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#81
No, you won't be able to do that, unless it is further stimulated.

Hence why I say it barely makes a difference.
He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt.
He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice.


Remember: A prudent question is one half of wisdom.

Click.
#83
Look. Genetics influences everything about a person. People are born with more potential to be intelligent and have good hand-eye coordination for example. Intelligent people can be very intelligent. Very intelligent people can, if they work hard, be brilliant at music. Their musical talent WAS partially genetically determined because they were born with a great deal of POTENTIAL. But, they clearly had to work at it to realise the potential they were born with. The argument that we all have the same potential is total ****.

So, in short: Someone might be born with potential. They might realise it or they might not (depending on upbringing, hard work etc.). If someone is downright dumb, they will not do it. People deemed genii are at the high end of potential and have worked hard. There will be people with slightly less potential who worked slightly less hard who aren't deemed genii, and people with slightly less potential still and so on until you get down to the dumb and lazy guy who's at the bottom.
#84
Quote by suffer some
Look. Genetics influences everything about a person. People are born with more potential to be intelligent and have good hand-eye coordination for example. Intelligent people can be very intelligent. Very intelligent people can, if they work hard, be brilliant at music. Their musical talent WAS partially genetically determined because they were born with a great deal of POTENTIAL. But, they clearly had to work at it to realise the potential they were born with. The argument that we all have the same potential is total ****.

So, in short: Someone might be born with potential. They might realise it or they might not (depending on upbringing, hard work etc.). If someone is downright dumb, they will not do it. People deemed genii are at the high end of potential and have worked hard. There will be people with slightly less potential who worked slightly less hard who aren't deemed genii, and people with slightly less potential still and so on until you get down to the dumb and lazy guy who's at the bottom.


So maybe someone with a higher intelligence learns faster than the normal person, that still doesn't mean they don't have the same potential. If the person of lower intelligence works more than the smarter person, they will be on par, the less smart of the two may even be more brilliant at music.

You have to consider that the "IQ" of a person does very little justice to their actual intelligence. There are so many different kinds of intelligence that it's hard to measure the overall. So, someone with a higher intelligence may be really slow in the areas of math and music yet great in the areas of, say, writing and drawing.
#85
yea but then you have to consider idiot savants, who if they put in the exact amount of work as another person, would be so far ahead, that you cant really say someone else could just work harder and do the same thing. some people just wont be able to do it.

also, 10% or something? of the human genome is unmapped, and is a mystery, etc. etc. so who knows, talent could be in there somewhere, and we also are arguing about something that we definately do not know enough about. im taking a stand on the hard work side however. i think that most people who seem to be naturally talented have just been exposed to things at an early age, or at some point in their life no one knows about. things can be overlooked. they might have heard lots of music while in the womb even. who knows.
#86
Quote by Glen'sHeroicAct
yea but then you have to consider idiot savants, who if they put in the exact amount of work as another person, would be so far ahead, that you cant really say someone else could just work harder and do the same thing. some people just wont be able to do it.

also, 10% or something? of the human genome is unmapped, and is a mystery, etc. etc. so who knows, talent could be in there somewhere, and we also are arguing about something that we definately do not know enough about. im taking a stand on the hard work side however. i think that most people who seem to be naturally talented have just been exposed to things at an early age, or at some point in their life no one knows about. things can be overlooked. they might have heard lots of music while in the womb even. who knows.


Right, right. There may be musically inclined idiot savants, but the talent is still very narrow. They could have absolute pitch and play the piano blind-folded and backwards but it might be hard for them to actually focus and become better to where they can apply it in something that counts.
#87
Quote by tubab0y
are you just being a defeatist to make yourself sound good and/or continue the life of this thread? if so, you're doing a great job...

you have to be born with some talent. for example, i'm on my high school's varsity cross country team as a sophomore. we have the best team in the state, for the last 20467295872 years. how did i do it? my dad and my grandpa both ran cross country. my sister is fast. it has to be genetic to some point...


i hope you know that physical traits such as leg strength and ability to run are not genetic
Quote by BigFatSandwich
it took you 15 consecutive hours of practice to realize that playing guitar makes you better at playing guitar. congratulations.


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#88
they are to an extent, as he said. Sure if all he did was eat from ages 3-15 and he never ran, he would never be that good of a runner. However I could run all I wanted and I would only get so athletic, because my parents were not athletic and their parents were not. If I break the chain I suppose my children could, but the idea is:
genetics give you a frame
life is what you work within.


if you come from a family that is athletic, or musically talented, or verbose, or whatever, you are more likely to be athletic musical etc.
If you aren't, than you DO have to work harder to become it. Is it impossible? No. It's simply harder. Genetics give you the frames of your body and mind and life, and you work within it.


