#1
I still have difficulty finding them out. Anybody has tips for finding them quickly?? Like if I tell you:

e|--2--|
B|--0--|
G|--0--|
D|--0--|
A|--2--|
E|-----|


How would you do to find out it's a Em9 rootless chord?? (I knew it cause I made the chord...)

Thanks!
Note: Sorry if my grammar and/or vocabulary isn't very good, English is my 2nd language!

Quote by Resiliance
you show me yours and I'll show you mine!


If you're wondering where I've been gone, click here!
Last edited by hurlyz at Feb 24, 2007,
#3
yeah, doesn't every chord have a root, if you were to drop all the E's from an E chord it wouldn't be an E anymore, right?
my gear:
gibson les paul classic
epiphoen les paul standard
fender standard fat strat
peavey valveking 112
boss me-50
crybaby original wah
#4
why not? and why did you write "have" in italic ??? was it a grammar error from me?? if so, excuse me.. im french...
Note: Sorry if my grammar and/or vocabulary isn't very good, English is my 2nd language!

Quote by Resiliance
you show me yours and I'll show you mine!


If you're wondering where I've been gone, click here!
#5
Quote by yawn
Well, you shouldn't have rootless chords in the first place...


You dont have to have the root in the chord. The order of powers in a triad is the 3rd, root then the 5th.


or something like that
#6
well I often play the Name That Chord game and it happens once in a while that they post rootless chords... and if the chord I posted on my first post wasn't a rootless Em9, its name would probably like |-----------------------------------| that long....
Note: Sorry if my grammar and/or vocabulary isn't very good, English is my 2nd language!

Quote by Resiliance
you show me yours and I'll show you mine!


If you're wondering where I've been gone, click here!
#7
Quote by yawn
Well, you shouldn't have rootless chords in the first place...


What are you talking about?

hurlyz - Spotting rootless voicings (without working them out on paper first) comes with experience - you get to the point where you've seen so many voicings of a certain chord, that you can name it without looking at the notes, so if you use rootless voicings enough (you might use a specific shape for a rootless _7b9 chord for example) you can spot the shape you use somewhere else, a know instantly it could be called a rootless _7b9. One example is a pretty common voicing of E7b9..


|------|
|-6--6-|
|-7--7-|
|-6--6-|
|-7----|
|------|


The first one is a bog standard E7b9 chord, but the second one looks like a bog standard Ddim triad, but if you look closely - you can see all I've done is removed the root off the A string, and you have a rootless E7b9 (that's a common shape for rootless _7b9 chords).

Something else to consider is context, where the chord is place in relation to other chords. If you had a progression, that to the untrained eye seemed like B-7 - Fm6 - A6/9.. the Fm6 seems out of place in what otherwise looks like a standard ii - V - I progression, upon closer inspection - you can see that the Fm6 is really a rootless E7alt chord, E7(#5, b9) and ii - V - I makes much more sense than ii - bVI - I.

Really, there is no trick to spotting or working out rootless voicings (without using paper).. it just comes with time, experience and exposure to them, where you get to the point that someone says 'Is that a F-6?' and you can say 'Nah, it's a pretty basic rootless voicing of E7alt, I use it all the time' without a second glance.

#8
^what he said, its actually a nice technique to use in a lot of situations, theyre crazy chords...
Quote by beadhangingOne
There is no music but metal and muhammad is its prophet.
#9
How do you know that that's not just Gmaj7?

*runs*
The "Popped Collar" Award(Sexiest)
Elvenkindje

The "Rest In Real Life" Award(Best Past MT Mod)
Elvenkindje
#10
I think dimished chords are the only rootless chords. I'm not sure but I just figured that since its built off of major 3rd's and you could argue that any one of the notes in the chord can be the root because its inverted. Not sure if that makes any sense or not.
Quote by jazkel24

Any bands you're trying to copy/sound like?
#11
^It doesn't make any sense.

Diminished chords are stapled minor thirds.

