#1
Hey all,
Last night, I decided to take a look at some modes and write some chord progressions for some.

This got me thinking. I know that to end a song, you can have an authentic cadence (V-I)
But what type of cadence would you use to emphasis the feeling of a mode?
I hope that made sence

What i mean, is lets take the Harmonic Minor scale.
I know that it sounds exotic. When I play this scale, I understand that its the minor 6th and Major 7th which help to emphasis the exotic sound in it.

So lets take this theory, and use it in modes of the major scale (Im most interested in Phrygian and Aeolian).

How would I incorporate this into finding out cadences?
Also, can anyone help me in finding other patterns, such as the one i mentioned above, but in other modes?


Any help will be a great help.
Thanks in advance.
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#2
Doesn't look like anyone is going to answer you Logz, so I'll try and give some input, however basic it might be.

Look at like this... in C Major, the I will always be the tonic and resolving to this will make the listeners ear think the progression is in C Major. To bring out the mode, you have to *trick* the listeners ear into thinking the tonality lies elsewhere.

So if you're using modal tonality, you want to avoid using the resolution to what you know was the tonal center of the progression.

I'll do all this with I-IV-V prog in C so you can basically see how it works on a very basic level.

You know Lydian is the fourth mode of C Major - the IV - so replace the I with the IV and use it as your replacment tonic, then playing the V chord as your second chord in the progression - that way you keep a strong hold to the IV and and then forming an even stronger alliance by keeping the root note of the IV playing in the bass.

In C... the IV would be F Major and the V would be G Major... but, if we play Fmaj - Gmaj/F... it sets up F as the tonic and gives you that Lydian vibe that you're looking to bring out in your progression.

You can think of it another way... F Lydian = F G A B C D E F is different to F Major in that the 4th is # - Bb to B - and it's this note that is going to work in your favour and bring out the Lydian sound.

So when you're playing G Major over the F bass note - because it contains the B you're re-inforcing the Lydian tonality and 'emphasising the feeling of the mode'.

That's just a pretty basic run through of how I've come to understand bringing out the sound of the mode in the accompanying chord progression but I'm sure someone like Red or Cor will come in from different angles and give something a little bit more comprehensive.

#3
Actually, that was really helpful for modal progressions

But something about cadences would be very useful also.

EDIT: Congratulations to Logz as well
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Last edited by loonyguitarist at Aug 3, 2006,
#5
awesome cheers john Ill give that a go when i get home from work (its too early in the morning to get the guitar out lol)

Thanks alot though
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#6
Quote by Johnljones7443
Doesn't look like anyone is going to answer you Logz, so I'll try and give some input, however basic it might be.

Look at like this... in C Major, the I will always be the tonic and resolving to this will make the listeners ear think the progression is in C Major. To bring out the mode, you have to *trick* the listeners ear into thinking the tonality lies elsewhere.

So if you're using modal tonality, you want to avoid using the resolution to what you know was the tonal center of the progression.

I'll do all this with I-IV-V prog in C so you can basically see how it works on a very basic level.

You know Lydian is the fourth mode of C Major - the IV - so replace the I with the IV and use it as your replacment tonic, then playing the V chord as your second chord in the progression - that way you keep a strong hold to the IV and and then forming an even stronger alliance by keeping the root note of the IV playing in the bass.

In C... the IV would be F Major and the V would be G Major... but, if we play Fmaj - Gmaj/F... it sets up F as the tonic and gives you that Lydian vibe that you're looking to bring out in your progression.

You can think of it another way... F Lydian = F G A B C D E F is different to F Major in that the 4th is # - Bb to B - and it's this note that is going to work in your favour and bring out the Lydian sound.

So when you're playing G Major over the F bass note - because it contains the B you're re-inforcing the Lydian tonality and 'emphasising the feeling of the mode'.

That's just a pretty basic run through of how I've come to understand bringing out the sound of the mode in the accompanying chord progression but I'm sure someone like Red or Cor will come in from different angles and give something a little bit more comprehensive.



