Poll: Should shred be mainstream
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View poll results: Should shred be mainstream
yes
24 39%
no
38 61%
Voters: 62.
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#1
Well before I get to my main question I'm going to leave this thread open for awhile to get votes in first. First question- Do you think shred should be mainstream (or bands with great guitarists who can be defined as shredders, sp?) When you answer this question I'll give you my real question.

I think yes, shred should be mainstream.

Please vote, starting now!!
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#2
I dont care what becomes mainstream. I think shredding should cause if it does, what will happen is everyone will get sick of it and it will Die. My thoughts
#3
Yes then maybe I could actually listen to it on the radio and meet more than two people who know who Steve Vai is.
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#4
People can't really appreciate shredding.

It's not something everyone actually like to hear.

I mean...Even ordinary mainstream rock bands will never do any shredding even if the guitarist is good. If you're not really interested in guitar, or just interested in music as an amateur, shredding is just noise, fast noize. It can't go mainstream. And even if it did, I kinda agree with Captian Xero, after a time, you'll get plenty of peole telling that shredding is **** and everything...

Let people who likes shredding, appreciate shredding.
#5
im gonna have to say no i wouldnt mind if it did tho but like overaid said its just not for everyone
#6
I think it would be good if some mainstream band introduced shredding into thier music. Like it has been said it would die after a while (like everything else) but it would at least give people who would never normally listen to music like that a chance to get into it.

I've only been introduced to guitarists like Steve Vai recently by a friend of mine! Otherwise I proabably wouldnt have knew he even existed!!
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#7
I think some mainstream bands already did. Well if you consider it shredding (DF, A7x etc).
I really don't care wether it goes mainstream or not as long as it doesn't die out and it won't.
#8
Quote by Overaid
People can't really appreciate shredding.

It's not something everyone actually like to hear.


unfortunately that is true. and I cannot fathom out why. the bass player in my band for instance is into the whole jam/funk school, and plays really well. he has listened to a lot of shred after becoming a close friend of mine, and says that he understands the music and appreciates the godly talents of the guitar players, but just doesn't care much for that style of music. This at times amazes me since I am equally at ease listening to Frusciante lay down those acid soaked funky grooves, or Nick Drake's open ended finger plucked melodies and Buckethead's madness... they all appeal to me differently and during different times... I don't understand how one could put one down in favor of the other...

anyway, I don't think shred the way it is incorporated by most guitar players will be overtly popular in the mainstream - sure guys know who Satriani and Vai is, and a lotta people have heard of DT and such, but these folks will still at the end of the day have an extremely dedicated but not a mainstream audience...

now seeing it wouldn't hurt me seeing shred guitar players and/or bands on MTv, I think that could probably happen if they shredders truly went out of their way to experiment with some varying soundscapes and did something truly innovative sonically... and yes, part of it would mean aligning themselves with a diverse bunch of musicians with equal rights to creative input.
#9
If shred becomes mainstream, it will wipe all the really gay bands out. But then again, the copycat music producers will copy their shred and make it 'more appealing' to the public (in english, turn into crap), like making songs shorter, less interesting, and with lyrics. And then we will be the ones getting pwned by the guys in the Pop-Punk/Emo Forum.
#10
Shred is an aquired taste, it's hard to call because some mainstream rock bands like Arch Enemy and Children Of Bodom of shred-esq solos, but people like Vai and Satch and Becker who do more intrumentals and stuff are a bit more....out there to people.

I also figure it's probably harder to appreciate shred if you're not a musician yourself, because shred isn't merely playing fast but it involves the techniques etc, you're never going to appreciate the difficulty and skills involved.

Either way, it's never going to die and as long as you enjoy it what does it matter?
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#11
mainstream bands that have guitarists capable of shredding (Children of Bodom, Megadeth) should do so, at least in solos, cause it makes an awesome solo, but the music that belongs to the shred genre like Rusty Cooley or Buckethead or Malmsteen will never be mainsteam. and Matt_Malmsteen is right, non-musicians rarely appreciate shred, the only person i know who likes Rusty Cooley who doesn't play guitar, he tries to play but he's very terrible, otherwise most people say that shred/instrumental isn't bad they just want lyrics, why god only knows...
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#13
You people see "mainstream" as some completely different entity.

The difference between mainstream music and other music can 90% of the time be put down to quality of songs. Bands don't choose to be mainstream, if you write really good songs, then you will be noticed in the public eye. Simple. If a band isn't mainstream then with most types of music its because they flat out do not write good enough songs.

Obviously there are exceptions. The Berzerker are never going to be on Top of the Pops, no matter how catchy a song they write. Some styles of music are not really meant to be chimed out in elevators. And I think shred (which is mostly instrumental) isn't one of them. People don't like instrumentals, they want lyrics about stuff they can relate to.

