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#81
Quote by Johnljones7443
The second inversion would be N6/4, not N6. 6 is used to notate first inversion, and is the inversion the N chord is usually played in.

meant first .
I traded in my Real Books for Robbins and Cotran Pathology Textbooks
#82
Sorry for the n00b question (though they are welcomed), but what is a Neopalatin inversion?
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#83
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inversion_%28music%29 Read to get inverted chords.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neapolitan_chord Read on the Neopolitan chord.

To summarize, a Neopolitan in a given key is a major chord, with the flatted second of the key as the root.

So, in C major, the second is D, and the flat second is therefore D flat. The Neopolitan in C would contain the notes of a Db major triad, which are Db F Ab.

A Neopolitan chord is also usually in first inversion. This means that the third of the chord is the lowest note. So, in the key of C, we have our Neopolitan. The third of the Neopolitan is F, so that is the bass note, and the Db and Ab would be above it.


If this is confusing, there should also be some other threads around on Neopolitans, if you use the search bar.
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#84
... can I say something...?

... you people are INSANE! I mean, where in the bloody world do you learn all this stuff? It's just... aye, makes my head spin....
"Isn't it amazing anything's accomplished
When the little sensation gets in your way
Not one ambition whisperin' over your shoulder
Isn't it amazing you can do anything " - Gord Downie

From the song " Fireworks"
#85
Quote by mexican_shred
meant first .


Ah sorry mate.

4 chords. 2 chords per bar. Name them and give them a function.
#86
Could be way off, I hardly ever read bass clef but here goes...

Cmaj9 - A7 - Dm7 - G9

I - V/ii - ii - V
#88
Name each chord & the scale they are all derived from



E—5--------------6-----
B—6---6-----8----8-----
G—7---7-----7----6-----
D—7---7-----8----7-----
A—5---X-----7-----------
E ----6------------------

#91
Eø - Aalt - Ab7#11 - Galt - C7

Using tritone substitution, write out the above chord progression in 7 more unique ways. You only need to change the 3 chords in the middle.

I know I've done this kinda thing before, but I'm short on ideas, so it'll have to do, ha ha - and it'll still be interesting to see how the people who didn't see it last time get on with it. (Karim - you're exempt from this one, ha ha).
#92
ummm....i guess the tritone sub for Aalt is D#alt, for Ab7#11 is D7#11, and for G alt is C#alt.

So now you take those and you can sub in seven ways, changing:

only 1st
only 2nd
only 3rd
1st & 2nd
1st and 3rd
2nd and 3rd
all three
"I see my light come shining from the west down to the east
Any day now, any day now I shall be released"

Know any good teachers in NY, especially skilled in teaching ear training? Tell me
#93
^No, the TT sub for Aalt isn't D#alt, the TT sub for Ab7#11 isn't D7#11 and the TT sub for Galt isn't C#alt. TT subs for _alt chords and _7#11 are both in the same scale.

Edit: As in _alt = _7#11 from the same (melodic minor) scale. So if we have Balt from the altered mode in C mel minor, the TT sub is F7#11 from F lyd-dom (also from C mel minor... ). So basically, _alt subs to _7#11 and 7#11 subs to _alt within the same scale.

You're right in the format you wrote, but that's slacking - so you have to write it out, ha ha.
Last edited by Johnljones7443 at Apr 20, 2007,
#94
Quote by Johnljones7443
Eø - Aalt - Ab7#11 - Galt - C7

Using tritone substitution, write out the above chord progression in 7 more unique ways. You only need to change the 3 chords in the middle.

I know I've done this kinda thing before, but I'm short on ideas, so it'll have to do, ha ha - and it'll still be interesting to see how the people who didn't see it last time get on with it. (Karim - you're exempt from this one, ha ha).
wtf...

I saw it and I was like.. huh that's easy!

then I saw the " Karim you're exempt from this one "

Anyways, not a big deal... if nobody gets it after 24h or so, I'll post the answers!
Note: Sorry if my grammar and/or vocabulary isn't very good, English is my 2nd language!

Quote by Resiliance
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#95
Is this what you're looking for?

Eb7#11 - Ab7#11 - Galt

Aalt - Dalt - Galt

Aalt - Ab7#11 - Db7#11

Eb7#11 - Ab7#11 - Db7#11

Aalt - Dalt - Db7#11

Eb7#11 - Dalt - Galt

Eb7#11 - Dalt - Db7#11
#96
Quote by Johnljones7443
^No, the TT sub for Aalt isn't D#alt, the TT sub for Ab7#11 isn't D7#11 and the TT sub for Galt isn't C#alt. TT subs for _alt chords and _7#11 are both in the same scale.

Edit: As in _alt = _7#11 from the same (melodic minor) scale. So if we have Balt from the altered mode in C mel minor, the TT sub is F7#11 from F lyd-dom (also from C mel minor... ). So basically, _alt subs to _7#11 and 7#11 subs to _alt within the same scale.

