#1
Could someone please clear this up....If a ii-V-I is being played in C major than for improvising D minor would be used than on the chord change you could use a scale relative to G7(What scales are used for Dominant chords?) and then a C Major scale for the last chord change?? I learned every mode in every key and wanted to start applying them but i Just keep on getting confused????could someone please clear this up for me..thanks in advance
#2
Try the Mixolydian mode over the G7 chord.

Try comparing each mode to the chord itself and see what you can find. Usually, you'll find modes that have the same degrees as the chord are going to sound good if you emphasize the right notes.

Here's an example...

Dominant 7 Chord - 1 3 5 b7.
Mixolydian Mode - 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7.

In this situation, you'd emphasize the b7 to bring out the qualites of the Mixolydian mode to differentiate it from Ionian.

Instead of looking at modes as completely different scales, just try picking out the notes you need and emphasizing them.

What I mean is... instead of thinking ''Oh, switch to Mixolydian here, then go into Lydian'' - just keep your mind focussed on the tonal center key but emphasize the right notes.
#4
you don't need to change scale for each chord - all you need is the C maj scale, and its' modes if you want - that's the beauty of scales, as long as you stay withinthe key, you only need use the one scale
#5
Quote by dwayne5000
...If a ii-V-I is being played in C major than for improvising D minor would be used then on the chord change you could use a scale relative to G7 (What scales are used for Dominant chords?) and then a C Major scale for the last chord change? I learned every mode in every key and wanted to start applying them but I Just keep on getting confused????could someone please clear this up for me..thanks in advance
Your plight illustrates one of the hazards of learning modes in the abstract. It's great to know how to play them and it's crucial to be able to recognize their sounds. But until you begin to get your head and ears around how they relate to the underlying chords, you're simply very lost with no way home.

As soon as my students show me they can play the different modes at will ("OK, now play a Phrygian mode starting on Bb. Good, now play a Dorian mode starting on G."), we come back to some tonality's diatonic triads and begin applying these modes in a very mechanical, systematic way. Let's take your C major tonality, for example.

In this case, I'd play C major's diatonic triads (C Dm Em F G Am Bdim C) in order. Over each diatonic chord, my student plays the corresponding mode, like so...

C - Ionian mode starting on C
Dm - Dorian mode starting on D
Em - Phyrgian mode starting on E
F - Lydian mode starting on F
G - Mixolydian mode starting on G
Am - Aeolian mode starting on A
Bdim or G7 - Locrian mode starting on B

It doesn't take long at all for a student to get what's going on here.

We then progress to chord progressions, again in a very mechanical and systematic way. Let's take your ii-V-I progression, for example.

This time I'll play this progression (Dm-G7-C) in several different voicings and in different areas on the neck. My student, meanwhile, is now playing a Dorian-Mixolydian-Ionian mode sequence over these chords as I change them. I don't allow the student to try to improvise yet - he or she is simply playing these straight-ahead vanilla modes (D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D over the C major's ii chord, for example) over the chosen tonality's ii-V-I chords.

Hark! The light almost invariably goes on quite brightly at this point. Now we're ready to start stretching out into some improvisation because the student is beginning to hear and grasp at an intuitive level how these modes relate to the underlying chords!

This understanding is still in its infancy and we still have a long way to go, but the student now has a solid foundation on which to build our further studies into the high art of improvisation.

I hope I haven't confused you more than helped you with this explanation. I've used this technique for many years and it seems to have worked very well for my students. If I have hosed you, just ping me and I'll try to explain in a different way how I introduce this topic to my students.
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
Last edited by gpb0216 at Jul 16, 2006,
#6
Mate, you confused me now I think all my years of practise have gone to waste

Ahh, but thanks to gpb above me its all clear, cheers.

Quote by Robbie n strat
In the changing rooms we'd all jump around so our dicks and balls bounced all over the place, which we found hilarious.



Little children should be felt, not heard.
Last edited by notoriousnumber at Jul 16, 2006,
#7
Quote by notoriousnumber
Mate, you confused me now I think all my years of practise have gone to waste



In a vague way, I've kind of explained the same method in a previous thread on modes - obviously with less articulation than gpb, but I think it's the same principle...

A method I find that helps with this is to simply pedal one single chord and play a corresponding mode over it. For example, take C - pedal that chord over and over, now play C Ionian over it to your hearts content, then switch to C Lydian, then C Mixolydian and so on and so forth. It helped me focus on each modes individual characteristics and traits and see them as individuals, as opposed to just modes being a collective group of scales you want to use because, well - you can.

A variation on that would be to get a friend to pedal a chord, or chord progression and for you to play and experiment with modes, then switch places while he plays and you strum. This method might stop you from thinking ''Oh, modes. Boooring!'' as usually if a friend is involved, an element of fun is brought forward, not that learning every single thing shouldn't be fun, of course it should. But I usually find this method keeps people interested.

Maybe that's a bit clearer, or 'dumbed down', so to speak.