No before you guys flame me, when I'm talking about good songs here I'm talking about a good pop song. You don't need to be James Blunt to write a pop song, many other bands can enjoy mainstream success, for example, if you look at Slipknot, they were massive at times, enjoying plenty of radioplay to boot, because their songs, although involving distorted guitars/downtunings/screaming, were incredibly catchy and well written.

Now also, don't get me wrong. There are plenty of bands out there that write fantastic songs that should be far more recognised, but the music industry today is a tough place. I was shocked when I found out that Sony BMG - one of the largest record companies - signs only about 25 artists a year - and even then those artists aren't guaranteed an album release and success.

I've rambled for far too long, and my use of punctuation has been terrible.
#14
Yes, but plenty of mainstream bands are terrible. Simple Plan anyone?

Any semi decent band can write a better song than them.

Example- Dream Theater. Excellent band, absolutely incredible. Are they mainstream? No. Can they write better than most mainstream artists? Yes.

Your theory is flawed. I do enjoy some pop. A lot of mainstream techno and pop is great. But that theory is not 100% accurate by any means.
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#15
Yes, a good song, true.

But you fail to mention who it needs to sound good to, which are mostly teenage morons who couldn't recognise a major from a minor key.

And dude, how many of the really popular bands write their own songs? Not many, I can tell you that.

I think you're being too optimistic about most mainstream music, it might be good in their eyes, it's **** in mine
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#16
Quote by apocalypse13
Yes, but plenty of mainstream bands are terrible. Simple Plan anyone?

Any semi decent band can write a better song than them.

Example- Dream Theater. Excellent band, absolutely incredible. Are they mainstream? No. Can they write better than most mainstream artists? Yes.

Your theory is flawed. I do enjoy some pop. A lot of mainstream techno and pop is great. But that theory is not 100% accurate by any means.

I'm sorry, but not liking Simple Plan is an opinion. Although personally I can't stand their lyrics, they do write good songs. Just like Fall Out Boy do too before someone brings them up. True, the lyrics are all very whiny (songs like "Welcome To My Life" are painstakingly clichéd), but the songs are very well put together, the production is always flawless and they are more catchy than AIDS. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean its not good - from an A&R point of view bands like Simple Plan just have $$$ written all over them. They appeal to a market and deliver... with music like that its all about the vocal melodies, nobody cares about riffs or whatever, its all about catchy melodies (like the chorus to "Sugar, We're Going Down" - nobody knows what on earth he's saying, but they can hum along to it no problems).

Dream theater are never going to be mainstream, the songs are too long and there are too many instrumental sections. If they trimmed some of their stuff I reckon they could easily enjoy more success than they do - I'm not saying they should, but you could easily turn something like "Endless Sacrifice" into a listenable pop song. This is something I'm studying I'll have you know.
#17
Quote by Resiliance
Yes, a good song, true.

But you fail to mention who it needs to sound good to, which are mostly teenage morons who couldn't recognise a major from a minor key.

And dude, how many of the really popular bands write their own songs? Not many, I can tell you that.

I think you're being too optimistic about most mainstream music, it might be good in their eyes, it's **** in mine

Again, opinion. You've stated nothing of any importance here whatsoever. Yes, its appealing to non-musicians well done for pointing that out Einstein As for peope writing their own songs, 1) you'd be surprised that most succesful 'bands' do, as opposed to successful 'solo artists' who on the whole write much less, and 2) I fail to see what pointing it out was achieving - I'm not talking about who writes it, I'm just arguing that on the whole the songs are good.

I'm guessing everyone in this forum likes Shred, so I hardly expected any of you to jump at the chance of complimenting Simple Plan
#19
Quote by Tom Martin
I'm sorry, but not liking Simple Plan is an opinion. Although personally I can't stand their lyrics, they do write good songs. Just like Fall Out Boy do too before someone brings them up. True, the lyrics are all very whiny (songs like "Welcome To My Life" are painstakingly clichéd), but the songs are very well put together, the production is always flawless and they are more catchy than AIDS. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean its not good - from an A&R point of view bands like Simple Plan just have $$$ written all over them. They appeal to a market and deliver... with music like that its all about the vocal melodies, nobody cares about riffs or whatever, its all about catchy melodies (like the chorus to "Sugar, We're Going Down" - nobody knows what on earth he's saying, but they can hum along to it no problems).

Dream theater are never going to be mainstream, the songs are too long and there are too many instrumental sections. If they trimmed some of their stuff I reckon they could easily enjoy more success than they do - I'm not saying they should, but you could easily turn something like "Endless Sacrifice" into a listenable pop song. This is something I'm studying I'll have you know.
OK, moving on from prog, how about some other, simpler metal?