Any chord can be rootless
The "Popped Collar" Award(Sexiest)
Elvenkindje

The "Rest In Real Life" Award(Best Past MT Mod)
Elvenkindje
#12
rootless chords don't exist, there is no such thing cause there are so many scales it's impossible to not be able to assign them to a certain scale, thus giving them a root. that thing you got there isn't an Em9 either just cause of the plain and simle reason that you don't know if the X is an E - F - F# - G or whatever. rootless chords don't exist, it could be a completely different chord if you don't know all it's notes.

and if you don't believe me well, then there's still the chromatic scale
Wise Man Says: The guitar is obviously female, she's got hips, breasts... and a hole.
UG's Flamenco Club
Last edited by FretboardToAsh at Feb 24, 2007,
#13
Quote by FretboardToAsh
rootless chords don't exist, there is no such thing cause there are so many scales it's impossible to not be able to assign them to a certain scale, thus giving them a root. that thing you got there isn't an Em9 either just cause of the plain and simle reason that you don't know if the X is an E - F - F# - G or whatever. rootless chords don't exist, it could be a completely different chord if you don't know all it's notes.
the X simply means you dont play that string -_-' it's not a "secret note" lolll

Quote by elvenkindje
How do you know that that's not just Gmaj7?

*runs*
heh loll... SSHHH!!!
Note: Sorry if my grammar and/or vocabulary isn't very good, English is my 2nd language!

Quote by Resiliance
you show me yours and I'll show you mine!


If you're wondering where I've been gone, click here!
#14
Quote by hurlyz
the X simply means you dont play that string -_-' it's not a "secret note" lolll

heh loll... SSHHH!!!


well if you don't play it ca be considered a Gmaj7 as already been mentioned.
Wise Man Says: The guitar is obviously female, she's got hips, breasts... and a hole.
UG's Flamenco Club
#15
yea it works for the Em9... but what about this rootless F13 ??

e|--5--|
B|--6--|
G|--7--|
D|--5--|
A|--6--|
E|-----|


If rootless chords don't exist, that chord's name would be quite long..
Note: Sorry if my grammar and/or vocabulary isn't very good, English is my 2nd language!

Quote by Resiliance
you show me yours and I'll show you mine!


If you're wondering where I've been gone, click here!
#16
Quote by FretboardToAsh
rootless chords don't exist, there is no such thing cause there are so many scales it's impossible to not be able to assign them to a certain scale, thus giving them a root. that thing you got there isn't an Em9 either just cause of the plain and simle reason that you don't know if the X is an E - F - F# - G or whatever. rootless chords don't exist, it could be a completely different chord if you don't know all it's notes.


|------|
|---6-|
|---7-|
|---6-|
|-----|
|-----|


OMG ROOTLESS CHORD... imma playin' it rootless... SHOOP DA WHOOP!

Anyway, of course rootless chords exist. We play them, so they're there. If you don't believe in Communism do all of the Communists disappear? In all seriousness, any arrangement of 3 different notes is a chord. It's like inverted chords (chords where the tones are rearranged)- you could give it its technical name, or you could recognize that it makes sense and its an inverted chord based on the notes there.

In a similar way, you recognize rootless chords by their position in a progression. If I pull the root notes out one of the chords of a progression, the ear doesn't percieve it differently because the "color tones" are still there. However, when you're just cold naming chords you can either use the extended name of the chord or recognize that its just missing a root and name it based on the notes there... that's one of the flaws of the name a chord sticky since both are technically right.
#17
the root is D, next up is the F making it Dm, set in the Locrian scale and we can add a G# making it a not a Dm but a D diminished(Ddim). now go home and play with your dolls
Wise Man Says: The guitar is obviously female, she's got hips, breasts... and a hole.
UG's Flamenco Club
Last edited by FretboardToAsh at Feb 24, 2007,
#19
Quote by Jearl
if you play a G# in a Dm chord, it'll sound horrible

and since when is there m5 chords?


fixed it. diminished chords, i don't like em either but hey it still got a name
Wise Man Says: The guitar is obviously female, she's got hips, breasts... and a hole.
UG's Flamenco Club
#21
Quote by FretboardToAsh
the root is D, next up is the F making it Dm, set in the Locrian scale and we can add a G# making it a not a Dm but a D diminished(Ddim). now go home and play with your dolls


Ab, not G#. Ab is functioning as the diminished fifth, not G#. Go home and read a theory book.
#22
well anyway, that Thing the ts has in his first post is not an Em9 because there isn't a single E in the entire thing.
Wise Man Says: The guitar is obviously female, she's got hips, breasts... and a hole.
UG's Flamenco Club
#24
Quote by Johnljones7443
Ab, not G#. Ab is functioning as the diminished fifth, not G#. Go home and read a theory book.


and it's still a Ddim, not rootless.