I'm sure if you wait for gpb, he'll explain thoroughly
#8
Quote by gpb0216
Your plight illustrates one of the hazards of learning modes in the abstract. It's great to know how to play them and it's crucial to be able to recognize their sounds. But until you begin to get your head and ears around how they relate to the underlying chords, you're simply very lost with no way home.

As soon as my students show me they can play the different modes at will ("OK, now play a Phrygian mode starting on Bb. Good, now play a Dorian mode starting on G."), we come back to some tonality's diatonic triads and begin applying these modes in a very mechanical yet systematic way. Let's take your C major tonality, for example.

In this case, I'd play C major's diatonic triads (C Dm Em F G Am Bdim C) in order. Over each diatonic chord, my student plays the corresponding mode, like so...

C - Ionian mode starting on C
Dm - Dorian mode starting on D
Em - Phyrgian mode starting on E
F - Lydian mode starting on F
G - Mixolydian mode starting on G
Am - Aeolian mode starting on A
Bdim or G7 - Locrian mode starting on B

It doesn't take long at all for a student to get what's going on here.

We then progress to chord progressions, again in a very mechanical and systematic way. Let's take your ii-V-I progression, for example.

This time I'll play this progression (Dm-G7-C) in several different voicings and in different areas on the neck. My student, meanwhile, is now playing a Dorian-Mixolydian-Ionian mode sequence over these chords as I change them. I don't allow the student to try to improvise yet - he or she is simply playing these straight-ahead vanilla modes (D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D over the C major's ii chord, for example) over the chosen tonality's ii-V-I chords.

Hark! The light almost invariably goes on quite brightly at this point. Now we're ready to start stretching out into some improvisation because the student is beginning to hear and grasp at an intuitive level how these modes relate to the underlying chords!

This understanding is still in its infancy and we still have a long way to go, but the student now has a solid foundation on which to build our further studies into the high art of improvisation.

I hope I haven't confused you more than helped you with this explanation. I've used this technique for many years and it seems to have worked very well for my students. If I have hosed you, just ping me and I'll try to explain in a different way how I introduce this topic to my students.


Are you saying to recognize the sound of the mode over its relative chord so over time you can hear the chord and know its relationship with its corresponding mode or something like that?
#9
Quote by Johnljones7443
I'm sure if you wait for gpb, he'll explain thoroughly


I had no need, for he came to me . Um, back to my original post I was referring to the threadstarter, as his post was rather confusing, by no means was yours.

Quote by Robbie n strat
In the changing rooms we'd all jump around so our dicks and balls bounced all over the place, which we found hilarious.



Little children should be felt, not heard.
#10
Quote by dwayne5000
Are you saying to recognize the sound of the mode over its relative chord so over time you can hear the chord and know its relationship with its corresponding mode or something like that?
Yes, but please understand that this is just the starting point. Nobody with even a little musical sensibility is going to play strictly linear modes over diatonic chord changes anywhere except in a learning environment. But, as with all things, we have to start somewhere.
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
#11
Quote by gpb0216
Yes, but please understand that this is just the starting point. Nobody with even a little musical sensibility is going to play strictly linear modes over diatonic chord changes anywhere except in a learning environment. But, as with all things, we have to start somewhere.


I know you wouldnt play it straight through, but using this technique you could know exactly what mode you could improvise with when you hear the chord........but the D minor in C Would relate to The dorian mode while the D minor in B would relate to Phyrigian .....this is why im confused....Is there maybe an article somewhere that explains modes more in depth?
#12
Quote by dwayne5000
I know you wouldnt play it straight through, but using this technique you could know exactly what mode you could improvise with when you hear the chord........but the D minor in C would relate to The dorian mode while the D minor in B would relate to Phyrigian .....this is why im confused....Is there maybe an article somewhere that explains modes more in depth?
You don't sound confused at all. In fact, you sound like you have a pretty solid grasp of mode fundamentals. I believe that getting together with a friend who plays either guitar or piano and experimenting with the diatonic chord / mode exercise described earlier will "turn on the modes light" far better than reading another modes article will.
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.
#13
Quote by gpb0216
Yes, but please understand that this is just the starting point. Nobody with even a little musical sensibility is going to play strictly linear modes over diatonic chord changes anywhere except in a learning environment. But, as with all things, we have to start somewhere.


Would this work.....If I now Where every single note is in a certain key all over the fretboard.....C major for a example all i Would need to do to be playing in the locrian is to start and end phrases on a Natural B or D for dorian..basically just making the listener think there is a different tonic... Could I just apply this to every key or is it more complicated?
#14
Quote by dwayne5000
Would this work.....If I now Where every single note is in a certain key all over the fretboard.....C major for a example all i Would need to do to be playing in the locrian is to start and end phrases on a Natural B or D for dorian..basically just making the listener think there is a different tonic... Could I just apply this to every key or is it more complicated?
Yes, this applies to every key.
All things are difficult before they are easy.
- Dr. Thomas Fuller (British physician, 1654-1734)
Quote by Freepower
For everything you need to know - gpb0216.