#1
Im looking at the ESP KH202 and i absolutely love it. The only thing im worried about is that it has a bolt on neck. Most higher end models have a set through neck so i was wondering what the pros or cons are of having a bolt on neck. thanks
#2
Not much difference, I think the main difference is less sustain with bolt ons, but the difference is nothing.
And with bolt on necks, you can easily change necks if you want.
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#3
Bolt ons are cheaper to replace, easier to repair etc.

It is also said that there is poor fret access compared to other types, but the difference is inconsequential.

Ditto with sustain, just a few seconds off the sustain
#5
Actually bolt on necks get as good if not better sustain than set necks. Think about it... Wood on wood contact is going to give you a better sound transfer than if you have a layer of glue insulating and dampening vibrations.

I see absolutely no reason for a consumer to want a set neck. Companies like Gibson lie to you and tell you it's better so that they can charge you hundreds more and then save themselves $0.50 because they don't have to buy bolts.

thruk necks do give better sustain because there is no joint to dampen vibration.
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Last edited by CorduroyEW at Jul 17, 2006,
#9
Quote by CorduroyEW
Actually bolt on necks get as good if not better sustain than set necks. Think about it... Wood on wood contact is going to give you a better sound transfer than if you have a layer of glue insulating and dampening vibrations.

I see absolutely no reason for a consumer to want a set neck. Companies like Gibson lie to you and tell you it's better so that they can charge you hundreds more and then save themselves $0.50 because they don't have to buy bolts.

thruk necks do give better sustain because there is no joint to dampen vibration.

I disagree. When have you ever seen a good factory bolt on neck joint? Proper set necks should be able to support the wieght of the body by holding the neck without glue. Not to mention most set necks have the tenon extending about halfway into the neck pickup route. Set neck routes are almost double the size of a standard fender pocket. The difference is miniscule, but it's there.

Then again, when have you ever seen a good factory set neck joint too.
#10
Quote by CorduroyEW
Actually bolt on necks get as good if not better sustain than set necks. Think about it... Wood on wood contact is going to give you a better sound transfer than if you have a layer of glue insulating and dampening vibrations.

I see absolutely no reason for a consumer to want a set neck. Companies like Gibson lie to you and tell you it's better so that they can charge you hundreds more and then save themselves $0.50 because they don't have to buy bolts.

thruk necks do give better sustain because there is no joint to dampen vibration.

ok let me choose my words carefully...

Take a gun and make sure it is loaded. Pull back the top and aim it at your temple and pull the triger.

Believe me this is a vital step to ensure the continued survival of the human species.
#11
My PRS has a pretty nice set neck joint. Between my PRS and Strat, though, I find no real advantage or disadvantage to a set or bolt-on neck. It's just personal preference. If bolt-on necks sucked that bad, the Strat wouldn't be the most popular and most copied guitar ever. The only real advantage to a neck-thru is the smoothness of the heel and having the best access to the higher frets. Perhaps the sustain is better, but the thing is, who really lets notes ring out for that long? Total length of sustain is a bit irrelevant to me.
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#12
Quote by Ihearthetfield
ok let me choose my words carefully...

Take a gun and make sure it is loaded. Pull back the top and aim it at your temple and pull the triger.

Believe me this is a vital step to ensure the continued survival of the human species.


Do you mean a shotgun?
#13
"Pull back the top?" Is this gun a ragtop convertible? You should at least know some shooting jargon before instructing someone on how to shoot themselves.
Hi, I'm Peter
#14
Quote by Keef-is-king
I think that most people associate bolt on with less sustain because they say "strats have less sustain then a les paul" but those aren't directly comparable, I'd like to see the fender custom shop make two strats with the same wood, one bolt on one set neck and see which one sustains longer......


i do believe les pauls have longer sustain due to their woods (mahogany denser) and also there bridge choice.
#15
Quote by tuberculosis
I disagree. When have you ever seen a good factory bolt on neck joint? Proper set necks should be able to support the wieght of the body by holding the neck without glue. Not to mention most set necks have the tenon extending about halfway into the neck pickup route. Set neck routes are almost double the size of a standard fender pocket. The difference is miniscule, but it's there.

Then again, when have you ever seen a good factory set neck joint too.



The reason guitars with set necks tend to have more sustain that gutiars with bolt on necks is that guitars with set necks are usually big and heavy like an LP and then it's the body of the guitar that is giving you the sustain, not the neck joint.

I have actually tested both neck joints on the same guitar. I've built a guitar and made a dovetail neck joint but I also put bolts in it to hold it together. Then I played the guitar into my computers and ran the signal through a limiter and a noise gate so that I could measure the decay. I did this with the bolts 1st. Then I took the bolts off and glued the neck on with hot hide glue and the results were almost exactly the same. Then I took the neck off again and glued it on with tightbond which is what the people like gibson use. When I used tightbond the sustain decreased by just a little bit. There wasn't what I would considar a noticable difference between the tightbond set neck and the bolt on neck but there was a measurable difference and the bolt on neck gave more sustain.
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#16
Quote by CorduroyEW
The reason guitars with set necks tend to have more sustain that gutiars with bolt on necks is that guitars with set necks are usually big and heavy like an LP and then it's the body of the guitar that is giving you the sustain, not the neck joint.

