#1
Since the previous thread on this subject was full of complete idiocy and nobody bothered to really touch on this question, I think it deserves its own thread: what exactly is the nature of homosexuality. To what extent is it an uncontrolable urge and to what extent is it governed by what you do therefore controlable. Once we establish its position on this spectrum (somewhere in between the natural color of your hair and what shirt you choose to where for the day) we can effectively address what protection as a concept it should be given.
Before I start in with my stance, I'd like to say one thing: please no idiocy. This means no flaming, no pointless posts, in short only post a clear well-thought out argument. Also, this is the purely theoretical debate; I'm not touching on the financial aspect right now; it's complicated enough as it is.
Firstly, the question of "What is homosexuality?" needs to be addressed. Western Illinois University posits the following definition:
Someone who has a continuing erotic preference for and is sexually attracted to partners of the same sex and (usually) chooses to act on those feelings.
(http://www.wiu.edu/UCOSO/what_is.htm)
So, homosexuality consists of two things: what you feel and what you do about it, just like every other action; if you were to really piss me off, I might really want to smack you but should I go ahead and be charged with assault for that? No, because I didn't do anything about my feelings of agression.
In trying to place homosexuality on the scrutiny spectrum we should also consider the impact to society. Reports show that successful heterosexual marriages consistently extend the life of both men and women, putting them in the hospital less often. So, heterosexual marriage has been shown to have a positive impact on society. Since I haven't seen any evidence showing the impact of homosexual marriages one way or another, we'll leave that out for now unless someone has some which would be nice. This differs from something like race, which is totally out of the individual's control and means little if anything; racial stareotypes are all culturally constructed as opposed to being intrinsically tied to the race factor.
Heterosexual marriages also have the ability to create new life, something that no homosexual can ever do; this results from the fact that the two sexes complament each other by design.
</rambling rant>
So, discuss: where does sexual orientation and in particular homosexuality fall? Personally I still have yet to fully work it out though based on what I've read so far I tend to think that homosexuality and heterosexuality are not on the exact same position; I argue that homosexuality is a condition that ought to be treated with respect but not the same way as standard heterosexuality.
#3
Quote by ameer
Illinois University posits the following definition:
Someone who has a continuing erotic preference for and is sexually attracted to partners of the same sex and (usually) chooses to act on those feelings.
(http://www.wiu.edu/UCOSO/what_is.htm)



What annoys me about that 'definition' is that it just refers to sexual want.

Being gay, isn't just about sexual lust. For example, there's lots of celibate gay couples.
#4
This thread was done already; making another one and expecting a different result is silly.
Death to Ovation haters!
#5
Quote by Dobzilla
What annoys me about that 'definition' is that it just refers to sexual want.

Being gay, isn't just about sexual lust. For example, there's lots of celibate gay couples.

Can you elaborate?
#6
Quote by PatchworkMan
This thread was done already; making another one and expecting a different result is silly.


The last one was basically people arguing with Constantine. Now stop moaning and voice your beliefs and / or your opinions.

Quote by ameer
Can you elaborate?


Well, how would you define a relationship?

In my opinion for a relationship to exist, there has to be feelings towards another being. It's not just about sexual gratification.
Last edited by Dobzilla at Feb 17, 2007,
#7
If you want a real answer, ask someone who is actually gay. The only UGer I know who is, is Dorkus, so hope that he spots this thread.
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#8
I think the nature of homosexual attraction is the same as heterosexual attraction, it varies for individuals. I see stories about gay romance that's never consumated, but still exists. I heard about some writer, I forget the name, who was in love with another man, and throughout his entire life struggled with this. He was great friends with the guy and kept near him for decades, but could never tell him the truth, until his death. Tell me that's not love.
#9
Quote by Dobzilla
The last one was basically people arguing with Constantine. Now stop moaning and voice your beliefs and / or your opinions.


Well, how would you define a relationship?

In my opinion for a relationship to exist, there has to be feelings towards another being. It's not just about sexual gratification.

Right. There's a whole other spectrum for relationships based on the intensity and degree of feeling towards the intended target; sexual gratification is usually a culmination of those feelings. However, it's not the only means of expression, just one of the more intense.
#10
Quote by GoodNite_AmyLee
If you want a real answer, ask someone who is actually gay. The only UGer I know who is, is Dorkus, so hope that he spots this thread.
Of course I'd spot this thread. Gaydar works in more than one way.

