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#1
If God is truly omniscient (has complete foreknowledge) then he knows in advance what my choices will be every time I make a decision.
If he knows in advance what my choices will be then I do not see how I in fact have any freedom at all - because I am in fact constrained to choose that which he already knows in advance I will choose in each case - and I have no freedom to do anything else other than that which he already knows in advance.

If on the other hand I am free to choose to do something which is contrary to what God "knows in advance my choice will be" - then he in fact does not know my choice in advance - therefore he does not have complete foreknowledge (is not omniscient).

The inescapable conclusion seems to be that God's omniscience is incompatible with human free will.

What do you guys think? And if you have a logical solution to this problem, let me know, I'm just looking for a good debate.
#2
You have the choice to do whatever you want,but Gods just one step ahead.
Zebra! llll llll llll llll llll

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#4
A logical solution?


There is no god.
Thats right... I said it!
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#5
you also have another choice, take it to the religion forum or prepare for maximum flamage...


or take the 3rd and give me the greatest of buttsecks and i might spare you...
Holy crap, my UG account still exists?
#6
its a rhetorical question, so there really is no correct answer because there is no way to know if god exists, or if he indeed is omniscient.

and to imSpecial2... Western NY FTW!
#8
Then perhaps we just have no free will

Theres no need to worry about it, just go with the flow


Well, if we don't have free will, then isn't it safe to say that God has predetermined whether we are going to hell or not?
#10
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you stole my joke.
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#11
I wanna rape a leprechaun.
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#12
regardless whether god would know does not really matter. everything that happens is inevitable anyway.
#13
omniscient isnt foreknowledge

einstien didnt have ESP
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#14
"I've visited thirty-one inhabited planets in the universe... Only on Earth is there any talk of free will".

Vonnegut is awesome.
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#15
Quote by flaming_frets08
Well, if we don't have free will, then isn't it safe to say that God has predetermined whether we are going to hell or not?


thats what the Calvinists (i think?) believe, that there is predestination and you're basically screwed. thankfully, i'm not a calvinist
#16
Quote by flaming_frets08
If God is truly omniscient (has complete foreknowledge) then he knows in advance what my choices will be every time I make a decision.
If he knows in advance what my choices will be then I do not see how I in fact have any freedom at all - because I am in fact constrained to choose that which he already knows in advance I will choose in each case - and I have no freedom to do anything else other than that which he already knows in advance.

If on the other hand I am free to choose to do something which is contrary to what God "knows in advance my choice will be" - then he in fact does not know my choice in advance - therefore he does not have complete foreknowledge (is not omniscient).

The inescapable conclusion seems to be that God's omniscience is incompatible with human free will.

What do you guys think? And if you have a logical solution to this problem, let me know, I'm just looking for a good debate.


how do you know it is a he, you shovenistic, sexcist, pignaistic son of a bitch

and no i am not a girl
#17
There is no free will on account of the fact that we all have personality. We all make descisions etc. depending on this. If you could somehow clone a person lots and have them make the same descision, they would all make it the same due to their being who they are.

You could say all our actions are merely a huge, amazing epic chain of events set into action by the very creation of the universe. One atom hits another, makes protein chains, thanks to this life evolves, becomes you...so on.

This also means you cannot travel back in time. Even if you could, it was predestined, and you will not change the outcome. (mainly as it has already happened. Wheee, paradox!)

Trust me, I give a great deal of thought to these things.

Free will and God and suchlike are merely abstract concepts that arise as a survival mechanism. The human brain cannot comprehend the fact that it is merely a large, complicated chemical reaction, and so we develop concepts such as "Thought" and "Soul"; or come to terms with the fact that it exists for soley that reason- to continue existing.

That, good sirs, is my opinion.
Last edited by Vermintide at Jan 29, 2007,
#18
how do you know it is a he, you shovenistic, sexcist, pignaistic son of a bitch

and no i am not a girl


alright, then i'll call it "it"
#19
Quote by wingedgopher
"I've visited thirty-one inhabited planets in the universe... Only on Earth is there any talk of free will".

Vonnegut is awesome.



slaughterhouse 5 ftw!

i wrote a wicked paper on that book
Quote by its_alive
Lighten up.

