#1
Ok so im trying to figure out the scales down the neck learning them by their "scale boxes", and im basicly doing this by taking that particular scales notes and plotting them on a blank fretboard diagram, all down the neck. Which is working just fine, no problem there, it gets me the boxes just perfect. The trouble im having is finding the scale patterns for example: major scales follow the W-W-H-W-W-W-H-W pattern, and you apply that to them to figure out the scales. but i cant seem to find the different patterns for other types of scales. Finally after wearing knee-pads in a truckstop bathroom for long enough i found the minor pentatonic pattern W#-W-W-W#-W. but theres gotta be an easier way to find these patterns or possibly just some sort of master list if im too retarted to figure out how to do it. Hope you guys could understand wtf im babling about because im lost
#2
Well, all I know is the major scale pattern and I use the scale formulas to figure out different scales.

Example: The major scale's formula is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

The Aeolian/Minor scale's formula is 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

So an A major scale would be A B C# D E F# G# A

You take those notes and you end up with this:


1   2   3   4   5   6   7 
A   B   C#  D   E   F#  G#


Now, all you do is incorporate the formula.


1   2   b3  4   5   b6   b7
A   B   C   D   E    F   G


Your A minor scale!

I find these much easier to memorize, and you can find a bunch of them in the lessons on this site

Learning Music Theory-The Beginning
Last edited by kirbyrocknroll at Jul 16, 2006,
#3
Yeah i get how the formulas work i was wondering how you get the formulas themselves.

Edit: oh yeah btw W-W-H-W-W-W-H is the exact same thing as 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7. W, and H just stand for whole and half, and you had your major scale wrong just to let you know.
Last edited by fu man chu at Jul 16, 2006,
#4
Quote by fu man chu
Yeah i get how the formulas work i was wondering how you get the formulas themselves.

Oh. Well...umm...yeah I got all the ones I know from the lessons here
#5
Quote by fu man chu
Yeah i get how the formulas work i was wondering how you get the formulas themselves.

Edit: oh yeah btw W-W-H-W-W-W-H is the exact same thing as 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7. W, and H just stand for whole and half, and you had your major scale wrong just to let you know.


The formulas are in relation to the major scale formula.
#6
Gahh... i also know that there in relation to the major scale, seeing as there based off it and all. What ive been wanting to know from the beginning is how to construct them, or possibly a master list of all the different scale formulas. I dont know how you figure out the changes, what makes a perticular formula minor or not? Do you just apply the same changes to the scale as you would a chord? Is it kind of like what you do to make a chord, like how a major chord is a R-3-5 and a minor chord is R-b3-5 is that all it is? Basicly i dont know wtf im dealing with here, and aparently neither do you guys so far.
#7
Well, that's how I view it. I don't know if that's technically correct, but the chord wouldn't be minor if it didn't have a flattened third, and since the minor scale also has a flattened third it seems logical.
#8
Quote by fu man chu
Gahh... i also know that there in relation to the major scale, seeing as there based off it and all. What ive been wanting to know from the beginning is how to construct them, or possibly a master list of all the different scale formulas. I dont know how you figure out the changes, what makes a perticular formula minor or not? Do you just apply the same changes to the scale as you would a chord? Is it kind of like what you do to make a chord, like how a major chord is a R-3-5 and a minor chord is R-b3-5 is that all it is? Basicly i dont know wtf im dealing with here, and aparently neither do you guys so far.


Surely, if you know that formulas are in relation to the major scale, you shouldn't have any problems figuring out the formula for absolutely everything.

In your first post, you explained how you figured out the whole-step half-step pattern for the minor pentatonic scale, ergo I assume you know the notes of the particular minor pentatonic scale you were dealing with, so - I'll give you an example of a minor pentatonic scale formula in relation to a major scale formula which might help clear up your confusion on how to construct them. Though, you've kind of confused me at the same time.


[B]C Major Scale[/B]: C - D - E - F - G - A - B.
[B]C Min Penta[/B]:   C - Eb - F - G - Bb.


There we have our notes, which I assume you know. Now comes the part that you're confused on, 'how does the major scale formula relate to the minor penatonic scale'?