If you want to know my little story, here it is: Ever since about 7th grade (a little after puberty began), I started being sexually attracted to other guys. I never have been sexually attracted to girls. I can't control it. I tried to make myself be straight up until 10th grade, which is when I finally said that I wasn't having a phase or anything of the sort. Had I been given a choice in the matter, I'd have been straight (although, if I were given the choice now, I think I wouldn't change).
#11
Quote by DorkusMalorkus
Of course I'd spot this thread. Gaydar works in more than one way.

If you want to know my little story, here it is: Ever since about 7th grade (a little after puberty began), I started being sexually attracted to other guys. I never have been sexually attracted to girls. I can't control it. I tried to make myself be straight up until 10th grade, which is when I finally said that I wasn't having a phase or anything of the sort. Had I been given a choice in the matter, I'd have been straight (although, if I were given the choice now, I think I wouldn't change).


Sorry for analysing you... But would you describe that as a hormonal imbalance?

Or do you believe it's something different about the human being, other than that? Something like, there's more to us than chemicals?

Background information; Prenatal hormonal theory:

Quote by wikipedia

The neurobiology of the masculinization of the brain is fairly well understood. Estradiol, and testosterone, which is catalyzed by the enzyme 5α-reductase into dihydrotestosterone, act upon androgen receptors in the brain to masculinize it. If there are few androgen receptors (people with Androgen insensitivity syndrome) or too much androgen (females with Congenital adrenal hyperplasia) there can be physical and psychological effects.[5] It has been suggested that both male and female homosexuality are results of variation in this process.[6] In these studies lesbianism is typically linked with a higher amount of masculinization than is found in heterosexual females, though when dealing with male homosexuality there are results supporting both higher and lower degrees of masculinization than heterosexual males.

..
#12
So maybe the spectrum is 3D; the degree to which you feel given feelings, the intensity of your action on those feelings, and the corolation between the intensity and result of those feelings. You could act intensely on feelings that are not that intense, or hold back on extremely intense feelings as shown above. Kinda hard to wrap your head around, but whatever.
#13
well im bi..does that count?


mm i think its a characteristic rather than a choice....how you feel about certain things isnt a choice. It goes deeper than that. I dont think its a "mental problem" either. Well, maybe its a mental "condition", but not in a derogatory sense. Its hard to explain. Its just how you are. What is normal? Is being hetero normal? Nothing is normal.....its like color of your skin. What is a race? It is a place of origin, but where does racism develop? Ignorance. Race has nothing to do with anything, and color has nothing to do with anything. Its just how you are. Sexuality is the same way.
#15
Quote by Dobzilla
Sorry for analysing you... But would you describe that as a hormonal imbalance?

Or do you believe it's something different about the human being, other than that? Something like, there's more to us than chemicals?

Background information; Prenatal hormonal theory:


..

Haha, no problem. I've always thought that it was something biological (but not genetic). Hormonal imbalance has always been the most probable in my mind.
#16
Quote by Dobzilla
^ That's the most educated post I've ever seen you do.

me? Well thank you if you are talking about me. I might seem ignorant and stupid, but I really do have a brain, and i do use it to think things out.
#17
^^^^ That's debateable, because the impact of sexuality can yield children where as the impact of race yields little if anything (anybody know if those studies on racial susceptibility to various diseases are real or hyp?)
#18
There's a good site about the nature of sexuality here:
http://www.borngayprocon.org/
Check it out if you're interested. It presents arguments from both sides in an unbiased view.

I may come back to have a discussion on this topic later, it's osmething that interests me, but right now I'll just read and get some more opinions on the matter.
The will to neither strive nor cry,
The power to feel with others give.
Calm, calm me more; nor let me die
Before I have begun to live.

-Matthew Arnold

Arguments are to be avoided; they are always vulgar and often convincing.
#19
Quote by Dinkydaisy
There's a good site about the nature of sexuality here:
http://www.borngayprocon.org/
Check it out if you're interested. It presents arguments from both sides in an unbiased view.

I may come back to have a discussion on this topic later, it's osmething that interests me, but right now I'll just read and get some more opinions on the matter.



First thing I saw on that was "Nature or nurture?"

I like this argument. The whole, if there were no external factors involved with the upraising of a child, would they be straight?