I've never seen science support anything other than that.
Quote by casualty01
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#89
Ok UTB that is quite a good way to put it, what with the frames, but I still dont believe that one is born with a certain skill.

You are not born with a skill for perfect pitch, its a pretty damn hard thing to do and not many can achieve it, but with enough practise you will gain it.

I cant be bothered to do this, who actually needs perfect pitch, but choristers at my school who regualarly practise about 3 or 4 hours everyday, who are devoted to their practises, do have perfect pitch. They may have been born with a liking to music and therefore have followed down this path to perfect pitch, but their skill was not inherited.

Quote by Robbie n strat
In the changing rooms we'd all jump around so our dicks and balls bounced all over the place, which we found hilarious.



Little children should be felt, not heard.
#90
exactly. but other, more physical traits can be inherited. such as long, limber fingers, or hand eye coordination. they are only another part of the frame of good guitar playing, but they give an advantage over someone who has to become more efficient with stubby fat fingers, and the hand eye coordination of a computer nerd.
#91
from newspaper article I saved:

Researchers call perfect pitch innate
4/30/2003

"Perfect pitch," sometimes called "absolute pitch" is the ability to recognize and name a musical tone without reference to any other note.

Musicians and scientists have long debated if this mysterious talent is inborn or a result of early musical training.

Now, a team of scientists led by a Yale researcher says they have settled the argument, using the first ever test ever devised to identify people with perfect pitch even if they have never laid eyes on a page of music or played a note.

In findings to be presented Thursday in Nashville Tenn., at a meeting of the Acoustical Society of America, David Ross, an M.D.-Ph.D. candidate at Yale's medical school, says, "We clearly have data that says true absolute pitch is independant of someone's musical training. These people are born with this skill."

(snip) article continues...
#92
I'm coming into this kind late, just skimmed thru previous responses, but there were a couple things that popped out at me:

1) that perfect pitch can be learned. see previous post.

2) that there's some relationship between perfect pitch and musical genius. I'm here to tell you people that I'm living proof it is not, I have perfect pitch, not even in my wildest dreams do I imagine myself a musical genius

here's a test online you can take to see if you have it
http://perfectpitch.ucsf.edu/ppstudy.html

I passed, but it was hard. They use synth tones, no overtones, not as organic as listening to a real instrument.

Many years ago back in music school I was told I had it. I've never found it be much use.

Relative pitch OTOH *can* be learned, and is very useful.

Here's a post from a veteran user at another forum which I absolutely agree with:

"Of all the great, amazing musicians I know, they all have impeccable relative pitch. Of the ones I've know with perfect pitch, some have been very good, while other have been total musical dunces. Relative pitch is vastly more useful and easier to train than perfect pitch."
#93
Quote by guitarviz
from newspaper article I saved:

Researchers call perfect pitch innate
4/30/2003

"Perfect pitch," sometimes called "absolute pitch" is the ability to recognize and name a musical tone without reference to any other note.

Musicians and scientists have long debated if this mysterious talent is inborn or a result of early musical training.

Now, a team of scientists led by a Yale researcher says they have settled the argument, using the first ever test ever devised to identify people with perfect pitch even if they have never laid eyes on a page of music or played a note.

In findings to be presented Thursday in Nashville Tenn., at a meeting of the Acoustical Society of America, David Ross, an M.D.-Ph.D. candidate at Yale's medical school, says, "We clearly have data that says true absolute pitch is independant of someone's musical training. These people are born with this skill."

(snip) article continues...


It's been proven, since then, that you can obtain absolute pitch recognition through correct training. Hell, there's even a class at Julliard specifically for learning absolute pitch. Just check perfectpitch.com, a number of scientists have claimed you can learn it.
Last edited by Ablazean at Jul 17, 2006,
#94
Quote by notoriousnumber
^......Thankyou for that.....(pissartist)

You certainly are born with interests and hobbies, which may lead to you practising things


uhm... definatly not.
Member #8 of the "Official UG Teabaggers' Cult". PM Slayer224 to join.
#95
Quote by Ablazean
It's been proven, since then, that you can obtain absolute pitch recognition through correct training. Hell, there's even a class at Julliard specifically for learning absolute pitch. Just check perfectpitch.com, a number of scientists have claimed you can learn it.


just saying that perfectpitch.com proves nothing... they're trying to sell you their course, not give you the facts via scientific research. It's just like hair loss.

