#12
Quote by gpb0216
I'm listening to "Pride and Joy" as I write this. It's most definitely, positively 12/8 blues.
It could be written in 12/8. That isn't wrong, it just wouldn't be written like that.
#13
Quote by bangoodcharlote
It could be written in 12/8. That isn't wrong, it just wouldn't be written like that.
Well, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and swims like a duck, it must be a duck. If it feels, sounds and swings like 12/8, then it must be 12/8. I'm not going to get into a pissing contest over this, but you can take this to the bank: 4/4 swing is 12/8.
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
#16
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Most people would put it in 4/4 with a shuffle rhythm.


it depends. ok maybe "most people" is right, maybe its not, i dont know because i dont care, but for me:

if i was writing a piece for the rythmn section, sure i'd put it in 4/4 with shuffle rythmn.

but if there was a guitar piece for the song, i'd do 12/8 cuz its easier to write things that way imo.
#17
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Most people would put it in 4/4 with a shuffle rhythm.
I suspect most people (and please note: I'm not saying this is why you would write this way) would write a 12/8 piece as a 4/4 shuffle because so few musicians really understand how to interpret time signatures.
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
#18
Quote by bangoodcharlote
Why would the BPM be completely different?


The 12/8 time sig indicates that you're counting the 8th notes (triplets in this case) as the beat indicators... there are twelve in a measure. That's a lot more beats than in a 4/4 shuffle rhythm.

As an example, "Pride and Joy" by SRV... it's 4/4 shuffle. Had it been transcribed as 12/8, you'd have 3 times as many beats per minute.

Now, take "Out Of My Mind" by John Mayer Trio. It's 12/8 blues. Had it been transcribed as 4/4 shuffle, the BPM would be less than 60 --- not good.
Looking for my India/Django.
#19
Quote by redwing_suck
The 12/8 time sig indicates that you're counting the 8th notes (triplets in this case) as the beat indicators... there are twelve in a measure. That's a lot more beats than in a 4/4 shuffle rhythm.

As an example, "Pride and Joy" by SRV... it's 4/4 shuffle. Had it been transcribed as 12/8, you'd have 3 times as many beats per minute.

Now, take "Out Of My Mind" by John Mayer Trio. It's 12/8 blues. Had it been transcribed as 4/4 shuffle, the BPM would be less than 60 --- not good.
You're assuming that the tempo marker says "eigth note equals fill in the blank." I usually see 12/8 written with "dotten quarter note equals fill in the blank," which would make the tempo number lower rather than higher.
#20
Quote by bangoodcharlote
You're assuming that the tempo marker says "eigth note equals fill in the blank." I usually see 12/8 written with "dotten quarter note equals fill in the blank," which would make the tempo number lower rather than higher.

Yeah... I am.

I see more of that than "dotted quarter note equals," actually... hm.
Looking for my India/Django.
#21
i always see "dotted quarter note equals".

i work with a lot of sheet music in band, and so far, im PRETTY sure all of my time sigs that are like "groups of 3" signatures (i want to say compound, tho i forget now if thats right or not), have that "dotted quarter equals".

anyway if someones confused, ill try to explain:

4/4 time, there would be your bpm marking, looking like this: "Quarter note = 120 bpm" (for example)

a lot of people dont really pay attention to the "quarter note" part. thats when this happens:

12/8 time, there would probly be something like : "Dotted Quarter note = 80 bpm" if we change the dotted quarter note to a normal quarter note, it goes "quarter note = 60 bpm"

now you may think "wtf? thats half the speed!", but you forget: we're in /8 time. so its 2x as fast as if we were in 12/4.

so 2x60 = 120.


