#1
first off, i appologize if this has been beaten like a red-headed stepchild. I wish i could take a snapshot of my fretboard because it would be so much easer to explain. I'll try and make it simple. here's what i learned about modes:

basically a mode is a particular cross-section of the fretboard (from low E to high E) that comprises the notes that define a particular scale. this is what i learned:

In the Key of G
Ionian:
E - 2_3__5 (F-sharp, G, A)
A - 2_3__5 (B, C, D)
D - 2_4__5 (E, F-sharp, G)
G - 2_4__5 (A... etc. etc...)
B - 3__5
E - 2_3__5

Dorian:
E - 5__7_8
A - 5_7
D - 4_5__7
G - 4_5__7
B - 5__7_8
E - 5__7_8

extrapolating the remaining modes, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aolian, locrean.

Hence, to get the A scale, all the patternes are shifted up 1 whole step. B, another whole step. C, 1 half step.

but then i read this:

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/soloing/using_modes_to_compose_solos.html

and the nexus of my reality is fractured.

the author of this lesson states that all the modes are in the key of A (A, B, C?, D, E, F?, G?), his Ionian mode starts out fine, but in his Dorian mode things get really wacky right around the NON-sharped C-note (3rd fret, A string). and then his NON-sharped G-note (5th fret, D-string)

can someone please explain?
#2
Huh?

Well...in the key of A...all the modes are just the A major scale starting off on a different note. Contains all the same notes.

That what you mean?
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#3
well to stay in the key of, say, G, you go G Ionian, A Dorian, B Phrygian etc all the way up the G scale, and all the notes in these modes are the same. however G Ionian and G Dorian would be in different keys. you dig?
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#4
I learnt them all as 3 notes per string scales. Much easier to remember I think.

Beaten like a red-heaired step-child...hehe.
#5
Quote by sethp
but then i read this:

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/soloing/using_modes_to_compose_solos.html

and the nexus of my reality is fractured.

sigged, btw XD
"You are amazed that it is so easy to infect men with the war fever, and you surmise that man has in him an active instinct for hatred and destruction... I entirely agree with you."

--Sigmund Freud in a letter to Albert Einstein

#6
i play 4-notes per string cuz i think it's better to not rely on shapes.
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#7
i combine shapes and reply on the underlying chords or bass note to get the sound of the mode out.
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#8
thanks for your responses. things are cleared up... and muddied.

Quote by Dan Steinman
well to stay in the key of, say, G, you go G Ionian, A Dorian, B Phrygian etc all the way up the G scale, and all the notes in these modes are the same. however G Ionian and G Dorian would be in different keys. you dig?


"G Ionian" refers to the "shape" of this mode when starting on the root note?

and another question, are the aolean and locrean, in your universe just copies of ionian and dorian, only 1 octave higher?

ugh, no, in my world G Ionian and G Dorian are both in the key of G, they just have different "shapes"
#9
Quote by sethp
thanks for your responses. things are cleared up... and muddied.


"G Ionian" refers to the "shape" of this mode when starting on the root note?

and another question, are the aolean and locrean, in your universe just copies of ionian and dorian, only 1 octave higher?

ugh, no, in my world G Ionian and G Dorian are both in the key of G, they just have different "shapes"


G Ionian and G Dorian aren't in the same key.

G Ionian is in the key of G major, G Dorian is in the key of F major.


[B]G Ionian[/B]: G - A - B - C - D - E - F# - G.
[B]G Dorian[/B]: G - A - Bb - C - D - E - F - G.


I don't know what you mean by 'copes of Ionian & Dorian once octave higher', sorry.
#10
then it looks to me like the Dorian mode is the harmonic minor of the ionian mode. is this correct?
#11
Quote by sethp
then it looks to me like the Dorian mode is the harmonic minor of the ionian mode. is this correct?
This is amazing! How much more confusion could we possibly generate about this very straightforward concept? (I am not picking on you here, sethp)

Please, do yourself a huge favor and immediately and right now ditch the "shape" approach to scales, modes, and whatever other concept to which you're contemplating applying them. "Shapes" will abandon you and leave you desolate and heartbroken just when you need them most, namely right in the middle of a solo in front of an important audience.

Instead of learning any more "shapes", take whatever time and effort are necessary to build, first, an understanding of the major scale / Ionian mode: W W H W W W H. Get this so firmly into your mind and ears and then and only then worry about getting it into your fingers.

Once you're solid there, start on the Dorian mode: W H W W W H W. Get it into your mind and ears before you even think about getting it into your fingers.

Continue like this through the rest of the modes. When at last the Locrian mode is as familiar to your...

1. mind,
2. ears, and finally your
3. fingers

as is the Ionian mode, you won't ever again have to torture yourself with these convoluted musings on modes.

This confusion has to be the result of trying to using tabs to learn theory. If this is how you're trying to learn theory, give it up, guys. Tablature was never intended to convey theory information - it can't, doesn't and won't do it.
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#12
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Last edited by sethp at Sep 14, 2006,
#13
^ Interesting post gpb0216. You sure are right about how tab cannot teach theory. As a matter of fact tab cannot show anything about "why" -- it just shows "how".

But I'm not sure I agree with your complete dismissal of shapes as a learning tool. Think of how most people start to learn to solo: they memorize the basic minor pentatonic shape. Are they thinking 1 - b3 - 4 - 5 - b7? Doubt it. Maybe if they have a good teacher, or a theory background, but I think most just view it as a visual pattern on the neck? at least when starting. But at least it gets them started, right?

However you are of course right that shapes can only take you so far, and at some point you have to understand the theory behind the shapes if you really want to become a complete player.

The interesting thing of course is that many of the guitar greats never made it to above stage (theory). How can they be such fantastic players? Who knows.

My own personal theory is that they develop subconsciously what the rest of us have to learn consciously: an instinct for interval/scale degree, i.e. theory. IOW they may not be able to verbalize that they are playing a b3, or b7, or whatever, but they hear it in their heads and they know where on the neck to put their fingers, relative to the current note or chord or key, to get the sound they hear in their heads.

But that's just my theory
#14
Quote by Evil_Empire24-7
i play 4-notes per string cuz i think it's better to not rely on shapes.



I learn new keys by memorizing the notes then playing the notes up and down each string, then figuring out what arpeggios are in the key and where, then i try some shapes.
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