"a number of scientists have claimed you can learn it"


=


"our scientists have discovered this new way to regrow hair!"
Quote by casualty01
the RIAA can't shut us down, interpol can't shut us down. the U.S. gov't can't shut us down and CERTAINLY not YOU can shut us down.


BA in Music theory
MusicMan Bongo, SUB -> Orange Terror 1000 stack

Quote by waterproofpie
it's a UtBDan sandwich. Awwww yeah!
#96
Quote by Ablazean
So maybe someone with a higher intelligence learns faster than the normal person, that still doesn't mean they don't have the same potential. If the person of lower intelligence works more than the smarter person, they will be on par, the less smart of the two may even be more brilliant at music.


people do not have the same potential at all, theres no evidence that says anything like this that i've ever seen. we're not talking about the general term intelligence. the kid in the article posted on the first page did not grow up around music, was never made to do anything. he simply knows how to create music innately. certainly if he was not even raised in any society he would not know what this sort of music even was, but the way he was created is that he is brilliant at music given that he is familiar with it.

like resiliance said, you are not born with hobbies and whatever. however, you could be born an athletic phenomenon and it's just not discovered until you try that particular sport. it's certainly a combination of genes and environment, but to say that it's only because of the persons actions once their born is technically true, but misleading. yes he's only a musical genius because he had the opportunity to play music. but the brain he was born with is what lets him be a genius, it just would have meant nothing if he didn't even know what classical music was.
"I see my light come shining from the west down to the east
Any day now, any day now I shall be released"

Know any good teachers in NY, especially skilled in teaching ear training? Tell me
#97
Does anybody here have sufficient knowledge on how genes and DNA work?

I'm not saying I do at all, but there has to be something that gives somebody talent etc. To be 'gifted' if you like. But whether that is a gene thing or a how your brain is wired up thing I don't know.

In hindsight I've just posted a pointless reply. Sorry.
#98
Quote by Cycon
uhm... definatly not.


Uhm....would you mind expanding your argument?

Quote by Robbie n strat
In the changing rooms we'd all jump around so our dicks and balls bounced all over the place, which we found hilarious.



Little children should be felt, not heard.
#99
Quote by sirpsycho85
people do not have the same potential at all, theres no evidence that says anything like this that i've ever seen. we're not talking about the general term intelligence. the kid in the article posted on the first page did not grow up around music, was never made to do anything. he simply knows how to create music innately. certainly if he was not even raised in any society he would not know what this sort of music even was, but the way he was created is that he is brilliant at music given that he is familiar with it.

like resiliance said, you are not born with hobbies and whatever. however, you could be born an athletic phenomenon and it's just not discovered until you try that particular sport. it's certainly a combination of genes and environment, but to say that it's only because of the persons actions once their born is technically true, but misleading. yes he's only a musical genius because he had the opportunity to play music. but the brain he was born with is what lets him be a genius, it just would have meant nothing if he didn't even know what classical music was.


http://www.brainconnection.com/topics/?main=fa/music-education2 <---Read number 3

This kid did grow up around music, if you google Jay Greenberg another page comes up that says his father was a successful pianist.

A born athletic phenomenon can not become amazing at a sport as soon as they are exposed to it. Mostly everyone has the same potential but there are a few little genetic differences such as a higher arched foot that will allow one to run faster (most people of African descent have this quality).

So It's probably the same for music, one cannot become briliant right away just because they hear music. There are many qualities such as total recall and perfect pitch (which I still believe can be learned), as well as a good sense of direction and form and the ability to learn quickly which go into the making of a musical genius.
#100
Quote by quinny1089
how do you, explain things like perfect pitch, its alot different to being a genius, but having such hearing abilities to recognise individual notes at an age of 4, and to be able to instantly sit down and play a those notes on a piano at that age...(like my aunty did)...obviously has some thing to do with whats in the genes

^^holly s**t!!! i'm a f**ckin genious! i used to do that piano thing when i was like 4 years old...
and then i neglected music until i was 17. f**kin idiot!
but now i've been playing guitar for almost a year. i'm back!
anyway, altough i could be better for how long i've been playing (i'm lazy), back when i started playing i noticed that i could easily get rhythym. i first tried to play knockin' on heaven's door (my very first song) and i got the correct strumming pattern instantly. and when i tried to teach my cousin, her strumming was terrible and i had to show her the strumming strum by strum.
so i guess there is some kind of potential and talent in some people that other don't have or have to try really hard to make it...
i guess each person has a talent for something, and geniouses are the ones that actually found which talent they have.
Last edited by 666_Belial at Jul 18, 2006,
#101
Quote by Ablazean
http://www.brainconnection.com/topics/?main=fa/music-education2 <---Read number 3

This kid did grow up around music, if you google Jay Greenberg another page comes up that says his father was a successful pianist.