I have actually tested both neck joints on the same guitar. I've built a guitar and made a dovetail neck joint but I also put bolts in it to hold it together. Then I played the guitar into my computers and ran the signal through a limiter and a noise gate so that I could measure the decay. I did this with the bolts 1st. Then I took the bolts off and glued the neck on with hot hide glue and the results were almost exactly the same. Then I took the neck off again and glued it on with tightbond which is what the people like gibson use. When I used tightbond the sustain decreased by just a little bit. There wasn't what I would considar a noticable difference between the tightbond set neck and the bolt on neck but there was a measurable difference and the bolt on neck gave more sustain.

That leads me to my next point, and I knew you'd say that.

First of all, you tested this on an acoustic, which means the results are pretty useless. Bolt on necks have different mortises' than set necks, that's a fact. It's actually pretty simple common sense. I'm not going to go into the science in because I haven't had my morning coffee yet, but it's not that hard to understand. Also, i've built LP's with set necks and LP's with bolt on necks ala Fender and the set necks always seemed to have better tone, and just sound better.

Tell me if that doesnt make sense btw, i'm still sleeping.
#17
I prefer set necks cause of the fret access and just the general feel, feels more like your holding one big chunk of a guitar (i have a set-thru neck), bolt on's are more punchy and have greater attack, often good for basses, whereas set necks sound to me more organic and warm then bolt on necks in guitars.
#18
Quote by tuberculosis
That leads me to my next point, and I knew you'd say that.

First of all, you tested this on an acoustic, which means the results are pretty useless. Bolt on necks have different mortises' than set necks, that's a fact. It's actually pretty simple common sense. I'm not going to go into the science in because I haven't had my morning coffee yet, but it's not that hard to understand. Also, i've built LP's with set necks and LP's with bolt on necks ala Fender and the set necks always seemed to have better tone, and just sound better.

Tell me if that doesnt make sense btw, i'm still sleeping.



Nope. When I 1st mentioned this, well over a year ago, I had only done it on acoustic but even then I said that I was going to do it with an electric as well. I even tried to get some of you all to do it. I offered up plans and everyting but nobody wanted to give it a try so I went ahead and did it myself. I did not make a whole guitar. It was more like a neck and a bridge with 1 string a pickup. Nothing fancy, all I was doing was measuring sustain. It doesn't matter that a set neck typically has a different mortice than a bolt on. It is still possible to bolt on a neck that has a set neck mortice and that is exactly what I did. I wasn't testing different types of mortice and tennons. I was testing to see if gluing the neck on gave the guitar more sustain than bolting it on. If you don't beleive me then that fine. Try it yourself.

I'm not arguing about "better tone" because I'm sure you do like the tone of a set neck better. I didn?t test for "better tone" I only tested for sustain which is not the same thing.
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Last edited by CorduroyEW at Jul 17, 2006,
#19
I forgot to add it seemed to sustain a bit longer, but one note sustain is boring. Sustain is still useless, like mentioned who holds a note for that long? There's not a factory bolt on that has a mortise of an LP (besides the cheaper PRS'), so again your results are pretty useless. When it comes down to it, set neck vs bolt on, set neck will always have the better sustain. The size tolerances need to be closer on a set neck than on a bolt on, and i've seen fender necks with 1/8" polyester in the neck pocket, and there was still gaps between the neck and the pocket. Factory set necks will always have better sustain than factory bolt ons, it's common sense again. Wood on wood contact is good yes, but if the mortise is done correctly you hardly need ANY glue to hold it in, and the body should be able to be supported by the neck without glue. The miniscule amount of glue would not be enough to even pickup on a computer.

It's more important to look at the body woods you're using, and what tone you're going for when selecting a neck joint.
Last edited by tuberculosis at Jul 17, 2006,
#20
Sustain is useless??? Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds? A statment like that makes it much easier to compleatly ignore you when you say my test is useless.


Edit: I see you edited your post so that what you said doesn't sound so retarded.

I?m not trying to pretend that sustain is the be all end all, it's just that sustain is usually the argument for why people need a set neck when fact is that sustain is not helped from a set neck. I don?t personally think set neck guitars have ?better tone? but that is personal taste not a measurable fact.
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Last edited by CorduroyEW at Jul 17, 2006,
#22
^You need sustain, good tone, volume, comfort, and a lot of other things. A guitar that has "good tone" but doesn't sustain long enough to play a note is useless, a guitar that has good tone, sustain, and volume but is so uncomfortable that you can't play it is useless, and a guitar that is comfortable, sustains, sounds good but is really hard to get any volume from is pretty useless. You have to look at the combination.
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Last edited by CorduroyEW at Jul 17, 2006,
#23
I already knew glue hurt sustain, and I already knew a properly done bolt on will sustain just as well as a set neck joint. What i'm saying is factory bolt on joints are crap. It's pretty much a fact for most companies (besides maybe Godin). Companies that do set neck have closer size tolerances, and they generally sustain more because there's more contact wood to wood, even though they're using glue. Set necks WILL sustain more, just because of the mortise they use.

Most guitars sustain fine regardless of build quality.
#24
I don't suppose anybody remembers who it was the posted the pics of the cross sections of the Gibson Les Paul neck joints.
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#26
i hate most bolt-ons..i hate the way they feel....my friends LTD has a good one its an old F-100 the only bolt on ive ever liked...

and the KH-202 is a ****ty guitar..i had it for a week...get like an MH-250...way better
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