#3
they're all minor pentatonic, just a different shape played in a different place. scales are really just made up of notes, and cover the entire fretboard. these 'shapes' are just smaller, more managable chunks of the whole thing
#4
i guess they are modes of the pentatonic since they start on differnt notes but i dont think anyone calls them that.
#5
??
If shape 1 of the minor pentatonic starts and ends on a Root note and the others dont i thought there was a term used instead of root position
#6
Quote by Mahavishnu80
??
If shape 1 of the minor pentatonic starts and ends on a Root note and the others dont i thought there was a term used instead of root position



I'm not exactly sure what you're asking. There are 5 minor pentatonic shapes, and they each (by definition) have roots. The root might not necessarily be the lowest note in the shape, however.
#7
i think you would just say it's a minor pentatonic , starting on the 2nd ( or whatever ) scale tone.
#9
You could refer to them by the closest underlying chord shape? i.e. the CAGED system. Fretboard Logic does this I believe. For example, minor pentatonic key of A, the basic shape (the one everyone knows) is in the same position (fifth fret) as the "E" shape barre chord for A. The other four shapes could be seen as related to the D C A and G barre chord shapes for A.

but the short answer to your question is I don't think those shapes are named. And if I am wrong and they do have names, my guess is most guitarists aren't aware of it
#10
Quote by guitarviz
And if I am wrong and they do have names, my guess is most guitarists aren't aware of it
You are wrong (they're called modes) and a lot of us do know that, but that's okay.
#12
Quote by bangoodcharlote
You are wrong (they're called modes) and a lot of us do know that, but that's okay.


He was referring to shapes. Shapes are not modes.
#13
from Fretboard Logic:

"Over the years I've encountered various labeling and coinage for the Five Basic Scale Forms. I believe they have been more or less pasted on my well-meaning but ill-informed guitar teachers. Among them are the Greek modes (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, etc)...."

(snip)

"... the Greek names for modes pertain to a musical concept and have no function on a fretboard unless you choose to limit yourself to playing to and from the E strings starting with a certain finger. (Any teacher who still uses the Greek modes to identify Scale Forms to a beginning guitar student should be flogged.)"

p.s. when he says "forms" he's basically talking shapes
#14
<<my well-meaning but ill-informed guitar teachers>>

oops, typo, should read

*by* well-meaning but ill-informed guitar teachers
#15
If you start a scale on a different note, and end it on the same note but you play all the notes in the original scale (terrible explanation, I know) that's a mode.

In actuality, there is no such thing as a minor scale, it's just a mode of a parent major scale
But... pentatonics really only have two modes the major and the minor because in construction of the pentatonic you skip the notes that would make it a mode. For example, the minor/major pentatonics skip the "dorian sounding" notes, so it's an unfair example.

Example, you can't play D dorian in a C major/Aminor pentatonic (they're the same scale) because you're skipping the 4th/2nd (respectively) and those are the notes over certain chords give dorian some of its tonality.

In actuality, this discussion is pretty moot since pentatonic scales are just the major scale with notes gone from it, technically we should talk about whatever you're playing in terms of the major scale.

Sorry, that's really jumbled.
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#16
Quote by Zhizn
In actuality, there is no such thing as a minor scale, it's just a mode of a parent major scale
How the hell does that make a minor scale non-existant?
#17
Quote by bangoodcharlote
How the hell does that make a minor scale non-existant?


Well, what I'm saying is its not a distinct scale. The only scale we have that's just made up is the major scale, everything else evolves off that.

That is, there's really no explanation for the major scale (since non-Western cultures have done their own scales for hundreds of years that are just as valid), it's just, ok, we did this, that's our postulate. The rest of the scales can be explained in terms of the major, they are the theorems, so to speak, based off of the initial assumption of the correctness of the major scale.
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#18
Starting at any given note in the major scale and ending on that same note an octave higher will give you a pattern as to how that particular mode is *constructed*. But whether it is *heard* as a mode depends completely on underlying tonality.

Example: take the C major scale, start on the second note of the scale (D), and play each note in the scale up to the D an octave higher. That's the sound of D dorian. Play any of the notes within that range over a Dm chord, or a song in Dm, and you still hear the sound of D dorian. But take those same notes and play them over a song in C, and the ear hears C (ionian, i.e. C major scale).

