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#1
OK, so say my guitarist is playing a I IV V progression in C. So C, F, G. As he moves from chord to chord, do i just move my bassline to the root and play the same pattern? or does the pattern of my bassline change because i am in a different mode?

thanks as ever
#2
You could do either. It kind of depends on what your bassline is.

For example, if you were playing something like this?
G|-------------|
D|-------------|
A|---3-----7p3-|
E|-3---3/7-----|

   5 1 5 7 3 1

Then some things would change rather than just moving it. The numbers below the tab represent the intervals in relation to the root note, C. All of the notes are within the C major scale (C D E F G A B C).

Now, let's say you change to the F chord.
G|-------------|
D|---3-----7p3-|
A|-3---3/7-----|
E|-------------|

   5 1 5 7 3 1

Same intervallic pattern, only with a root of F. The notes again fit in the key of C.

Now G. Keeping with the same pattern of intervals, we get
G|-------------|
D|---5-----9p5-|
A|-5---5/9-----|
E|-------------|

   5 1 5 7 3 1
However, this presents a problem - not all the notes are in the key of C! The F# on the A string is not in the key of C

The most common thing to change it to would be
G|--------------|
D|---5------9p5-|
A|-5---5/8------|
E|--------------|

   5 1 5 b7 3 1

Now all the notes fit into C major. You should note that G is the 5th of C; therefore the corresponding mode to the G chord would be the Mixolydian mode. And the Mixolydian mode has intervals of 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 1!

Now, it's not imperative that you do change it to fit the key. Throwing in an F# (also known as Gb) in the key of C - a b5 tone - wouldn't sound too out of place, especially when used as a passing tone. In fact, if your guitarist is using the C blues scale it may help to accentuate that specific passing tone.

Any questions?

-C_Fluff
#3
Quote by Casmin_Fluffer
You could do either. It kind of depends on what your bassline is.

For example, if you were playing something like this?
G|-------------|
D|-------------|
A|---3-----7p3-|
E|-3---3/7-----|

5 1 5 7 3 1

Then some things would change rather than just moving it. The numbers below the tab represent the intervals in relation to the root note, C. All of the notes are within the C major scale (C D E F G A B C).

Now, let's say you change to the F chord.
G|-------------|
D|---3-----7p3-|
A|-3---3/7-----|
E|-------------|

5 1 5 7 3 1

Same intervallic pattern, only with a root of F. The notes again fit in the key of C.

Now G. Keeping with the same pattern of intervals, we get
G|-------------|
D|---5-----9p5-|
A|-5---5/9-----|
E|-------------|

5 1 5 7 3 1
However, this presents a problem - not all the notes are in the key of C! The F# on the A string is not in the key of C

The most common thing to change it to would be
G|--------------|
D|---5------9p5-|
A|-5---5/8------|
E|--------------|

5 1 5 b7 3 1

Now all the notes fit into C major. You should note that G is the 5th of C; therefore the corresponding mode to the G chord would be the Mixolydian mode. And the Mixolydian mode has intervals of 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 1!

Now, it's not imperative that you do change it to fit the key. Throwing in an F# (also known as Gb) in the key of C - a b5 tone - wouldn't sound too out of place, especially when used as a passing tone. In fact, if your guitarist is using the C blues scale it may help to accentuate that specific passing tone.

Any questions?

-C_Fluff



thanks man, that was helpful..
#4
Hi Casmin, thanks for the reply. A few questions, yes..

From what i take from that, are you saying you dont have to change the pattern you are playing unless there is a note which doesn't belong in the scale? but only if it doesnt sound good? because it's chromatic at the very least, could i use it as a passing tone perhaps?

How is this done on the fly? I mean, if my guitarist says "hey play this progression", am i expected know each note in the chord he is playing so i can make my bassline? That's not too hard, because i can use the pentatoni, say to create my bassline. but then to move to the next chord, it seems i need to work out whether my pattern will now fit or not, and adjust accordingly?

If i just stay on the same bassline with C as my root, it will still be in key of course.. so what is the point of changing to the different modes? Just to change the feel?

Thanks, really trying to get my head around this..
#5
holy mackerel! is this the first time SD's posted in the bass forum or WHAT!?

*ends lame "stickin around" quote*

(by SD i mean CF, the artist formerly known as SD )

Applehead: the point of changin the line is to
A) drive the band in a new direction when it needs to (ie. every chord change / couple of chord changes)
B) spice up the background
C) just be less boring than Root of the Chord/Key the whole song.
#6
cheers manga, have you got an example of a song where it's obvious the bassist is changing modes? i am sure there are many in songs i know, but still not sure exactly waht to look for. Just the bassline following the chord progression instead of staying in the root of the key? cause thats what i do generally for verses...
#7
hold on ill try to find one where its pretty obvious....

tho they are very common.