Let's draw up our C Major scale along with it's scale degrees and compare it to our minor pentatonic notes.


[B]C Major Scale[/B]: C - D - E - F - G - A - B.
[B]Scale Degrees[/B]: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7.

[B]C Min Penta Notes[/B]: C - Eb - F - G - Bb.


You'll notice two notes have been omitted, the 2nd and the 6th - this is because the minor pentatonic scale is constructed with only five different notes. We omit these two notes and then relate our notes to the major scale.

Now, let's look at how they compare and see what we can find.

The 1 scale degree and C note from the major scale are present in our minor pentatonic note pattern, so - we know that our C Minor Pentatonic scale has the scale degree 1 which is the note C. So far, our scale degrees are: 1.

The next note; the 3 note in the C major scale is E. The note in our minor pentatonic scale is Eb. Now, in relation to the major scale, this note is to be made flat. Which would produce the scale degree: b3. We're flatting the third degree of our minor pentatonic scale in relation to the third note of the major scale. Our scale pattern is now: 1 b3.

The 4 note; F is present in both scales, so we have: 1 b3 4. The same applies to the G note under the 5th scale degree: 1 b3 4 5.

Finally, the B note present on the 7th degree of the major scale. The last note of our minor pentatonic is Bb. What does this mean? Yes, we flat the 7th note producing the scale degree: b7.

This leaves us with the scale degree pattern: 1 - b3 - 4 - 5 - b7 - which is the scale degree formula of the minor pentatonic scale

Do you grasp this concept? I hope I haven't lost you further in a pit of scale degrees and notes and only hope you understand this, if not I'm willing to keep going until you're happy.

John.
#9
Ahhhhhh yeah you lost me for the moment, but no worries ill just keep reading over your little lesson till i get it thanx man.

Edit: for the moment im gonna check out the new video lesson
#10
Quote by fu man chu
Ahhhhhh yeah you lost me for the moment, but no worries ill just keep reading over your little lesson till i get it thanx man.

Edit: for the moment im gonna check out the new video lesson


You're welcome... I'm not really happy with it, I was in a rush and didn't really put much thought into it, so it's not really constructed in an understandable manner I don't think. Meh.

G'luck.
#11
Ahhhh ok i read through your "lesson" and yeah... basicly your mentally deficiant, if i have the scale in one key it doesent take a real brain thrust to figure it out in the other keys... I DONT need to know how to use them, or how to figure out the intervals. If i dident know that then how the **** do you think i figured out all the different boxes for A minor pentatonic, when the example i saw to figure it out from was all in C minor?

ONCE AGAIN... my question is how do you MAKE/CREATE/BUILD whatever the **** word you need to get across the point that i want to know how to come up with those different intervals. My question is NOT how to use it once i have that pattern. Sorry i know im being an asshole now, but im getting tired of reading differnt variations of the same retarted misconception, aparently you guys dont know.

... look familiar
Quote by fu man chu
Yeah i get how the formulas work i was wondering how you get the formulas themselves.
Last edited by fu man chu at Jul 17, 2006,
#12
^I just explained how the formula is found. I showed you how to find the formula in relation the major scale, not how it works.

Maybe if you explained what exactly it is you're lost on, clearly and without insulting people - you might get more answers.
#13
How much more ****ing clear do I need to be? I want to know how you make the formulas themselves. NOT how you figure out the intervals once you already have the scale, like you showed me for some unknown reason. That does me no good what so ever, seeing as if you actually read through any number of posts ive put on this thread, it's quite evident that I already know how to do that.
#14
Quote by fu man chu
How much more ****ing clear do I need to be? I want to know how you make the formulas themselves. NOT how you figure out the intervals once you already have the scale, like you showed me for some unknown reason. That does me no good what so ever, seeing as if you actually read through any number of posts ive put on this thread, it's quite evident that I already know how to do that.


I showed you how you make the formula, my friend.

I took the notes of the minor pentatonic scale, and in relation to the major scale showed you how you make the formula itself.

Obviously, you need to be a lot fucking clearer because the question you asked has already been answered.
#15
I'm a little weary of getting involved in this angry thread but...