Just a quick question though, with what you are doing, replacing the I with the IV. . . . you would then just have a simple IV V progression, except the V would be in third inversion, and what would happen to your other chords? you show two chords being played, the IV and the V and if the IV becomes the one, then you are playing a I II progression except with your II being of the dominant key. I agree it would show the tonality of the Lydian, because of the third inversion and all. . . but I must ask, what happened to the I IV V progression? You say I becomes IV, so then you would have I. . . but your IV would be B and your V would be C, nevermind, I don't think I'm making sense to myself anymore, but maybe you catch what I'm saying.
#7
Quote by notsee
Just a quick question though, with what you are doing, replacing the I with the IV. . . . you would then just have a simple IV V progression, except the V would be in third inversion, and what would happen to your other chords? you show two chords being played, the IV and the V and if the IV becomes the one, then you are playing a I II progression except with your II being of the dominant key. I agree it would show the tonality of the Lydian, because of the third inversion and all. . . but I must ask, what happened to the I IV V progression? You say I becomes IV, so then you would have I. . . but your IV would be B and your V would be C, nevermind, I don't think I'm making sense to myself anymore, but maybe you catch what I'm saying.


You're not replacing the I with the IV as such, because well - you're still in the same key, C Major.

What you're doing is tricking the listeners into thinking the key is now F... the perceivable tonality of the piece changes to F, but still remains in C Major - you're holding on to the F for long enough to confuse the listeners ear into hearing the mode instead of the parent scale.

You're strictly playing a IV-V in C Major, but the mode is called F Lydian. You're not completely changing key and modulating, you're simply letting the tonality drift back and forth in the listeners ear.

Then if you wanted to *return* to C Major, you'd simply back off the two chord progression and lead into the I and be *back* in C Major.

C Major = F Lydian... same notes and all that, so it's only by changing the chord sound you can temporarily enforce the sound of the mode.

It's basically just about how long you hang onto the chord of the moment for... say if you played through CMajor - FMajor - G7 in two bars (the I-IV-V)... even though you might emply modal playing the piece is always going to sound like it's in C Major, even though you could argue you used F Lydian over the F and G Mixolydian of the G7... you're not hanging on to those chords long enough for the modal tonality to come through.

If you play the I-IV-V and then wait on the G7 for say four bars, that might be long enough for people to hear the tonality of the Mixolydian sound coming through. You could re-inforce that by having a bassline that really grooves the G... then, bang back down to your I C Major chord to return to C Major.

Last edited by Johnljones7443 at Aug 4, 2006,
#8
John, I'm reading this, and I think I understand what you're trying to say.

However, the F Lydian has the same exact notes as the C major scale, am I not correct? The only difference is the root. I understand the "trick key change" and how that works but how emphasizing the Lydian going to make the song sound any different? Are we emphasizing the C Lydian here, or the F Lydian?

Nice post, btw.
#9
Well, now that you cleared it up, it makes sense, and I got what you were trying to say prior because I was stupid when I was learning and learned modal stuff prior to actually learning chord progressions. It was just a bit fuzzy in the first post, hence my questioning and thank you for clearing that up.
#10
What john is saying is 100% correct and elequently put.

I'd just like to throw in a suggestion to try and think of F lydian as F major, but with a raised 4th. John certainly mentioned that, but he still said the key was C major. My theory is that the key is actually F major, with a B natural used every time instead of a Bb. This will get you to see that F is truely the tonal center. This is going for a piece of music staying entirely in the lydian mode of course.
#11
Well, the point with modal thinking is, (for example) if there's a constant Fchord looping, you don't want to think in the key of Cmajor. You should relate everything to the chord and I think that's where the whole problem lies with the most beginners in modal playing
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#12
Modes are probably the easiest thing to get, once you understand each ones unique formula and learn to view them as a major or a minor or a major minor(dominant, but relative to scale pricks call it the major minor). . . as far as stuff like erm, parellel sixth chords and stuff to line your bass out, that is where chord progressions and cadences become semi-mind boggling. That was my very least favorite part of theory class, where you have to line up so that your bass line contours with each shape and perhaps even creates a walk if you will. . . . that is parellel sixth chords mostly but then there was some other stuff we had to do, I can't remember off the top of my head for the bass line, and of course. . . hated SATB, that is the stupidest thing ever, especially when you have to go by the rules of classical music, and end up writing the cheesiest crap ever.