EDIT:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LlFC70EFBQQ&search=billie%20jean

i believe in the verse, its F# Dorian (relative to E major), and then when you hear the change, it goes to B Myxolydian.

it just so happens, tho, that the bassline is the same over both chords, just change the root note from F# to B, which also happens to be the same things minus one note, a string higher (or lower, depends what way you say it. i say higher i think im one of the few)

sry that i didnt get a better example, but:

you can see how the feeling of the whole song is changed by that chord change, and the emphasis on the B.
Last edited by mangablade at Jun 22, 2006,
#8
lets just say i was playing a simple root, 3rd, 5th bassline to 12 bar blues, as i change with the chords, thats changing modes right?
#9
Quote by Applehead
lets just say i was playing a simple root, 3rd, 5th bassline to 12 bar blues, as i change with the chords, thats changing modes right?


well, it makes a big difference what chords your guitarist is playing as well, if he's playing that chord progression using a single key, you would change your modes, if he's just playing them all major or all minor or things like that, then you would be in a different key for each chord, and at that point, your better of sticking to a pattern.
Quote by Mr. T
"Mr. T defines love as the reluctance to murder. If you're still alive, it's because Mr. T loves you."
#10
^ well since youre using the blues scale (im assuming), you could "say" its changing modes, but technically there arent any modes of the blues scale.

if your playing a G blues, just think of the blues scale pattern on the 3rd fret Low E.

use that pattern for when youve got your "I" chords.

when you move to the "IV" chords, keep the pattern at the G, dont the shape up to the C,

you could think of it as the "blues IV mode", where its basically " 1, b2, 2 , 4, 5, b7, octave", but thats just confusing. just keep the picture of the G blues scale pattern in your head at all times in that song (unless there is an actual KEY change, not chord change), and just know which note to emphasize (the chord's root, or maybe another note if you're going for a different feel, but for simplicity lets say root).
#13
sorry that was to peanutman. i'm with you until you started with the intervals.. how are they relevant?
#14
Quote by mangablade
^ well since youre using the blues scale (im assuming), you could "say" its changing modes, but technically there arent any modes of the blues scale.

if your playing a G blues, just think of the blues scale pattern on the 3rd fret Low E.

use that pattern for when youve got your "I" chords.

when you move to the "IV" chords, keep the pattern at the G, dont the shape up to the C,

you could think of it as the "blues IV mode", where its basically " 1, b2, 2 , 4, 5, b7, octave", but thats just confusing. just keep the picture of the G blues scale pattern in your head at all times in that song (unless there is an actual KEY change, not chord change), and just know which note to emphasize (the chord's root, or maybe another note if you're going for a different feel, but for simplicity lets say root).


well, the blues scale isnt even technically a scale, it only has 7 notes. and there wouldnt be modes of a blues scale, modes are scales of a key. technically, there are only 7 notes in every key, just in different places. you have to learn modes as a part of a key, not as individual scales, or you'll be lost.
Quote by Mr. T
"Mr. T defines love as the reluctance to murder. If you're still alive, it's because Mr. T loves you."
#15
well with me bringin up the " 1, b2, 2 , 4, 5, b7, octave", it is confusing, thats why im saying its probly better not to use that.
#16
Quote by Applehead
sorry that was to peanutman. i'm with you until you started with the intervals.. how are they relevant?


what intervals be you refering to? i dont think i mentioned intervals.
Quote by Mr. T
"Mr. T defines love as the reluctance to murder. If you're still alive, it's because Mr. T loves you."
#17
na, manga did in his post. confused me a bit. so, i know the first mode, the major scale. next to learn is D Dorian, correct? So, what is the fingering patter? or does it not work like that?
#18
Quote by Applehead
na, manga did in his post. confused me a bit. so, i know the first mode, the major scale. next to learn is D Dorian, correct? So, what is the fingering patter? or does it not work like that?


well, your modes go as follows

Ionian:regular major
Dorian:minor raised 6th
Phryjen:minor lowered 2ed
lydian:major lowered 4th
mixolydian:dominant scale, major with raised 7th
Aeolian:regular minor
locrian:diminished, minor with lowered 2end and 5th

lower and raise notes by half steps only, and if you play a scale, like c, you'll find that you play only 7 notes, a b c d e f and g the entire time. thats your key. those are your modes. enjoy.
Quote by Mr. T
"Mr. T defines love as the reluctance to murder. If you're still alive, it's because Mr. T loves you."
#19
i was goint to point u towards the mode thread i was in in musician talk, but ur already there lol.

just work out the notes of a C major scale and its modes

then find out the fingerings that are most comfortable for you.
#20
ok it's sinking in slowly... muchos gracias.. woud still like to hear an example if anyone can think of one..
#21
Hey bud, ill give you teh fingerings of the shapes of each mode of what i use. you might or might not want to change the fingerings, but this is what i'd use.