Can you say that Carcass's later work was not ridiculously catchy and very well written? No. They have some of the catchiest tunes I've ever heard.

What about At the Gates? Rammstein? Rammstein is REALLY catchy, and they don't enjoy immense amounts of success.

Trust me, I see your point, but I want to point out that there are plenty of bands who are just as catchy, if not more, than most mainstream artists.


Also, why do you keep saying "opinion?" Don't dismiss what Resi is saying as "opinion" and what you're saying as "fact." Because you're stating nothing more than an opinion either.

Edit: For the record, please don't dismiss this as elitist, I can enjoy a lot of mainstream stuff.
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Last edited by apocalypse13 at Jul 28, 2006,
#20
Popularity comes down to how well you are marketed, and the means that people learn of you. It has nothing to do with how well you can do anything.
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#21
Quote by Prophet of Page
Popularity comes down to how well you are marketed, and the means that people learn of you. It has nothing to do with how well you can do anything.

Exactly.

If a band like Carcass had the marketing of Britney Spears, we'd see them all over the place.

But we all know that'll never happen.
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#22
Quote by Tom Martin
Again, opinion. You've stated nothing of any importance here whatsoever. Yes, its appealing to non-musicians well done for pointing that out Einstein As for peope writing their own songs, 1) you'd be surprised that most succesful 'bands' do, as opposed to successful 'solo artists' who on the whole write much less, and 2) I fail to see what pointing it out was achieving - I'm not talking about who writes it, I'm just arguing that on the whole the songs are good.

I'm guessing everyone in this forum likes Shred, so I hardly expected any of you to jump at the chance of complimenting Simple Plan


Are you just ignorant of the meaning of "good"?

Good isn't a fact, Einstein#2, good is opinion.
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#23
Rammstein is REALLY catchy

**** yeah Rammstein is cathcy great band, 2nd , heh heh. (sorry for not quoting right, forgot how)
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#24
I'm sure this thread has been done before and popularity really is down to marketing and depends on what you mean by popular, do you mean household name popular or popular in groups, because in the latter meaning shred can be classed as popular.

Also even if shred was mainstream would it really change anything?
I don't think seeing Steve Vai advertising Cillit Bang as opposed to Barry Scott would really change much about the music I listen to, at all.
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#26
Mainstream listeners generally like what they're told to like. If somebody on MTV said, lets say Andy Timmons was "the next big thing" or something like that a lot of the people would go check him out. As previously stated, with the right marketing anyone can become famous/succesfull.
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#27
Quote by Resiliance
Are you just ignorant of the meaning of "good"?

Good isn't a fact, Einstein#2, good is opinion.

Yes, good is an opinion. But up to a point. It could be someones opinion that Steve Vai is a terrible guitar player... its an opinion but its also wrong. Same with songs, I hate to break it to you, but songs can be good... I'm talking about grading things on production, melodies, how catchy it is etc. There is a line where opinion hold some fact to it. I'm not totally of the opinion that songs are just good or bad on opinions... But then again I am literally talking about sell-out pop songs. I'm talking true garbage one-hit-wonder stuff, maybe thats where you are misunderstanding me.

People have jobs writing pop songs, they just sit there churning them out. There is no emotion in that, theres no meaning - they're just trying to write "Angels" or "Imagine" again. Thats where songs turn into more of a science than an art.

So yes, I do believe that good can be a fact.
#28
Absolutely not imo.
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#29
^^^you dont really seem to know where your argument is going. These songs that are 'churned out' as you say, are still written by PEOPLE, not emotionless robots---sure, there are varying degrees of 'genuine' artistic input, and the radio-friendly, formulaic popular nonsense you speak of, but none of us can say HOW much emotion goes into the writing process---not even you.

Over-produced, easy on the ear stuff does not necessarily mean automatic success--take Incubus' morning view--that album is produced to HELL and I know it was something of an MTV cash-cow album and sold by the lorry-load, over here it didnt make much of a mainstream impact---why? when Good Charlotte and Blink 182 were all over the radios at their commerical peaks--Incubus (arguably) have 'deeper' lyrics and 'better' musicianship than either of those bands.

Sometimes success cannot be predicted, formulated or guaranteed.

