#1
I know I saw this somewhere on the site before, but I searched the lessons and forums and couldn't find anything.

Anyway, if the order or chords for major scales are:
Major Minor Minor Major Major Minor Dimished Major, correct?

So in C major that would be:

Cmaj
Dmin
Emin
Fmaj
Gmaj
Amin
Bdim

So does that mean in a minor scale, the order of chords would be:

Minor Diminished Major Minor Minor Major Major Minor?

Thanks

-KR
#3
almost:
If your building a chord progression off the minor scale (Aeolian mode) you need to incorporate the flats from the aeolian modes intervals into your chord progression:

Minor -> Diminished -> Flat Major -> Minor -> Minor -> Flat Major -> Flat Major

Or more commonly wrote as:

i  ii°  bIII  iv  v  bVI  bVII
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#4
Quote by Logz
almost:
If your building a chord progression off the minor scale (Aeolian mode) you need to incorporate the flats from the aeolian modes intervals into your chord progression:

Minor -> Diminished -> Flat Major -> Minor -> Minor -> Flat Major -> Flat Major

Or more commonly wrote as:

i ii° bIII iv v bVI bVII
While what Logz says here is technically correct, kirbyrocknroll, this explanation has the potential to be more confusing than helpful. Do you understand what Logz is saying here? If you don't, and until you do understand his reply, feel free to use what you posted to start this thread.

This hypothesis...
So does that mean in a minor scale, the order of chords would be:

Minor Diminished Major Minor Minor Major Major Minor?
...is true when naming the diatonic triads of a major tonality's relative minor scale.

In your example you used C major's relative minor, A minor. The diatonic triads we build on the major's relative minor don't need the inclusion of the flat symbol (b).

However, building these triads in the abstract you would want to include the b symbol. In other words, if you simply pulled the A natural minor scale out of the air and built diatonic triads on its tones (A B C D E F G), you would want to indicate that the major triad built on its third tone was the bIII.

This may be one of those "gpb is counting how many angels can dance on the head of a pin again" posts. If it seems that way, I apologize. The bottom line is, both you and Logz were correct, but I hoped to clarify why Logz corrected you.

OK, gpb over and out. Beam me up...
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- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
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#5
Quote by gpb0216
While what Logz says here is technically correct, kirbyrocknroll, this explanation has the potential to be more confusing than helpful. Do you understand what Logz is saying here?


I had explained it in more detail, but when I clicked post IE crashed
Been away, am back
#6
hey i made a thread like this a while ago....
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#7
gpb, perhaps you should explain why a C major scale should be used in a C, G chord shuffle rather than A minor...it would be very helpful in context with using the proper scale to a chord progression
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#8
Quote by axe_grinder247
gpb, perhaps you should explain why a C major scale should be used in a C, G chord shuffle rather than A minor...it would be very helpful in context with using the proper scale to a chord progression
Did you mean to post that here?
#9
basically, C major (aka C ionian) has the exact same notes as A minor (aka A aeolian)

so if you play a solo using these set of notes (c d e f g a b c) over a progression using the chords from this key (C Dm Em F G Am Bm(flat 5), where the tonic is C, you are playing in C major...

BUT if you play a solo using these notes over another progression, once again using chords from this key,, but the tonic is A, you are playing in A minor...

thats my attempt to explain it...sorry if it doesnt make that much sense,
im sure somebody else will help explain it better if u have trouble...
Last edited by quinny1089 at Jul 1, 2006,
#10
it would fit in that thread but since gpb was here, and he does know an awful lot about the subject, i decided to post here
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#11
Quote by gpb0216

In your example you used C major's relative minor, A minor. The diatonic triads we build on the major's relative minor don't need the inclusion of the flat symbol (b).

However, building these triads in the abstract you would want to include the b symbol. In other words, if you simply pulled the A natural minor scale out of the air and built diatonic triads on its tones (A B C D E F G), you would want to indicate that the major triad built on its third tone was the bIII.


I'm not quite sure that I understand this part.

So what you mean is if you use a relative minor scale you wouldn't need the flat symbol, but if you are just building the diatonic triads of a natural minor scale, you do need the flat symbol?

In that case, wouldn't it be more practical to not use the flat symbols?

So you mean if I was using A Aeolian mode, Which is the relative minor of C major, I wouldn't use a flat symbol, but if I was just trying to find the diatonic triads of A Aeolian, it would be technically correct to include the flat symbols?

And thanks for all the replies everyone


-KR
#12
Quote by kirbyrocknroll
I'm not quite sure that I understand this part. So what you mean is if you use a relative minor scale you wouldn't need the flat symbol, but if you are just building the diatonic triads of a natural minor scale, you do need the flat symbol?
I knew as I was writing the original post that this was probably going to get out of control. This is really just a context issue, and it's really starting to feel more and more like I'm splitting hairs. Anyway, within the context of your original question, (I think) we all understood that you were talking about the relative major / minor relationship (C major / A minor, in this case). In that context, we don't usually think of the natural minor / Aeolian mode as having a "life" outside its relationship to the relative major. That being the case, it's not necessary to use bIII because we're still indicating the quality of the diatonic triads arising from the C major tonality. In other words, we've simply re-numbered the triads based on their starting point, A then becoming i, B becoming ii0, etc.

In that case, wouldn't it be more practical to not use the flat symbols?
Not really. Logz had a good point, as it can be useful to differentiate between the case described above and the case in which we're actually building and naming the diatonic triads based on the A minor tonality. It's a subtle point, and possibly far more trouble than it's worth.

So you mean if I was using A Aeolian mode, which is the relative minor of C major, I wouldn't use a flat symbol, but if I was just trying to find the diatonic triads of A Aeolian, it would be technically correct to include the flat symbols?
You're so close. Substitute minor for the second Aeolian and you've nailed it.

But again, I should never even have brought this up. I don't think you can really hurt anything by either using or not using the b symbol, as what truly counts is the identification of the position and quality of the triad within the tonality.
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#13
Quote by axe_grinder247
gpb, perhaps you should explain why a C major scale should be used in a C, G chord shuffle rather than A minor...it would be very helpful in context with using the proper scale to a chord progression
I read this thread. It's hard for me to imagine this being in anything other than C, and it's next to impossible for me to think of this riff as having anything to do with A minor. For what it's worth, here's my reasoning...
1. The riff begins with as definitive a C major chord as you're ever likely to hear.
2. The riff then moves immediately to a G major chord, the V chord in C. A V chord tends to carry us right back to the I chord, a C in this case.
3. There's not an A minor chord anywhere. There's not so much as even the hint of a minor tonality.

This seems pretty straightforward to me. Am I missing something?
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
#15
Quote by gpb0216
I read this thread. It's hard for me to imagine this being in anything other than C, and it's next to impossible for me to think of this riff as having anything to do with A minor. For what it's worth, here's my reasoning...
1. The riff begins with as definitive a C major chord as you're ever likely to hear.
2. The riff then moves immediately to a G major chord, the V chord in C. A V chord tends to carry us right back to the I chord, a C in this case.
3. There's not an A minor chord anywhere. There's not so much as even the hint of a minor tonality.

This seems pretty straightforward to me. Am I missing something?


short, simple, straight to the point
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