NOTE: im not gonna list All the names for them because, tbh, i forget them, im just gonna list the number, as in which note of the major scale it starts on, and which mode i remember

major (ionian) 1st


-------------------
--------------2-4-5---
------2-3-5-----------
-3-5-----------------


2nd (dorian)


-------------------
--------------4-5-7---
------3-5-7-----------
-5-7-----------------


3rd (phrygian)


-------------------
-------------------7-9
----------7-9-10-------
-7-8-10----------------


4th (lydian)


-------------------
----------------7-9-10-
-------7-9-10----------
-8-10-----------------


5th (myxolydian)


-------------------
--------------------9-10-12
---------9-10-12--------
-10-12-----------------


6th (minor/aeolian)


-------------------
-------------------------12-14
-------------12-14-15----
-12-14-15----------------


7th (diminished/locrian)


-------------------
-------------------------14-16
-------------14-15-17----
-14-15-17----------------
Last edited by mangablade at Jun 22, 2006,
#23
Quote by mangablade
Hey bud, ill give you teh fingerings of the shapes of each mode of what i use. you might or might not want to change the fingerings, but this is what i'd use.

major (1st) NOTE: im not gonna list All the names for them because, tbh, i forget them, im just gonna list the number, as in which note of the major scale it starts on, and which mode i remember


-------------------
--------------2-4-5---
------2-3-5-----------
-3-5-----------------


2nd (dorian i think)


-------------------
--------------4-5-7---
------3-5-7-----------
-5-7-----------------


3rd (phrygian)


-------------------
-------------------7-9
----------7-9-10-------
-7-8-10----------------


4th (almost major, but the 4th is sharp)


-------------------
----------------7-9-10-
-------7-9-10----------
-8-10-----------------


5th (myxolydian)


-------------------
--------------------9-10-12
---------9-10-12--------
-10-12-----------------


6th (minor/aeolian)


-------------------
-------------------------12-14
-------------12-14-15----
-12-14-15----------------


7th (diminished, dont kno the real name)


-------------------
-------------------------14-16
-------------14-15-17----
-14-15-17----------------


pretty close manga, but your dorian is wrong. its a minor chord, not a major chord. for future refernce, its way easier to tab out a c major scale.
Quote by Mr. T
"Mr. T defines love as the reluctance to murder. If you're still alive, it's because Mr. T loves you."
#24
Quote by crazypeanutman
pretty close manga, but your dorian is wrong. its a minor chord, not a major chord. for future refernce, its way easier to tab out a c major scale.


oh i see what happened, the title of the mode is ABOVE the diagram, and i forgot to put Major for the first one..

other than that it all lines up


EDIT: obviously ill just edit in the "major scale" title.
#25
His Dorian is fine?
Quote by crazypeanutman
well, the blues scale isnt even technically a scale, it only has 7 notes. and there wouldnt be modes of a blues scale, modes are scales of a key. technically, there are only 7 notes in every key, just in different places. you have to learn modes as a part of a key, not as individual scales, or you'll be lost.



The blues scale IS a scale, and you COULD create modes off of it if you wanted to.

Quote by crazypeanutman
well, your modes go as follows

Ionian:regular major
Dorian:minor raised 6th
Phryjen:minor lowered 2ed
lydian:major lowered 4th
mixolydian:dominant scale, major with raised 7th
Aeolian:regular minor
locrian:diminished, minor with lowered 2end and 5th

lower and raise notes by half steps only, and if you play a scale, like c, you'll find that you play only 7 notes, a b c d e f and g the entire time. thats your key. those are your modes. enjoy.

Your Lydian and Mixolydian are wrong. And for what it's worth, that's a crappy way to distinguish modes from one another.

Manga, the 7th mode is Locrian.

-C_Fluff
#26
^ thanks bud, and how would you about doing the "modes" of a blues scale, the way i described it?

and it dont think i'd need to use em anyway lol.

EDIT: the names good now??
#27
It's the same concept as modes of any other scale, you'd change the root note to a different note in the scale.

So the 2nd mode of the blues scale would be based off the b3 interval of the blues scale. Its intervals would be 1 2 b3 3 5 6 1.

The third mode would be based off the 4th of the blues scale, and would give 1 b2 2 4 5 b7 1.

etc.

-C_Fluff
#28
Quote by Casmin_Fluffer
His Dorian is fine?


Your Lydian and Mixolydian are wrong. And for what it's worth, that's a crappy way to distinguish modes from one another.

Manga, the 7th mode is Locrian.

-C_Fluff


how is it a crap way? i understood it fine when i learned it.
Quote by Mr. T
"Mr. T defines love as the reluctance to murder. If you're still alive, it's because Mr. T loves you."
#29
Quote by Casmin_Fluffer
It's the same concept as modes of any other scale, you'd change the root note to a different note in the scale.