The Pit>Professionals


Quote by meh!
Wow, the rape wagon. The wagon sounds like the best wagon in town
#21
Quote by flaming_frets08
If God is truly omniscient (has complete foreknowledge) then he knows in advance what my choices will be every time I make a decision.
If he knows in advance what my choices will be then I do not see how I in fact have any freedom at all - because I am in fact constrained to choose that which he already knows in advance I will choose in each case - and I have no freedom to do anything else other than that which he already knows in advance.

If on the other hand I am free to choose to do something which is contrary to what God "knows in advance my choice will be" - then he in fact does not know my choice in advance - therefore he does not have complete foreknowledge (is not omniscient).

The inescapable conclusion seems to be that God's omniscience is incompatible with human free will.

What do you guys think? And if you have a logical solution to this problem, let me know, I'm just looking for a good debate.

Great debate? You sound like you just learned this from your highschool 'intro. to philosophy' class and so you feel like you're a smartass now.

Give up while you're ahead and don't try to make it seem like you totally came up with this yourself, kid.

A reply to this would be that God lives outside of time and our dimension. You could say that you've made all your choices the instant you were born and God judged you from there.
#22
I look at it this way.

I have a little brother. I know he loves cookies. He always wants one when I offer him one. So if I say to him "do you want a cookie?" I know that he will say yes. He has the free will to say no, but I know he won't. If there is a God, he probably sees all choices we face in the same manner. God would know everything, so every little decission we make such as what to order off the menu is to him like me asking my brother if he wants a cookie. He knows what is going to happen, but there is still a choice.
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#23
Quote by flaming_frets08
If God is truly omniscient (has complete foreknowledge) then he knows in advance what my choices will be every time I make a decision.
If he knows in advance what my choices will be then I do not see how I in fact have any freedom at all - because I am in fact constrained to choose that which he already knows in advance I will choose in each case - and I have no freedom to do anything else other than that which he already knows in advance.

If on the other hand I am free to choose to do something which is contrary to what God "knows in advance my choice will be" - then he in fact does not know my choice in advance - therefore he does not have complete foreknowledge (is not omniscient).

The inescapable conclusion seems to be that God's omniscience is incompatible with human free will.

What do you guys think? And if you have a logical solution to this problem, let me know, I'm just looking for a good debate.


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#24
Quote by flaming_frets08
If God is truly omniscient (has complete foreknowledge) then he knows in advance what my choices will be every time I make a decision.
If he knows in advance what my choices will be then I do not see how I in fact have any freedom at all - because I am in fact constrained to choose that which he already knows in advance I will choose in each case - and I have no freedom to do anything else other than that which he already knows in advance.

I believe God has to power to know what you will do, but do not do it.
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Genesis 22:12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," [the LORD] said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."


Quote by flaming_frets08
If on the other hand I am free to choose to do something which is contrary to what God "knows in advance my choice will be" - then he in fact does not know my choice in advance - therefore he does not have complete foreknowledge (is not omniscient).

This goes back to the theory of Matrix Reloaded philosophy. You have already made every choice you will ever make in your life. And just because you have free will, that does not mean God doesn't know what you think.
#25
Quote by E Daws
I look at it this way.

I have a little brother. I know he loves cookies. He always wants one when I offer him one. So if I say to him "do you want a cookie?" I know that he will say yes. He has the free will to say no, but I know he won't. If there is a God, he probably sees all choices we face in the same manner. God would know everything, so every little decission we make such as what to order off the menu is to him like me asking my brother if he wants a cookie. He knows what is going to happen, but there is still a choice.


But here's where philosophy comes in, is it really a choice if he is definitely gonna say yes?
#26
Quote by Vermintide
There is no free will on account of the fact that we all have personality. We all make descisions etc. depending on this. If you could somehow clone a person lots and have them make the same descision, they would all make it the same due to their being who they are.

You could say all our actions are merely a huge, amazing epic chain of events set into action by the very creation of the universe. One atom hits another, makes protein chains, thanks to this life evolves, becomes you...so on.

This also means you cannot travel back in time. Even if you could, it was predestined, and you will not change the outcome. (mainly as it has already happened. Wheee, paradox!)

Trust me, I give a great deal of thought to these things.

Free will and God and suchlike are merely abstract concepts that arise as a survival mechanism. The human brain cannot comprehend the fact that it is merely a large, complicated chemical reaction, and so we develop concepts such as "Thought" and "Soul"; or come to terms with the fact that it exists for soley that reason- to continue existing.