Dob-Edit:

Quote by ameer
What biological merrits do you think it has, assuming no societal constructs? Do you think it to be a problem or just a difference in position? Do you also believe it to be a two-part definition involving both feelings and action (possibly with some reference to the correlation of those two)?


Dumb it down a little for people like me?
#20
Quote by DorkusMalorkus
Haha, no problem. I've always thought that it was something biological (but not genetic). Hormonal imbalance has always been the most probable in my mind.


What biological merrits do you think it has, assuming no societal constructs? Do you think it to be a problem or just a difference in position? Do you also believe it to be a two-part definition involving both feelings and action (possibly with some reference to the correlation of those two)?
#21
Quote by ameer
^^^^ That's debateable, because the impact of sexuality can yield children where as the impact of race yields little if anything (anybody know if those studies on racial susceptibility to various diseases are real or hyp?)

i doubt racial susceptibility to certain diseases are real, but.....jeez it flew out of my brain. what is that one disease only african americans could get? That seems fairly odd. Im talking in general though...about how sexuality is like race..... you ar just born with it. People who would argue that sexuality is a choice rather than being born with it....I think more often than not you are born with it but there is always the chance of changing during puberty due to hormones....with me, i found it very odd growing up (like at 8 and 9) that i started becoming attracted to girls. I thought there was something very wrong with me. No one had told me what homosexuality was! I hid it forever. I liked guys as well but i always lied to myself. maybe thats where "being gay is a choice" thing comes from. You lie to yourself forever, thinking you are straight, but yet it doesnt feel right. Then after awhile, once you start to accept it, then thats when people believe oh they used to be straight, but now its their personal choice to be gay. But i have a question...what is pansexuality? I read about it, but i still dont understand. Andi dont understand people who dont believe in bi sexuality..they think it is a fad. What if you really are attracted to both?
#22
I'm gay, its not about plain physical attraction, (although i will not lie, that is part of it)

I find just liking men is....normal, its hard to explain, i like the way a man can hold you, and make you better when you are sad, or share just plain love with you, without being sexual.

caring, its all different than with women, its might be because I'm more feminine so i look for masculine qualities in a person?
#23
Quote by xDie_Romanticx
well im bi..does that count?


mm i think its a characteristic rather than a choice....how you feel about certain things isnt a choice. It goes deeper than that. I dont think its a "mental problem" either. Well, maybe its a mental "condition", but not in a derogatory sense. Its hard to explain. Its just how you are. What is normal? Is being hetero normal? Nothing is normal.....its like color of your skin. What is a race? It is a place of origin, but where does racism develop? Ignorance. Race has nothing to do with anything, and color has nothing to do with anything. Its just how you are. Sexuality is the same way.


thats probably the best way you can describe it (sorry about the double post...)
#24
Quote by original=punk
thats probably the best way you can describe it (sorry about the double post...)

haha its cool. Yes, I find that experiencing both a males and a females affection is just right...im in such an awkward position right now. I am attracted to one of my friends (who doesnt know i am bi, let alone attracted to her. She isnt a homophobe and she loves gay/lesbian people) who is unsure of her own sexuality. I have no clue what to do. She says she is up for experimenting with girls....but I wonder when she wants to..of course she might not want to with me..but im hoping if she ever does itll be with me....it sucks to like someone woh isnt sure of their own sexuality. IM just happy she isnt homophobic.


I tend to go for a little bit on the feminine side for guys, and just a wee bit on the androgynous side for girls. I like guys with small muscles, small build and tall, who are sensitive and quiet. I hate muscles on them. With girls, I like it when they dress feminine, just not like materialistic or w/e. And i hate the look of buff girls. And if they are into the same music as me +1.
Last edited by xDie_Romanticx at Feb 17, 2007,
#25
you gotta be careful if you're bi tho, im (basically) bi, but sorta not rlly, im more like...pansexual, cause it doesnt matter to me really.

but w.e. different story.

anyways, be careful being bi, cuase its becoming a fad with kids today (damn hipsters)
#26
Quote by original=punk
you gotta be careful if you're bi tho, im (basically) bi, but sorta not rlly, im more like...pansexual, cause it doesnt matter to me really.

but w.e. different story.

anyways, be careful being bi, cuase its becoming a fad with kids today (damn hipsters)


I know people say it's a fad... But, perhaps it's just a more widespread acceptance of homosexuality in our society now?