A born athletic phenomenon can not become amazing at a sport as soon as they are exposed to it. Mostly everyone has the same potential but there are a few little genetic differences such as a higher arched foot that will allow one to run faster (most people of African descent have this quality).

So It's probably the same for music, one cannot become briliant right away just because they hear music. There are many qualities such as total recall and perfect pitch (which I still believe can be learned), as well as a good sense of direction and form and the ability to learn quickly which go into the making of a musical genius.



true, not right away, i just mean thru exposure to it, assuming they go on to practice it. but what i'm saying is that the talent is there, it just needs to be fostered for it to be discovered. but to say that all people have the same potential is not true. at some point you have physical limitations and you have mental limitations that you just cannot overcome.
"I see my light come shining from the west down to the east
Any day now, any day now I shall be released"

Know any good teachers in NY, especially skilled in teaching ear training? Tell me
#102
im pretty sure genetics has to do with something. it doesnt matter how long you practise, it all comes down to what makes you you. i know that if i practise twice as hard for the rest of my life, ill never be as good as SRV. there is obviously something that makes one person better than another.

i understand what you guys are saying about being able to develop these skills in music, but the fact is, you will still be limited by your genetics. end of story. are you saying that everyone eventually can write a symphony in their head perfectly like mozart? i think not.

me and my sister have been playing for about the same amount of time. i am alot better than here. she has had lessons, and i am self tought. she on one hand has a hard time understanding music, scales, keys, and other things so she just plays rhythm and just plays songs made buy other people. i on the other hand understand the music a lot more and am also able to solo well and make my own songs and riffs.

there has to be something else at work there than just pratice. we practice pretty much the same amount. so stop this argument. genetics affect everything you do. i am also into bodybuilding and the first thing you should know is that no matter how hard you train and how much you eat, the number one factor to building your physique is genetics. some peoples genetics dont allow them to be very large.

lets face it, some people are just born better and have a better understanding of how music works and therefore can compose and/or play better. genetics will also affect your personallity and that affects how you improvise and make songs.
#103
I'm not so sure musical "genius? can be compared with athletics where one is naturally endowed with legs that can outrun a horse as a result of genes. When it comes to music I am unable to exclude a more intangible element such as the spirit. Most, if not all musical geniuses, had powerful beliefs in the spiritual. Also the discussion seems to have quickly gone from ?genius? (those very rare anomalies) to those who are talented or have above average talent or have to work harder to achieve a certain level of ability.
If it can't withstand the heat of a billion suns then it's worthless
Electric Church
#104
Quote by Rockbysea
I'm not so sure musical "genius? can be compared with athletics where one is naturally endowed with legs that can outrun a horse as a result of genes. When it comes to music I am unable to exclude a more intangible element such as the spirit. Most, if not all musical geniuses, had powerful beliefs in the spiritual. Also the discussion seems to have quickly gone from ?genius? (those very rare anomalies) to those who are talented or have above average talent or have to work harder to achieve a certain level of ability.


Nice post. A genetic gift (or hinderance) is the result of a mutation. So if genetics were behind musical genius, it would be more common. At least there would be more "musical geniuses" in the world right now. It can't really be compared to athletics.
Last edited by Ablazean at Jul 18, 2006,
#105
Quote by Ablazean
Nice post. A genetic gift (or hinderance) is the result of a mutation. So if genetics were behind musical genius, it would be much less rare. At least there would be more "musical geniuses" in the world right now. It can't really be compared to athletics.


not really. genetic mutations are a lot more common then you probably think. if you have a different color hair than your parents, it's a genetic mutation. there are lots of little ones that are hard to notice. it may just not seem common because so many of them are small, as compared to being albino or something.
Quote by corduroyEW
Cheap amps are "that bad". They suck up your tone like cocaine at Kate Moss' party.


I am Michael!
#107
Quote by tubab0y
not really. genetic mutations are a lot more common then you probably think. if you have a different color hair than your parents, it's a genetic mutation. there are lots of little ones that are hard to notice. it may just not seem common because so many of them are small, as compared to being albino or something.


Sorry, I worded my post funky. I was actually saying that mutations are common. Therefore musical genius must not be a genetic thing because it is so rare. In the history of Western music I believe only four great composers have been reffered to as geniuses (Mozart, Medelsohn, Bach, and Schubert). Genius being the only word great enough to describe their level of talent.
#108
Quote by Ablazean
Sorry, I worded my post funky. I was actually saying that mutations are common. Therefore musical genius must not be a genetic thing because it is so rare. In the history of Western music I believe only four great composers have been reffered to as geniuses (Mozart, Medelsohn, Bach, and Schubert). Genius being the only word great enough to describe their level of talent.