Major/Ionian - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Dorian - 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Phrygian - 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Lydian - 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
Mixolydian - 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
Aeolian/minor - 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Locrian - 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

Is this what you're looking for?
#16
great... so if my question is answered then why am i still here? let me put this another way, lets say that i only know the major scale and had no other scale to compare to it, how would i come up with say melodic minor using only the major scale. It's obviously possible because those formulas had to be created at some point, they dident all just instantly crap themselves out on the fretboard.

Sorry dude i know your trying to help me, and i appriciate it but were just not communicating i guess. Btw i checked out some of your music clips in your sig and your pretty damn good .
#17
Okay... I've already explained before. The formulas are found by relating to the major scale, that's how they were created. That is how the formulas are created. Maybe your idea of the word formula is confused with something else and that's where we're not communicating. Perhaps you mean, 'Why are the notes in a scale, the notes in that scale?' or something equally confusing.

And thank you very much.
#19
well, it looks like jlj answered your question as easily as possible, i don't see the problem

perhaps you mean where did these formulas come from? they were made long long ago, who gives a damn how they were made...i heard that the major scale was formed because people back then saw the major 2nd and 3rd etc as the most "holy" interval or something and they built it from there...i heard the locrian was banned for a while because of its dark qualities...is that what you were asking or what?
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#20
Yeah, I think your question was answered unless you are asking somwthing else. Try to give us an example? Even if it is incorrect it will help us understand what you are asking.

John gave a clear explanation in my opinion. Basically, you take the notes of the scale and compare it to the "1 2 3 4 5 6 7" formula of the major scale.

Let's say you know the notes of the E minor scale (E, F#, G, A, B, C, D, E). Since it is related to the major scale, you take the E major scale and compare the two.



[b]E Major[/b]

1  2  3  4  5  6  7
E  F# G# A  B  C# D#

[b]E Minor[/b]
E  F# G  A  B  C  D  



Now, if you were to stack the notes together, you would see this.


[b]E Major[/b] E   F#   G#  A   B   C#  D#
[b]E minor[/b] E   F#   G   A   B   C   D  


Now, the note E is the first note(1) in both scales. So you need not change anything for 1. The formula so far is 1.

The note F# (2) is also the same for both scales, so you need not change anything for 2. The formula so far is 1 2.

Now, in the major scale, the third note (3) is G#. In the minor scale, it is G. How do you change the G# in the major scale into the G of the minor scale? You flatten it. And since it is the third note of the scale it is a b3. The formula so far is 1 2 b3.

The note A is also the same for both scales, so no change is needed.The formula so far is 1 2 b3 4.

Same goes for the fifth note in the scales (5).
Last edited by kirbyrocknroll at Jul 17, 2006,
#21
Quote by axe_grinder247
well, it looks like jlj answered your question as easily as possible, i don't see the problem

perhaps you mean where did these formulas come from? they were made long long ago, who gives a damn how they were made...i heard that the major scale was formed because people back then saw the major 2nd and 3rd etc as the most "holy" interval or something and they built it from there...i heard the locrian was banned for a while because of its dark qualities...is that what you were asking or what?


Holy **** he gets it! You must be some sort of genius, yeah thats what ive been asking this whole time, and aparently i care. So basicly back to what ive said several times at this point nobody has a ****ing clue how to do it.
#22
a scale is a collection of notes. starting on one note called the root and going up till it reaches its octave,

the maj scale which has the notes G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G, The formula is as u know W-W-H-W-W-W-H. WHY? because G to A is a whole step, A to B is a whole step, B to C is a half step, C to D is a whole step, D to E is a whole step, E to F# is a whole step, then finally F# to G is a half step.
so someone clever said: "hmmm... if i have the formula W-W-H-W-W-W-H, i can basically form the maj scale starting on any note"

same with all other scales, for instance the minor pentatonic scale in G min is G-A#-C-D-F-G.
G to A# is a W+H step,
A# to C is a W step,
C to D is a W step,
D to F# is a W+H step,
F# to G is a W step,
hence the formula W+H, W, W, W+H, W

any scale's formula can be found this way.

scales existed before there formulas. formulas are helpful to play the scale everywhere on the fretboard. and to find a scale any where on th fretboard.

if this didnt answer ur question plz explain why not
#23
here's the Pythagorean theory in regards to scales and such

http://www.jimloy.com/physics/scale.htm
Quote by BigFatSandwich
it took you 15 consecutive hours of practice to realize that playing guitar makes you better at playing guitar. congratulations.