Quote by Jearl
oh, shut up, dude. who cares of someone uses the wrong name for the same note?


:pwned
Wise Man Says: The guitar is obviously female, she's got hips, breasts... and a hole.
UG's Flamenco Club
#25
Quote by Jearl
oh, shut up, dude. who cares of someone uses the wrong name for the same note?


Me. I care - it isn't the same note. Ab and G# have two completely different functions. Calling it G# is incorrect, there is no 'lolz omg dey iz enharmonic rofl' excuse, because it is wrong to call the diminished fifth of D, G#.


Quote by FretboardToAsh
well anyway, that Thing the ts has in his first post is not an Em9 because there isn't a single E in the entire thing.


Yes, it is an E-9 if the context favours calling it E-9. Go pick up a jazz fake book, and see how many chords you can see without roots, thirds and sevenths. You'll see a chord labelled as Xalt, and the only notes in the chord will be the b5, #5, b9. Play a stock voicing of an F-Δ, and given the right context you could call it F-Δ, Gsusb9, AbΔ+, Bb7#11, Dø or Ealt.

Quote by FretboardToAsh
and it's still a Ddim, not rootless.


It's a D° triad yes. But it's also a rootless E7b9 given the right context. If that chord came between B-7 and any A major chord, you'd be a complete idiot to call it D°, because it's function is obviously as the V chord, thus you'd call it E7b9.
#26
Quote by Johnljones7443
Me. I care - it isn't the same note. Ab and G# have two completely different functions. Calling it G# is incorrect, there is no 'lolz omg dey iz enharmonic rofl' excuse, because it is wrong to call the diminished fifth of D, G#.


not the same note? so you're saying if I had sheet music, and there was an Ab and a G#, they would sound completely different?

i know you use them at different times, but I'm pretty sure that when you play them, they're the same thing.
#27
Quote by Jearl
not the same note? so you're saying if I had sheet music, and there was an Ab and a G#, they would sound completely different?

i know you use them at different times, but I'm pretty sure that when you play them, they're the same thing.


Yes, they are enharmonic. They sound the same - but Ab and G# are two different notes when they have a context and a function. I didn't say they don't sound the same, regardless of them being enharmonic it is incorrect to call the diminished fifth of D and G#, it's incorrect to call the augmented fifth of C an Ab, it's incorrect to call the major third of E an Ab, it's incorrect to call the tonic of Ab a G#. Do you see where I'm going with this? They are not the same note.
#28
Quote by Johnljones7443
Yes, they are enharmonic. They sound the same - but Ab and G# are two different notes when they have a context and a function. I didn't say they don't sound the same, regardless of them being enharmonic it is incorrect to call the diminished fifth of D and G#, it's incorrect to call the augmented fifth of C an Ab, it's incorrect to call the major third of E an Ab, it's incorrect to call the tonic of Ab a G#. Do you see where I'm going with this? They are not the same note.


yes, I know exactly what you mean and I agree with all of this. all I'm saying is, I only think this is important when you write music. When you play, it won't be a big deal if you say Ab but really mean G#.

But yes, I fully understand what you're saying.
#29
Quote by Johnljones7443

It's a D° triad yes. But it's also a rootless E7b9 given the right context. If that chord came between B-7 and any A major chord, you'd be a complete idiot to call it D°, because it's function is obviously as the V chord, thus you'd call it E7b9.


and then the root is E, will you stop contradicting yourself?
Wise Man Says: The guitar is obviously female, she's got hips, breasts... and a hole.
UG's Flamenco Club
#30
Quote by Jearl
When you play, it won't be a big deal if you say Ab but really mean G#.


Yes, it will. Because you'd be wrong.

Quote by FretboardToAsh
and then the root is E, will you stop contradicting yourself?


Yeah.. then the root would be E. But the guitar voicing wouldn't contain the root note, I don't know why you can grasp that, it's a fairly simply concept. I don't see how that is contradicting myself. Rootless voicings are usually accompanied by a bass player, or piano player playing the bass notes and melody notes to support the tonality.
#31
Quote by elvenkindje
^It doesn't make any sense.

Diminished chords are stapled minor thirds.

Any chord can be rootless



Yea I didn't think so.
And I just realized I said Major 3rds not Minor 3rds.
Quote by jazkel24

Any bands you're trying to copy/sound like?
#32
Quote by Johnljones7443
Yes, it will. Because you'd be wrong.