Right on!!!
If it can't withstand the heat of a billion suns then it's worthless
Electric Church
#109
Quote by Ablazean
Sorry, I worded my post funky. I was actually saying that mutations are common. Therefore musical genius must not be a genetic thing because it is so rare. In the history of Western music I believe only four great composers have been reffered to as geniuses (Mozart, Medelsohn, Bach, and Schubert). Genius being the only word great enough to describe their level of talent.


Ever hear of a "Bell Curve"?

And btw, there are PLENTY of other people referred to as geniuses - whether they are or not, anyway. There are certainly a lot more than 4 legitimate claims to genius in the history of Western Music. Restricting yourself to the famous composers is asking for BS.
#110
Mozart, Medelsohn, Bach, and Schubert?


Not even Beethoven or Brahms? Or the modern greats like Philip Glass or Leonard Bernstein? Surely you must be joking.
Quote by casualty01
the RIAA can't shut us down, interpol can't shut us down. the U.S. gov't can't shut us down and CERTAINLY not YOU can shut us down.


BA in Music theory
MusicMan Bongo, SUB -> Orange Terror 1000 stack

Quote by waterproofpie
it's a UtBDan sandwich. Awwww yeah!
#111
Quote by UtBDan
Mozart, Medelsohn, Bach, and Schubert?


Not even Beethoven or Brahms? Or the modern greats like Philip Glass or Leonard Bernstein? Surely you must be joking.


Okay, okay, there are more than four. Of course, I shouldn't have said "only".

And Freepower...It's not that I don't understand what you're saying, but can you please expand on the bell curve thing a bit?
#112
Of course, musical genious is not a biological thing that can be passed down through generations. Music, like many things, is a medium of the mind, and is all in one's mind. There are reasons why some people succeed as musicians and some never leave the garage, though. Some people have a natural flare for creation, and can use that to produce great sounds. It's more of a skill than anything. Also, this doesn't mean that anybody who can't make a song right away is doomed to fail, they just have to work a lot harder at it.
#113
im pretty sure genetics has to do with something. it doesnt matter how long you practise, it all comes down to what makes you you. i know that if i practise twice as hard for the rest of my life, ill never be as good as SRV. there is obviously something that makes one person better than another.


"Natural talent" is the excuse that people give to justify their lack of "greatness" in a given subject.

are you saying that everyone eventually can write a symphony in their head perfectly like mozart? i think not.


Yes, everyone could if they devoted their entire life to it.

there has to be something else at work there than just pratice. we practice pretty much the same amount.


There is something called "correct practice." Some never learn it.

Amount of time practiced doesn't mean jack. It is about the quality of time spent.

genetics affect everything you do. i am also into bodybuilding and the first thing you should know is that no matter how hard you train and how much you eat, the number one factor to building your physique is genetics


Bodybuilding and playing/creating music for an insturment is nothing alike. Unlike bodybuilding, playing an insturment isn't that phsyically demanding. Bodybuilding has nothing to do with creative output. Bodybuilding has nothing to do with muscle memory. Bodybuilding is a muscle thing, music creation/playing is a mind/memory thing.

Music Proficiency is a SKILL that is aquired through intense practice and dedication. You arn't born with skills. You arn't born knowing how to hop on a pogostick. "Natural Talent" is often mistaken for early age interest and exposure.
#114
http://www.ap.buffalo.edu/idea/udny/Sec1images/1-12.jpg

Thats a bell curve. It applies to intelligence, or any continuous variables for inherited characteristics.

If you only select a few parts of the "extremely gifted" portion of the bell curve (the 4 greats you mentioned for example), it looks like huge spikes of ability in a sea of normality - genius.
#115
a bell curve is a good example, as it applies to, well, everything. most don't have anything special. but as you get towards the edges, those are the geniuses, the true 'geniuses' being as far from the middle as possible. there are also different degrees of genius, as it's not a black and white thing- you can be good or great without being brilliant.
Quote by corduroyEW
Cheap amps are "that bad". They suck up your tone like cocaine at Kate Moss' party.


I am Michael!
#116
I have very good relative pitch, but I have recently developed perfect pitch. Its not impossible. All you have to do is associate keys with colors. A is yellow, E is reddish brown, G is green, B is colorless/grey, D is dark green, etc. Then when you hear music, just practice naming the keys by the colors and it will come to you in no time at all.
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