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Member #2 of the "Official UG Teabaggers' Cult". PM Slayer224 to join.
#24
Quote by jacoinmalawi
a scale is a collection of notes. starting on one note called the root and going up till it reaches its octave,

the maj scale which has the notes G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G, The formula is as u know W-W-H-W-W-W-H. WHY? because G to A is a whole step, A to B is a whole step, B to C is a half step, C to D is a whole step, D to E is a whole step, E to F# is a whole step, then finally F# to G is a half step.
so someone clever said: "hmmm... if i have the formula W-W-H-W-W-W-H, i can basically form the maj scale starting on any note"

same with all other scales, for instance the minor pentatonic scale in G min is G-A#-C-D-F-G.
G to A# is a W+H step,
A# to C is a W step,
C to D is a W step,
D to F# is a W+H step,
F# to G is a W step,
hence the formula W+H, W, W, W+H, W

any scale's formula can be found this way.

scales existed before there formulas. formulas are helpful to play the scale everywhere on the fretboard. and to find a scale any where on th fretboard.

if this didnt answer ur question plz explain why not



Dude... stfu this is the same **** that people keep posting that is pissing me the **** off... I ALREADY KNOW THIS ****, THATS NOT MY QUESTION. So far out of the 257 veiws on this thread axe_grinder247 is the only one capable of reading a simple sentence, congrats man! Oh and axe_grinder247 thank you for that link that kind of explained things a bit.
#25
Quote by fu man chu
Yeah i get how the formulas work i was wondering how you get the formulas themselves.


That was a bit misleading. You get formulas by using the process described about 3 times in the thread. They were created a long time ago like axe grinder said.

Dude, just chill out lol. You don't have to read the explanations. I guess it's frustrating that we aren't answering correctly, but you could've given us an example instead of getting mad

From Wikipedia

The names of the church modes are Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, and Locrian, and they match geographic or ethnic regions in ancient Greece. The philosophy writings of both Plato and Aristotle (approx 350 BCE) include large sections that describe the effect of different musical modes on mood and on character formation.


The whole article is here
Last edited by kirbyrocknroll at Jul 18, 2006,
#26
Quote by fu man chu
Dude... stfu this is the same **** that people keep posting that is pissing me the **** off... I ALREADY KNOW THIS ****, THATS NOT MY QUESTION. So far out of the 257 veiws on this thread axe_grinder247 is the only one capable of reading a simple sentence, congrats man! Oh and axe_grinder247 thank you for that link that kind of explained things a bit.


Maybe if you fuckin' spoke English, someone might be able to answer your question in amongst your insults, swearing and conceited tantrums.

You didn't explain yourself properly, what do you expect?

You're the sort who isn't worth helping.
#27
Now now, children. Play nice.

You did indeed fail at explaining yourself properly, I'm gonna be entirely honest.
Looking for my India/Django.
#28
Quote by redwing_suck
Now now, children. Play nice.

You did indeed fail at explaining yourself properly, I'm gonna be entirely honest.


I'm sorry.

I tried to explain the best I could given what he said - in that post I explained how to figure out the pentatonic degrees, I honestly thought that's what he wanted... after I typed that up and get called mentall deficient, you know - what can a guy do.