If you're on tour, selling out stadiums, and some kid goes backstage to talk to you to ask how to play a song, and you say Ab instead of G#, will it matter? no.
#33
Quote by FretboardToAsh
and then the root is E, will you stop contradicting yourself?


Oh my god.

Your ignorance is actually causing me pain. Go read a book about music theory.

It's called a rootless chord because the root is not played in that voicing. E is most certainly the root of an E-9 chord, but it doesn't have to be present to have an E-9 chord. Rootless voicings can be extremely helpful when comping, as they're often easier to get to and as John said, accompanied by a different instrument. If you have a bass player playing the root of the chord, there's no need for you to play it as well.

Please, people, listen to John. He knows what he's talking about.

Quote by Jearl
If you're on tour, selling out stadiums, and some kid goes backstage to talk to you to ask how to play a song, and you say Ab instead of G#, will it matter? no.


Technically, no, it wouldn't matter (and if you're playing music for a living and actually know what you're doing, you would tell him the correct note to play - not either one). But tell me this - if what you're saying is true, why are there sharps and flats in the first place? Why not just sharps?

The reality is that it does matter. A D major scale is made up of D - E - F# - G - A - B - C#. It would be theoretically incorrect to name that F# as a Gb. Enharmonically, yes, they're the same thing. But saying that it doesn't matter is absolutely ridiculous.

And I'll say it again - listen to John. He knows what he's saying.
Quote by guitar_god22

thats about south africa tho...which isnt poor at all.
Quote by RyanInChains9
yea venezula is just the richest country in the world...
Last edited by Zeppelin256 at Feb 24, 2007,
#34
Quote by Zeppelin256


Technically, no, it wouldn't matter (and if you're playing music for a living and actually know what you're doing, you would tell him the correct note to play - not either one). But tell me this - if what you're saying is true, why are there sharps and flats in the first place? Why not just sharps?

The reality is that it does matter. A D major scale is made up of D - E - F# - G - A - B - C. It would be theoretically incorrect to name that F# as a Gb. Enharmonically, yes, they're the same thing. But saying that it doesn't matter is absolutely ridiculous.

And I'll say it again - listen to John. He knows what he's saying.


now, if you actually read anything that I wrote, you'd see that I agree with him.
and yes, it is theoretically incorrect. i know.

but you answered my question and pretty much said I was right. (to what I was asking.) and there have been plenty of people who played music for a living who didn't know theory, so that arguement isnt very valid.
#35
Quote by Jearl
now, if you actually read anything that I wrote, you'd see that I agree with him.
and yes, it is theoretically incorrect. i know.

but you answered my question and pretty much said I was right. (to what I was asking.) and there have been plenty of people who played music for a living who didn't know theory, so that arguement isnt very valid.


well he did say "if your playing music for a living AND YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR DOING" meaning you know your theory...
http://richmusic.dmusic.com

"Those who dream by night, in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that all was vanity; but dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, and make it possible."
#36
Quote by Zeppelin256
Oh my god.

Your ignorance is actually causing me pain. Go read a book about music theory.

It's called a rootless chord because the root is not played in that voicing. E is most certainly the root of an E-9 chord, but it doesn't have to be present to have an E-9 chord.

Or it could be a Gmaj7.... which it is.....
Quote by SynGates7X

you are indeed mr. awesome.

Quote by Duane_Allman
eckmann88 you sir are a god.

Quote by SavageNights
Oh, you're so damn shallow, eckmann88. They have nice boobs, don't they?

Quote by DraketheFake
good job eckman, seriously, that last one alone would give me an eternal erection!

Help
Space
#37
^ yeah but how many of them were REALLY REALLY good...... 3 or 4? out of HUNDREDS.... and yes... i love to laugh at the pain of others (i could almost see JohnLJones going for the hammer and a tub full of battery acid to end this) but really man, Johns right, he's got his theory sh!t down tight..... calling a note by the wrong name will only confuse the people you are trying to talk to about music if they actually know any theory.
#38
Quote by rich2k4
well he did say "if your playing music for a living AND YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR DOING" meaning you know your theory...


knowing theory does'nt mean you know what you're doing. you can read up about every kind of scale, chord, and whatever else you want, but it won't mean a thing if you can't play.
#39
This thread is shit.

John is correct, now stfu all of you
The "Popped Collar" Award(Sexiest)
Elvenkindje

The "Rest In Real Life" Award(Best Past MT Mod)
Elvenkindje