#1
I remember hearing something about it before, but the vh1 thing on sabbath re-sparked my interest. Can someone educated help me to understand this "devil's 3rd" that got banned by the church, it's applications in music and music theory, etc, etc. All I know right now is that playing the black sabbath riff when I warm up sounds really cool and the idea that I'm conjuring the devil does kinda make me play better... but seriously, what's the deal behind the "devil's 3rd" ?






:stickpoke:
#4
There are interwalls between notes C to G thats an dominant for exampel(atleast in sweden)

The interwalls are 1...2...3...4....5....6....7...8
..........................C...D...E...F...G...A...B...C

2,3,6,7 are interwalls that can be lowerd or raised.

1,4,5,8 are what you call cleans, these you cant lower or raise.

so now, to make this ass clear as possible you should go to a piano.

do the interwall from C to F(forth) thats a clean note, so is the G(fifth) but now, if you have played both these two interwalls you will se there is one note between the F and G the F# since forths and fiths cant be raised or lowered, that note,F#, cant be "reached" it has no name, and if you play it it will sound as evil as anytng can get :P thats the "devils thing" :P "devils interwall" is the best name I think :P hope you understand
Last edited by backtothe70s at Jun 17, 2006,
#5
Quote by backtothe70s
forths and fiths cant be raised or lowered, that note,F#, cant be "reached" it has no name


Of course it has a name. You can call the note either F# or Gb. It's an interval of a augmented 4th (#4) or a diminished 5th (b5).
#6
now I understand why chicks panties get wet under certain musical conditions... cool.






:stickpoke:
#9
That's a really interesting article
WHY IS EVERYONE IN THE PIT A FUCKING METALCORE KID
#10
The devils interval, or tritone is one of the driving forces in western music. It was forbidden in Gregorian chant and even through the Baroque and into the Classical era one does not hear it often used melodically. Prior to the Baroque era, music "proper" was "harmonized" mainly with octaves and 5ths, and eventually 6ths and 3rds, all considered consonant intervals. I put harmonized in quotes because doubling a voice at the 5th or octave is hardly any real harmonization.

However, harmonically, going back to the Baroque and onward, it is a different story. Without the tritone, the "dominant effect" would not be possible, not at least in the way it has been employed over the last 400 years.

In any major or minor key, you employ a V7 (or variant there of) to create tension that begs to be resolved by the I chord. Keeping it simple, let's look at G7 to C. G7 employs the tritone B to F. B to F resolves to the major 3rd C to E. BF to CE makes a nice V7 I cadence. The B and F, being the two most important notes in the V7 chord, are heard as G7, even when the 3rd and 5th of the G7 are not present, it's 3rd and 7th, the BF, imply dominant tonality.

The tritone, on top of setting up the tension of an unstable and dissonant interval, sets us up for resolution by half step in two voices to the tonic. Half step resolution as smooth and strong. B resolves to C and F to E. On top of all that, the resolution sets up perfect contrary motion between the voices; a must in counterpoint music (such as most Baroque music).

Bach, the preeminent composer of the Baroque era, used the tritone in this way in every single work that he ever wrote. Bach was primarily a church musicain, so it is cool and ironic to find him being among the first generation to grasp the power of the devils interval and unleash it upon the world where it would dominate harmony for over 400 years!!!! You will not find a Baroque work in which tritones were not used to this effect. Nor will you hear a Classical, Romantic or even modern work that is void of tritones, unless written employing some non standard harmonic system (and their are a few such as serialism or quartal harmony) . Tritones are in use in this fashion to this day.

Another cool thing about tritones is that there are only a few of them the exist, so each has to pull double duty in another key. The B to F that we have been discussing is also working as F to Cb in the key of Gb. If one ever wanted to stroll from the key of C to the key of Gb, the tritone can show you the way. If that is not enough, the tritone is also borrowed by the parallel minor key to set up caences, because the minor V heas no tritone. So instead of seeing Em7-Am in a cadence, we would see E7 to Am. This need to give the minor V a tritone is the origin of the Harmonic Minor scale. The need to correct the melodic tritone created when building melodies from the harmonic minor scale resulted in the birth of the Melodic Minor scale, in which both the 6th and 7th are raised, thus filling the augmented 2nd gap created by raising the 7 in Harmonic Minor.

There is also the popular practice of tritone substitution. To basically any dominant chord may be replaced by the dominant chord a tritone from it's root. In the key of C, this would make Dm7-G7-C6 into Dm7-Db7-C6. You get a nice descending chromatic bassline outta the deal with the second one.

So you see, a single interval holds the key to the energy which fuels our entire harmonic system. Perhaps for that reason alone it should be called the devils interval.

For more detailed info on using triads, click below:
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=378517
Last edited by spaivxx at Jun 18, 2006,
#11
Quote by viciodk
Of course it has a name. You can call the note either F# or Gb. It's an interval of a augmented 4th (#4) or a diminished 5th (b5).


I dident mean it dident have a name for a note.

It dont have a name name as an interwall more than "devils third" the interwall between C and F# dont have a name more than this devils third. al other interwalls got name after the distance between them, C-D, second, C-E third....

understand what I mean?
#12
i would have thought it would have been a diminished 7th (or just a diminished triad) due to that theyre built on minor thirds and have a very dissonant sound

eg:

A-C-Eb-Gb
Originally posted by greatdevourer
Dear Relationships Thread,
I am so sorry I've neglected you and have been so blind.
God_luvs_a_trya
#14
Quote by backtothe70s
It dont have a name name as an interwall.....