That, good sirs, is my opinion.


exactly
#27
my brain hurts....

ive never thought about this stuff..


i live life worry free..


i think everyone else should do the same..


(and no.. im not saying go break laws and stuff... im just saying live how you want...its the only way to stay happy.)

otherwise you'll just be a nervous wreck your whole life..
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#28
Quote by GibsonRocker14
my brain hurts....

ive never thought about this stuff..


i live life worry free..


i think everyone else should do the same..


(and no.. im not saying go break laws and stuff... im just saying live how you want...its the only way to stay happy.)

otherwise you'll just be a nervous wreck your whole life..



They say ignorance is a bliss
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Obviously I'm biased towards the correct point of view. What kind of retard isn't?


#31
Okay, to this whole thread.....

If there is a god and he is truly omnicient, and taking what the bible said, he picked and knows all of our actions. Therefore logically thinkning, he has picked who is and who isnt going to hell. What kind of God is that? Does that make sense? Basically he created us(Pretending that this whole christian thing is true) To send us to hell.

So that just proves that either
a) The bible is full of contridictions
b)God is a mean kid sitting on top f an anthill
Quote by Meths

Obviously I'm biased towards the correct point of view. What kind of retard isn't?


#32
I kind of like Vermintide's train of thought.
A lot of people ask themselves that question because they can't comprehend that maybe there is no God. They also tend to forget that when you talk about existence, you have to talk universally, and by that I mean that you can't consider "good" or "bad" in any situation.
That's the problem with many religions today. they mix existence with ethics, and that's a big no-no.
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#33
Quote by somethingcool76
slaughterhouse 5 ftw!

i wrote a wicked paper on that book



+1 so it goes...
#34
if god is, well , godly, then she probably has an immense capacity for knoledge and memory, if so, she knowes every descision you MIGHT make and leaves it up to circumtance wich one you do. so she knowes what you WILL do and about a milion things you WONT do.
the only problom i see is, and please exuse me all of you who are religious,(i spelled that wrong) but DO YOU REALY THINK SHE CARES? look at the state of the world, war, evil ect. if god gave a care, would she let humans treat each other(and other animals, plants, minerals ect.) with such contempt and blatent disrespect? now we have a debate.

also, in respnse to the THERE IS NO GOD theory, explain existans. thought, life, it makes no scientific sense to me. now im not a religious person, but the universe had to come from somewhere, god is as likely an explanation as any other. but on the other hand, if god made the universe, WHERE DID GOD COME FROME?????
#36
if god made the universe, WHERE DID GOD COME FROME?????

I believe that if god exists, then god must be a form of energy, energy is everywhere, you cant see it, but it affects your life. I don't believe energy is created, or destroyed, only transferred. You get energy from food, you die, energy goes back into the ground, and a plant sucks it up and you eat it again.
Last edited by flaming_frets08 at Jan 29, 2007,
#37
Quote by somethingcool76
omniscient isnt foreknowledge

einstien didnt have ESP


Einstien Played guitar ?
Wolv
#38
Quote by imSpecial2
You have the choice to do whatever you want,but Gods just one step ahead.

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#39
Quote by flaming_frets08
If God is truly omniscient (has complete foreknowledge) then he knows in advance what my choices will be every time I make a decision.
If he knows in advance what my choices will be then I do not see how I in fact have any freedom at all - because I am in fact constrained to choose that which he already knows in advance I will choose in each case - and I have no freedom to do anything else other than that which he already knows in advance.

If on the other hand I am free to choose to do something which is contrary to what God "knows in advance my choice will be" - then he in fact does not know my choice in advance - therefore he does not have complete foreknowledge (is not omniscient).

The inescapable conclusion seems to be that God's omniscience is incompatible with human free will.

What do you guys think? And if you have a logical solution to this problem, let me know, I'm just looking for a good debate.



Perhaps god knows that you will choose to do something that you think is what in contrary to what he planned for you
Wolv
#40
Quote by E Daws
I look at it this way.

I have a little brother. I know he loves cookies. He always wants one when I offer him one. So if I say to him "do you want a cookie?" I know that he will say yes. He has the free will to say no, but I know he won't. If there is a God, he probably sees all choices we face in the same manner. God would know everything, so every little decission we make such as what to order off the menu is to him like me asking my brother if he wants a cookie. He knows what is going to happen, but there is still a choice.


Did you create your little brother? Did you decide whether he'd naturally have the taste for cookies?
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