So the 2nd mode of the blues scale would be based off the b3 interval of the blues scale. Its intervals would be 1 2 b3 3 5 6 1.

The third mode would be based off the 4th of the blues scale, and would give 1 b2 2 4 5 b7 1.

etc.

-C_Fluff


thats what i said: "blues IV mode, where its basically " 1, b2, 2 , 4, 5, b7, octave"

i just think even i was noodling around in the blues with the emphasis on a certain note, it would still resolve best at the blues scale root, or it would be just a real wierd sounding scale most of the time.
#30
Quote by mangablade
thats what i said: "blues IV mode, where its basically " 1, b2, 2 , 4, 5, b7, octave"

i just think even i was noodling around in the blues with the emphasis on a certain note, it would still resolve best at the blues scale root, or it would be just a real wierd sounding scale most of the time.


yea, blues scales are pretty easy to resolve down with. and i didnt mean it wasnt a scale, i just meant it wasnt a scale in the church mode sense of a key.
Quote by Mr. T
"Mr. T defines love as the reluctance to murder. If you're still alive, it's because Mr. T loves you."
#31
Quote by Casmin_Fluffer
His Dorian is fine?


i went back and checked, and your right, his dorians fine, but cut me some slack, that was one messed up looking minor scale as far as simple scale patterns go.
Quote by Mr. T
"Mr. T defines love as the reluctance to murder. If you're still alive, it's because Mr. T loves you."
#32
Quote by crazypeanutman
how is it a crap way? i understood it fine when i learned it.

Because it's confusing in that you're relating some scales to minor and some to major. Standard practice is to relate everything to the major scale. You wouldn't spell the major scale as 1 2 #3 4 5 #6 #7 1, now would you? That's its relation to the intervals of the minor scale!

But whatever works for you

-C_Fluff
#33
Quote by Casmin_Fluffer
Because it's confusing in that you're relating some scales to minor and some to major. Standard practice is to relate everything to the major scale. You wouldn't spell the major scale as 1 2 #3 4 5 #6 #7 1, now would you? That's its relation to the intervals of the minor scale!

But whatever works for you

-C_Fluff


well, using church modes, at least the ones i were refering to, some are based in the minor scale. when writing out your chords in a key, you use I ii iii IV V vi vii I

only your ionian, lydian, and mixolydians are related to the major scale.

maybe we're not using the same modes, i know that there are a couple different sets.
Quote by Mr. T
"Mr. T defines love as the reluctance to murder. If you're still alive, it's because Mr. T loves you."
#34
No, what I'm saying is that you should relate ALL intervals to the major scale. In the sense that Dorian is 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 1 in relation to the major scale, etc.

-C_Fluff
#35
Quote by Casmin_Fluffer
No, what I'm saying is that you should relate ALL intervals to the major scale. In the sense that Dorian is 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 1 in relation to the major scale, etc.

-C_Fluff


so youd even relate your aeolian intervals to a major scale? would you relate the scales in the minor keys to major scale intervals too then?
Quote by Mr. T
"Mr. T defines love as the reluctance to murder. If you're still alive, it's because Mr. T loves you."
#36
Quote by Casmin_Fluffer
No, what I'm saying is that you should relate ALL intervals to the major scale. In the sense that Dorian is 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 1 in relation to the major scale, etc.

-C_Fluff


yeahup.

tho peanut man, youre right that some modes are major, some minor, but when dealing wiht intervals, as CF says, its always in relation with the major. this just saves confusion.


EDIT:
Quote by crazypeanutman
so youd even relate your aeolian intervals to a major scale? would you relate the scales in the minor keys to major scale intervals too then?


the intervals, yes. just realize that most of the time you'll be writing " 1 2 b3" etc, MOSTLY with flats. off the top of my head, lydian is the only one with sharps, eh?
#37
Quote by crazypeanutman
so youd even relate your aeolian intervals to a major scale? would you relate the scales in the minor keys to major scale intervals too then?

Yes, common practice is to relate EVERYTHING to the major scale.

Yes, Lydian is the only one with a sharpened interval.

-C_Fluff
#38
well, i learned something today.
Quote by Mr. T
"Mr. T defines love as the reluctance to murder. If you're still alive, it's because Mr. T loves you."
#39
sorry to bring this back from a few weeks ago, but what are dorian, ionian, etc. scales,
#40
^In response to that...
They are modes. Basically, if you play a C major scale up, and hit all of those notes, you are playing in an Ionian mode. Then, if you start the scale on D and play all of those same notes, you are playing in a dorian mode. E=phrygian, F=lydian, etc. But each time you play, you are starting a note up and hitting all of the same pitches you were in the original scale.

Knowing your modes will help you move around the fretboard, and change the sound of the key you are in (major/minor/etc.), and the location of the key you are in.


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