Either way fu man chu - if only you could ask your question in an understandable manner without beating around the bush, you'd probably get an educated answer in no time...
#29
You know what im sorry mabey i dident use the right terminology to explain it but i really diden't know how else to put it. Mabey it's just me, but after the 5th or sixth time of telling various people that they are nowhere near what i was looking for, they could of possibly re-thought it, or at the very least stop posting the same ****ing lesson? I dont know thats just sort of a common sence thing to me. And saying that im not worth helping, thats your opinion which i respect seeing as im not even close to conceited, if i was why would i even be asking for help? As for the insults, i'm sorry about that too but it tends to come sort of naturally after a certain point. Which evidentally you understand by your oh so tough display of succesfully passing the censors and typing out the word ****, were all very inpressed . I know I sound like a total dick, but im just trying to get things across in simplest terms possible and i know alot of people tend to take my sarcasm as straight insults... (which i find hilarious) so yeah either keep thinking about me that way or not, its not really my buisiness.

Edit: oh yeah and kirbyrocknroll thank you so much dude your a beast throughout this entire thing even when i was "insulting" people you were cool to me the whole time.
Last edited by fu man chu at Jul 18, 2006,
#30
Keep it up and you'll be in the FOTB soon... just cool it. You're the only one being a true ass about all this.
Looking for my India/Django.
#31
redwing_suck... dude? If you have somthing personal against me thats fine feel free to pm me, or whatever you feel nessicary, and id be happy to work it out with you, but bringing up the FOTB is a little extreme. I know i pissed alot of good people off in this thread and im just trying to apologise for that.
#32
Quote by fu man chu
redwing_suck... dude? If you have somthing personal against me thats fine feel free to pm me, or whatever you feel nessicary, and id be happy to work it out with you, but bringing up the FOTB is a little extreme. I know i pissed alot of good people off in this thread and im just trying to apologise for that.


I don't think it's anything personal - just your attitude in this thread. People try to help you and you throw it back in their face when they haven't understood your question, then for their help - you personally insult them. That's extreme, dude. That's rude, ungrateful and conceited.

I don't really take offense, but when I've tried help you with good will, and you've thrown it back in my face, it's hard to keep a lid on things so, you know?

From what I can gather, you didn't mean it and have apologised, and I apologise for the little outburst earlier.

No hard feelings
#34
There's nothing personal about it, and there's nothing "offensive" about the FOTB. You were acting up, I let you know. Simple.
Looking for my India/Django.
#36
That was a power trip? I was unaware. A power trip would be banning you and then closing this thread. Which I won't do. Unless you act like more of an ass.

Power trip? Hardly. It's not like I sit around here and wait to ban people. Also, it's sort of... you know... my job... to keep the crap to a minimum. If I delete posts and warn people, I'm all of the sudden on a power trip? That's like saying the governor's being too almighty when he passes a law for the good of the country.
Looking for my India/Django.
#37
fu man, close your damn cock-holster.

You're just being a brat and continue to spam and act up just to get a rise out of redwing for whatever reason.

If I was him I'd have closed your thread a long time ago just for being a deuce-bag. So consider yourself lucky that you haven't been warned/banned already.
#38
Quote by fu man chu
Edit: oh yeah and kirbyrocknroll thank you so much dude your a beast throughout this entire thing even when i was "insulting" people you were cool to me the whole time.


No problem
#39
i dont wanna be involved in this hostility, so ill just try to help
go to www.wholenote.com > click on "Basics" at the top > click on "Guitar Theory Charts" > and click on "Scale Theory Chart".
this is if u want to see the construction of other scales, other thatn the major and its modes. peace
#40
fu man chu:
Ok so im trying to figure out the scales down the neck learning them by their "scale boxes", and im basicly doing this by taking that particular scales notes and plotting them on a blank fretboard diagram, all down the neck. Which is working just fine, no problem there, it gets me the boxes just perfect. The trouble im having is finding the scale patterns for example: major scales follow the W-W-H-W-W-W-H-W pattern, and you apply that to them to figure out the scales. but i cant seem to find the different patterns for other types of scales. Finally after wearing knee-pads in a truckstop bathroom for long enough i found the minor pentatonic pattern W#-W-W-W#-W. but theres gotta be an easier way to find these patterns or possibly just some sort of master list if im too retarted to figure out how to do it. Hope you guys could understand wtf im babling about because im lost


do you want to know how to get patterns like this/ for other scales?
http://www.guitarlessonworld.com/lessons/lesson.php?num=13&category=Lesson
scroll a bit down