so technically because we're writing it as DOTTED quarter note = 80 bpm, you DO change the beats per minute, BUTTTT

the beat is still the same. If i wanted to tap my foot to a 4/4 shuffle at 120 bpm, or a 12/8 at 80bpm, i would still land on the same beats.
#22
Quote by redwing_suck
The 12/8 time sig indicates that you're counting the 8th notes (triplets in this case) as the beat indicators... there are twelve in a measure. That's a lot more beats than in a 4/4 shuffle rhythm. As an example, "Pride and Joy" by SRV... it's 4/4 shuffle. Had it been transcribed as 12/8, you'd have 3 times as many beats per minute. Now, take "Out Of My Mind" by John Mayer Trio. It's 12/8 blues. Had it been transcribed as 4/4 shuffle, the BPM would be less than 60 --- not good.
Every single statement in this post is incorrect. R_S, you may have guitar skills beyond belief, but your understanding of time signatures is abysmal. Please, take a time signature lesson or two from somebody who understands them. I'm sorry to single you out, because it's truly not just you. In fact, I see this level of time signature confusion in virtually every one of my new students as soon as he or she starts learning to read standard notation.

Fellow guitarists, if you never read another thing I post, please read and remember these statements:

The 12/8 time signature does not mean "12 beats to the measure with the eighth-note receiving the beat".

The 12/8 time signature does mean "four beats to the measure with the dotted eighth-note receiving the beat".

The feel of a 4/4 time signature piece played with a swing feel is identical to the feel of a piece notated in 12/8 time.
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
#24
^I understand that I do not have a great grasp on time signatures... I'm just quoting all my tab books here. Literally, many of my phrases were verbatim. I worked it out once... in some random blues tab I have, the time sig was indicated as 12/8 and I tried matching the BPM with my metronome, and they were counting the beats as each time the dotted-eigth notes hit...

But thanks for calling my mistakes.
Looking for my India/Django.
#25
"swing" is indicated by this sign:
quarternote--quarternote = dottedquarter--eighth
or i guess
eighth--eighth = dottedeighth--sixteenth
works too

listen to any song with a boogie/monkey beat rhythm, it goes
1 e and a 2 e and a 3 e and a 4 e and a
Last edited by Dan Steinman at Jun 14, 2006,
#26
Quote by Dan Steinman
"swing" is indicated by this sign:
quarternote--quarternote = dottedquarter--eighth
or i guess
eighth--eighth = dottedeighth--sixteenth
works too
That is incorrect and the reason why is actually the basis of my argument with mangablade and gpb0216. Swing ryhthm is shown at the beginning with two 8th notes set equal to a quarter note and an 8th note under a triplet.
#27
Quote by bangoodcharlote
That is incorrect and the reason why is actually the basis of my argument with mangablade and gpb0216. Swing ryhthm is shown at the beginning with two 8th notes set equal to a quarter note and an 8th note under a triplet.
...which is precisely how we interpret and play 12/8 time. As I said earlier, musicians often write 12/8 time as 4/4 swing because they simply cannot interpret 12/8 time, even if they know the signature exists. And most of the ones who do know it exists think the 12/8 signature means "12 beats to the measure with the eighth-note getting one beat". There's really no reason to use the "4/4 swing" notation, as this feel is much more accurately and cleanly represented by the 12/8 signature.
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
#29
Quote by bangoodcharlote
I respectfully disagree.
If only all disagreements could be this agreeable.
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
#31
Quote by Dan Steinman
"swing" is indicated by this sign:
quarternote--quarternote = dottedquarter--eighth
or i guess
eighth--eighth = dottedeighth--sixteenth
works too

listen to any song with a boogie/monkey beat rhythm, it goes
1 e and a 2 e and a 3 e and a 4 e and a
This, I believe, is 6/8 - two beats per measure with the dotted quarter getting the beat. It doesn't actually get to beats 3 and 4, as they're in the next measure.
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
#32
Quote by gpb0216
This, I believe, is 6/8 - two beats per measure with the dotted quarter getting the beat. It doesn't actually get to beats 3 and 4, as they're in the next measure.



man gbp!!! why do you always go and correct others! i need to know if IM right toO!