Why do you consistently spell it as "interwall"?

Its slightly melodramatic to refer to it as a "devils 3rd" and even more to not use it in music. But then again, the Middle Ages were messed with in terms of religeon crap.

Quote by Robbie n strat
In the changing rooms we'd all jump around so our dicks and balls bounced all over the place, which we found hilarious.



Little children should be felt, not heard.
#15
i thought it was the diminished seventh... its got the same story with being banned from the church and such...
#16
Quote by xrawrockkillsx
i thought it was the diminished seventh... its got the same story with being banned from the church and such...


isnt the b7 just a seventh chord?

as in like G7, C7 etc? which is used almost as much as major and minor chords in church music?

i always thought/knew it was the b5.
#17
It is the flat 5. I do not know where the thread starter got "devils 3rd" from. Perhaps the word "tritone" led him to assume 3rd......

The b7 from dominant harmony forms a diminished 5th from the 3rd of any dominant 7 chord.
#18
Quote by spaivxx
The b7 from dominant harmony forms a diminished 5th from the 3rd of any dominant 7 chord.
To elaborate on this, look at a C7 chord. It is C E G Bb, 1 3 5 b7. E to Bb is a tritone.
#19
Quote by notoriousnumber
Why do you consistently spell it as "interwall"?

Its slightly melodramatic to refer to it as a "devils 3rd" and even more to not use it in music. But then again, the Middle Ages were messed with in terms of religeon crap.



I dont know how its speled, its hard to get the words right from swedish to english :P remember that we are the only ones who say H instead of B I dont but anyway
#21
Quote by mangablade
isnt the b7 just a seventh chord?

as in like G7, C7 etc? which is used almost as much as major and minor chords in church music?

i always thought/knew it was the b5.


A diminished 7 is a flat below the m7, or one half stap below the "b7".
Quote by casualty01
the RIAA can't shut us down, interpol can't shut us down. the U.S. gov't can't shut us down and CERTAINLY not YOU can shut us down.


BA in Music theory
MusicMan Bongo, SUB -> Orange Terror 1000 stack

Quote by waterproofpie
it's a UtBDan sandwich. Awwww yeah!
#22
Quote by UtBDan
A diminished 7 is a flat below the m7, or one half stap below the "b7".


oh my bad.

well basically thats a 6th then, eh? that dosnt sound too dissonant to me... unless paired with a b5 or something i guess.
#23
The easiest way to explain it to most people in a method that they can try out on a standard tuned guitar instantly, starting on any string except B (if you don't know why, never mind I'm not explaining it now, just don't try it starting on B as it won't work).

1. Start on any fret, any string except B, play the note you're fretting.

2. whilst continuing to fret this note, fret the note 1 fret and 1 string higher (higher in sound, as in if you started on 5th fret G string, the new note to fret would be 6th fret B string).

3. Play both notes at once. Viola, a flattened 5th (b5), also called a tritone or Devils 3rd (so called because you go up 3 full tones from the first note you play to get to it).
Iron Maiden!!

My Band (Dryad) Website

He's walking, like a small child, but watch his eyes, burn you away..

In These Silences Something May Rise
#24
Quote by mangablade
oh my bad.

well basically thats a 6th then, eh? that dosnt sound too dissonant to me... unless paired with a b5 or something i guess.


the usage is different. If you pair the 6th with a root 3rd and 5th, its actually a m7 chord based on the 6th.


if you match a diminished 7th with a root, minor third, and diminished 5th, you basically have an incredibly large amount of... uh,... diminishim.
Quote by casualty01
the RIAA can't shut us down, interpol can't shut us down. the U.S. gov't can't shut us down and CERTAINLY not YOU can shut us down.


BA in Music theory
MusicMan Bongo, SUB -> Orange Terror 1000 stack

Quote by waterproofpie
it's a UtBDan sandwich. Awwww yeah!
#25
Quote by UtBDan
an incredibly large amount of... uh,... diminishim.


Is little ol' Dan making up words again ?

jokes, i get ya.
#26
wow this is interesting... does anyone have the mp3 to devil's trill sonata?? it seems that the devil himself played it on violin in a dream for a guy so i wanna hear it cuz im curious does anyone have it??
#28
Quote by spaivxx
It is the flat 5. I do not know where the thread starter got "devils 3rd" from.
Three whole tones above the root and three whole tones below the octave?
Si
#29
the usage is different. If you pair the 6th with a root 3rd and 5th, its actually a m7 chord based on the 6th.


...or a 6th chord.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#30
Quote by metalmania310
can anyone give me an example of the devil's thrid/interval?

Please don't resurrect two and a half year old threads.

*reported*
#32
Quote by 20Tigers
I didn't even notice haha. At least he's using the searchbar.


Ahh, one of the paradoxes of UG. Make a new thread about an overdone topic, and get flamed for not using the search bar. Use an existing thread, and get flamed for bumping it.
#33
Wow, I never knew about that. I've always loved the that "diminished" sound and always mess around with whatever kind of intervals they're called... don't know. (I'm a real beginner at theory)

At first I didn't know what the thread was talking about, I click on that article and it says C + F#.... and I'm in C standard, so I hit open on the top string and fret the first fret on the A string (F#)

...First time it sounded so incredibly creepy and evil.
#34
Quote by which ones pink
Ahh, one of the paradoxes of UG. Make a new thread about an overdone topic, and get flamed for not using the search bar. Use an existing thread, and get flamed for bumping it.


Bingo.

I just want peace, man...