Shred, unfortunately, has a rather cheesy image---i blame the 80s, spandex, windswept guitarists soloing next to jet fighters etc etc---some of the non-guitarists ive tried introducing to shred have dismissed it as 'porno music', the technical side doesnt sem to impress them AT ALL and I dont think the media---im not defending the way music is marketed---will ever take shred type music seriously enough to get over this. Believe me, in the UK, if Chris Moyles---fat northern wanker on Radio 1---started raving about Steve Vai's For the Love of God and played it enough, then Vai would all of a sudden be the Next Big Thing. Its this reason precisely why i pay no mind whatsoever to 'mainstream' media=that doesnt mean i automatically dismiss everything on the radio, but i dont like something because a DJ does.


Those who say shred needs lyrics, Ive encountered people who say the same thing, but i dont think thats really the problem---I mean, a lot of dance music is instrumental, yet it gets extremely mainstream---Daft Punk, Chicane etc...---its all about what is deemed 'acceptable' or 'fashionable' by the money-spinning media, it always has been and always will be.

Thats why i give Vai ultimate kudos for Favoured Nations.
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#30
as far as a bands poularity being determined by it's catchyness; i think megadeth is catchy, and they're not nearly as popular as they should be
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Last edited by eviledge87 at Jul 28, 2006,
#31
Ok well I think that we can consider the two guitar players from a band like Dragonforce they are of course better than the average metal band. Now I bought there first albumn when it first came out and I thought it was fantastic. Its not quite like DT but honestly I never thought it would become anything near mainstream. Well I guess I was wrong.

I personally believe that it is marketing. Let me explain....


First they got a huge break getting onto the Ozzfest tour this year. So what will they do next of course... make a ******* music video for MTV. I have to admit that I was actually pleasantly suprised when it first came on. But then when it was over about only four mins later i was pissed. Of course they cut out the majority of the great instumental section of the song to make the video short enough to be played. That is not even a shred tune. People are trying to market them but then they take away the one thing people like them for and that is THE MUSIC.

Ive gone on to much...
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#32
Quote by Led man32
Ok well I think that we can consider the two guitar players from a band like Dragonforce they are of course better than the average metal band.

I personally think there are hundreds of better metal bands.
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#33
I'm not too educated in the world of metal, but I've got to agree with Apoc here.
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#34
What's the "average metal band"?
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#35
Quote by wil
Over-produced, easy on the ear stuff does not necessarily mean automatic success--take Incubus' morning view--that album is produced to HELL and I know it was something of an MTV cash-cow album and sold by the lorry-load, over here it didnt make much of a mainstream impact---why? when Good Charlotte and Blink 182 were all over the radios at their commerical peaks--Incubus (arguably) have 'deeper' lyrics and 'better' musicianship than either of those bands.

You picked on the wrong band to use as an example there Incubus would be my Mastermind speciality subject

You are right, Morning View was very well produced, and there was a lot of money put into making that album... just look at the house they stayed in to record it! However, I tend to think the album wasn't exactly produced like a pop record, the songs don't have the sheen - and in particular the drum sounds don't feel poppy enough for me. I can understand why you bring up this album, but to me I think that they did an amazing job of making a fantastic album, but at the same time keeping a new sound to it. You can really feel the 'Morning View House' and what it was like to live there when you listen to it. In my mind Incubus havn't ever produced a poppy record, and in my opinion one of the reasons that Incubus havn't enjoyed too much commercial success is because of Brandon's accent - he has a very american accent and most Brits I find that listen to it find him far too whiny - a fair comment to be honest.

But anyway... thank you! You made me put Morning View back on and I'm busy loving that right now
#36
Quote by Tom Martin
, the songs don't have the sheen - and in particular the drum sounds don't feel poppy enough for me.



are we talkin bout pop or mainstream?
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#37
Well, both I guess. In general a decent poppy drum beat is pretty much a first class ticket to mainstream music. I don't quite understand what you pointing that out has to do with anything though...?
#38
Take a song like "Keep on Rotting in the Free World" by Carcass and you tell me what makes any of these pop/mainstream bands better/more catchy.

The production/quality is good on it, it's well written, and very catchy.

You are not going to tell me that it is a FACT that any mainstream band has a catchier song than that. I'm not saying this is the be all-end all of catchiness. I'm just using this song as an example. I know there are catchier, better songs than that. But you're not going to tell me that it is a fact. IT IS AN OPINION.

Also tell me the reason why a band like this wouldn't be successful if they had good marketing.
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#39
Quote by Tom Martin
Well, both I guess. In general a decent poppy drum beat is pretty much a first class ticket to mainstream music. I don't quite understand what you pointing that out has to do with anything though...?


So you're saying that any song with a poppy drum beat could be mainstream?
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#40
It could, I think. Depends on what you consider mainstream. If you consider being shown on some show like Headbangers Ball or played on some big jazz radio station or whatever specialist media form as mainstream...then yes. Otherwise, it has to be a song with a poppy drum beat that fits with everything else playing.
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