Likewise if you're playing over a song in the key of A, and you shift from the basic minor pentatonic shape (first finger on fifth fret) to the next shape up the neck, you're not playing in a different mode. The ear still hears A minor pentatonic.
#19
<<In actuality, there is no such thing as a minor scale, it's just a mode of a parent major scale>>

There are seven diatonic modes. Two of them (ionian and aeolian) have become so common in western music that most people refer to them simply as a major or minor scale.

<<pentatonics really only have two modes the major and the minor>>

There are actually three other pentatonic modes which are not used very often:
1 2 4 5 b7 8
1 b3 4 b6 b7 8
1 2 4 5 6 8

<<pentatonic scales are just the major scale with notes gone from it>>

a minor pentatonic scale is a minor scale without the 2 and b6.

Everything comes from the octave, not the major scale. Major scales and minor scales and modes in general are simply ways to divide up the octave.

Saying everything comes from the major scale, and that there is no such thing as a minor scale, doesn't make sense.
#20
hey Zhizn, pardon the last comment I made, about you not making sense. I kinda see where you're coming from about how everything is simply a variant on the major scale. But the term "minor scale" is so common among musicians, and in music school it is taught as a separate distinct scale, rather then a variant on the major.

I saw that Billy Joel quote in your sig and that may have influenced my parting response.
#21
Quote by Mahavishnu80
Eg shapes 2-5 of Pentatonic Minor?. Are they called altered or what?


They would be called the 2nd-5th positions of the minor pentatonic scale.

(To everyone arguing about modes here...)

For them to be called modes you'd have to treat the lowest note as the tonic on each position, which is nothing to do with the question. The positions are not modes and vice versa - no matter how long i play in the 2nd position of the minor pentatonic, i am NOT playing the major pentatonic.
#22
Quote by Freepower
They would be called the 2nd-5th positions of the minor pentatonic scale.

(To everyone arguing about modes here...)

For them to be called modes you'd have to treat the lowest note as the tonic on each position, which is nothing to do with the question. The positions are not modes and vice versa - no matter how long i play in the 2nd position of the minor pentatonic, i am NOT playing the major pentatonic.


It's the chords they are layered over that give the modes their tonality. Playing D E F G A B C D til you're blue in the face without a backdrop of chords won't give you a dorian tonality.
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#23
Quote by guitarviz


Everything comes from the octave, not the major scale. Major scales and minor scales and modes in general are simply ways to divide up the octave.



Everything comes from the octave, yes, but the octave is not arbitrary, an octave is by definition a set range of pitches. The way we SLICE the octave, like in our major scale, into 12 different notes... well, that's completely arbitrary. It could be 16 notes, it could be 8, it could be 24 if you wanted it to be. That's why I'm saying everything comes from the major scale.
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#24
but why call that scale, that arbitrary slicing, major instead of minor?

are you giving second class citizenship to minor ?

off I go on vacation.
#25
Quote by Zhizn
It's the chords they are layered over that give the modes their tonality. Playing D E F G A B C D til you're blue in the face without a backdrop of chords won't give you a dorian tonality.


No, but playing D E D F D G D, or similarly making it melodically obvious that D is the tonic will... Playing it over something like Dm, G, F would certainly help though.

Why did you feel the need to say that, anyhoo?

Quote by Zhizn
Everything comes from the octave, yes, but the octave is not arbitrary, an octave is by definition a pair of notes in which the higher note has a pitch exactly double the one below . The way we SLICE the octave, like in our chromatic scale, into 12 different notes...


He's just asking why you can't say everything is built off, say, the phrygian mode, as opposed to the ionian.

(Its just a convention mate, its not like it makes a practical difference...)
#26
Quote by Freepower
No, but playing D E D F D G D, or similarly making it melodically obvious that D is the tonic will... Playing it over something like Dm, G, F would certainly help though.

Why did you feel the need to say that, anyhoo?


He's just asking why you can't say everything is built off, say, the phrygian mode, as opposed to the ionian.

(Its just a convention mate, its not like it makes a practical difference...)


Either way, back to the issue at hand... uhh... what was it?
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