#1
now i know from the symmetry of the both the w-h and h-w 8 note scales that its possible to use dim7 licks over dom7b9s by using that major third of the dom7b9 chord

but wouldnt that technically be considered a mode of the diminished scale?
#4
well those scales are so symmetrical that there aren't modes.

it's the same from any way you look at it.

I always just thought you were playing the diminished scale starting a half step higher than the root. it just hits the 3rd, 5th, 7th, and b9th with stunning accuracy
#5
Hmm, a little question I always wonder about though, when playing over an ehm.. say a G7b9. What diminished scale do you use, and please clarify if that's half-whole or whole-half
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#6
you can pretty much start on either the 3rd 7th or b9th and just play up or down from there... that is with the scale that goes 1 b3 b5 bb6. i'm not sure that's exactly the diminished scale you're thinking of, but you could also use the altered scale i believe: 1, b9, #9, b5, #5, b7 (i spelled it like that because of the altered chord tones it implies, it's probably not proper). it works well over any 7th chord with flat 9, sharp 9, flat 5 or sharp 5. correct me if i'm wrong, but i think that's all right
#7
Thank you, but do you use the scale that goes 1 - b2 - b3 (half whole) or 1 - 2 - b3 (whole half)?
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#8
Quote by elvenkindje
Thank you, but do you use the scale that goes 1 - b2 - b3 (half whole) or 1 - 2 - b3 (whole half)?
Use G HW. That will give you the b9 of the chord.
#9
for the half whole scale think of its tonic chord(which is dominant) and for the whole-half its tonic chord is diminished

its easy for me to call them the 8-note dominant and 8-note diminished scales
i know its not traditional but it helps
Last edited by Deubener-PL at Jun 14, 2006,
#10
Quote by Dan Steinman
you can pretty much start on either the 3rd 7th or b9th and just play up or down from there... that is with the scale that goes 1 b3 b5 bb6. i'm not sure that's exactly the diminished scale you're thinking of, but you could also use the altered scale i believe: 1, b9, #9, b5, #5, b7 (i spelled it like that because of the altered chord tones it implies, it's probably not proper). it works well over any 7th chord with flat 9, sharp 9, flat 5 or sharp 5. correct me if i'm wrong, but i think that's all right


wait the altered scale has altered 9th AND 5ths?
i thought it was just 9ths


(sorry for double post)
#11
yes, and a major 3rd.

it should go

1 b9 #9 3 #4 #5 7 8

the diminished scale and altered scale can be used over the same chords most of the time, they just give a different sound.

in fact, sometimes the alt scale is called something like diminished wholetone , because it starts in hw dim scale and ends in whole tone
#13
Quote by scheck006
yes, and a major 3rd.

it should go

1 b9 #9 3 #4 #5 7 8

the diminished scale and altered scale can be used over the same chords most of the time, they just give a different sound.

in fact, sometimes the alt scale is called something like diminished wholetone , because it starts in hw dim scale and ends in whole tone

wait, it's not a major 7, it's a b7, isn't it? cuz this scale works over dominant altered chords, so it should be a dom7, shouldnt it? so theoretically, you could spell it 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7 or in terms of extensions, 1 b9 #9 3 #11 #5 b7...? because the point is that in theory it should cover dominant7th chords with added and altered 9s and 5s. you could even call the b7 a #6 or #13, though b7 is easier i think... anyway,

could someone spell out the half-whole and whole-half diminished scales, and how do you use them? because i've been playing 1 b3 b5 bb6 over diminished chords, as i was told that that is the "diminished scale"--but it's really just a dim7 arpeggio, though... what chords correlate with halfwhole and whole half?
#14
Quote by Deubener-PL
ooo i see yea the tetrachords are diminished and whole tone

tetrachords? you mean like how you move up a dim chord a minor 3rd and it's the same chord, just inverted, and the same for augmented chords and major thirds? is that right? does it also apply to dim7 chords and aug7 chords (the moving up to invert)?
#15
Quote by Dan Steinman
wait, it's not a major 7, it's a b7, isn't it? cuz this scale works over dominant altered chords, so it should be a dom7, shouldnt it? so theoretically, you could spell it 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7 or in terms of extensions, 1 b9 #9 3 #11 #5 b7...? because the point is that in theory it should cover dominant7th chords with added and altered 9s and 5s. you could even call the b7 a #6 or #13, though b7 is easier i think... anyway,

could someone spell out the half-whole and whole-half diminished scales, and how do you use them? because i've been playing 1 b3 b5 bb6 over diminished chords, as i was told that that is the "diminished scale"--but it's really just a dim7 arpeggio, though... what chords correlate with halfwhole and whole half?


It should be a b7.

WH and HW scales are diminished chords either 1/2 or 1 whole step apart.

Someone else deal with with the sepllings and uses.
#16
Quote by dansteinman
wait, it's not a major 7, it's a b7, isn't it?


ah yea you're right, I hate how we notate things,

when you want a maj7 in a chord you have to say something, as if you put the regular 7 it's a dom7.

and then it's completely ass backwards for writing scale degrees.

yea, it's a b7
#17
b9's can only be used with the HW diminished scale.
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#19
Quote by scheck006
why is there more than 1 diminished scale if they're exactly the same?
They aren't exactly the same. It's kind of like a mode thing: F WH is the second mode of E HW.
#20
Quote by Dan Steinman
tetrachords? you mean like how you move up a dim chord a minor 3rd and it's the same chord, just inverted, and the same for augmented chords and major thirds? is that right? does it also apply to dim7 chords and aug7 chords (the moving up to invert)?



for the diminished w-h it starts off with its tonic chord as of course..diminished and for the h-w its tonic chord would be the dom7(b9)

but lets say you wanna move to the second note of the w-h then that tonic chord would become dominant

so basically all the 8-note scales link together and there tonic chord switches off depending on what you start on

for w-h the root note chord is dim. and then second note of that scales chord is dom and then dim. and then dom. etc. etc.

for the h-w the root note chord is dom. and then second note dim. and then dom. and then dim. etc. etc.

so basically with the w-h and h-w 8 note scales you can link them all together and use them as technically modes and because of the symmetry of w-h and h-w the tonic chords switch off eveytime making them very useful to use together


ahh i love symmetry..and those scales..a little too much

ohh sorry i got off topic from the quote haha

tetrachords is pretty much the scale in two halfs making it easier to memorize

so for the altered scale its first tetra schords is minor
and its second tetrachord is wholetone(all full steps)
dont let tetrachords confuse because they are pretty much used as memorization
#21
Quote by bangoodcharlote
They aren't exactly the same. It's kind of like a mode thing: F WH is the second mode of E HW.


I know, that's really my entire point.