You're right in the format you wrote, but that's slacking - so you have to write it out, ha ha.



hmm, so let's see if i can learn this, please help me out here.

the A alt scale is A Bb C Db Eb F G A...i guess for our purposes is A Bb B# C# Eb E# G A.

Aalt contained the notes A C# G and possibly Eb, E#, Bb, B#.

So Eb7#11 would be the sub for Aalt. It contains the notes Eb G Bb Db A, all of which are found in the A alt scale.

What I thought was the answer, let's say Ebalt, contains: Eb G Db and possibly Bbb, B, Fbb, F. Not all of these are found in the alt scale, so we don't use this.

If this made sense, then let me ask another question. Why in particular do we use the #11 to sub for the alt and vice versa, instead of another chord drawn up from that scale? If we were substituting for an A7 chord, the resultant chord would not contain the note A itself, but the Eb7#11 does. So basically, I'm asking for an explanation or resource to learn about substitutions for extended and altered chords in general, and why they work.
"I see my light come shining from the west down to the east
Any day now, any day now I shall be released"

Know any good teachers in NY, especially skilled in teaching ear training? Tell me
#97
^The reason we use the _7#11 chord as a substitution for the _alt chord is because they both resolve in the same way. Alt chord tends to resolve down a 5th, up a half step and down a major third, _7#11 chords on the other hand tend to resolve down a half step, up a 4th and up a whole step. Now, if we use A7alt and Eb7#11 as an example.. the strongest resolution for each chord is to exactly the same chord.

A7alt down a 5th - DΔ
Eb7#11 down a half step - DΔ

A7alt up a half step - BbΔ
Eb7#11 down a 4th - BbΔ

A7alt down a major third - FΔ
Eb7#11 up a whole step - FΔ

Each chords strongest resolution is to the same chord as the _7alt a tritone away. Another reason is the nature of chords built from the melodic minor scale, they are all interchangeable with one another. Play a standard voicing of C-Δ over a C bass note, then play the same voicing over a D bass note. The resulting chord will feel and function like a Dsusb9 chord, over an E bass - you get a lydian augmented feel and an EbΔ#5 chord.

This works for all 6 functioning chords in the 'key' of C melodic minor, C-Δ, Dsusb9, EbΔ#5, F7#11, Aø and B7alt - because all the chords are in essence the 'same' chord, they all give the essence of the same sound - because the notes used to build them are not found in any other scale. The root, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th when played together define the 'key' of that particular melodic minor scale. The reason we have no G chord in there is because the G chord built from C mel minor is normally substituted with a chord from the melodic minor scale a minor third away, so instead of G7 from C mel minor, G7alt from Ab mel minor is used.

So if A7alt and Eb7#11 are both the 'same' chord - they both imply the same tonality and resolve strongest to the same places, which is why we use them both interchangeably. Instead of substituting A7alt for Eb7alt, because Eb7alt won't imply the same tonality (it would imply an Ab melodic minor sound) and it will not resolve as smoothly as it's _7#11 cousin (it would want to resolve to AbΔ, Ab-Δ, EΔ etc..)

And yes Stash Jam, you're up mate.

#98
soloing over an Am13 chord, you can use 3 different minor pentatonic scales (based off 3 different Am13 chord tones)

Name them
#100
awesome john, that is extremely helpful. i'm surprised you're not a moderator...yet

just a small clarification and question....you said for the G chord we use that from Ab. That's is a major third from C. Is this what you meant or is the problem elsewhere (or am I just confuse). Also, is Mark Levine's book a good source for all this jazz harmony stuff, i've been meaning to buy it because all the reviews are spectacular.
"I see my light come shining from the west down to the east
Any day now, any day now I shall be released"

Know any good teachers in NY, especially skilled in teaching ear training? Tell me
#101
^Right, a major third is what I meant to type. I was confused there with the iiø - Valt progression built from melodic minor where each chord is taken from the melodic minor scale a minor third away (In C that'd be Dø from F melodic minor, G7alt from Ab melodic minor), so just a mistake on my part there, but you're correct.

Yes, Mark Levines book is the only book you need to buy if you want to learn more stuff like this, he explains what we've just talked about but in further detail and with examples in his book - definitely recommend it to you mate.

#102
Quote by Johnljones7443
Am pent off the root.
Em pent off the 5th.
Bm pent off the 9th.


You're up. +1 for Mark Levine's book as well
#103
Name all three chords - and tell me the name of the chord (you can include a piano voicing aswell if you want) that often replaces the highlighted chord to provide a certain motion.

Attachments:
ugchords.JPG
#104
Jesus this threads alot harder than the old one I preferd just the chords! Can you refresh my memory on reading bass cleff?
Quote by cakemonster91

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Go to your staff paper and re-write this song a half step down so on the paper it'll be like you have a "C" just move it down to a "B#"




Know your theory, then play like you don't.

#106
Fm11 with no 5ht

F7Alt no third -> goes to B7#11?

D# 7sus4?
I traded in my Real Books for Robbins and Cotran Pathology Textbooks
#107
No, no, no and no.

You have the root of the second chord correct when you say Falt, and it is an altered dominant built on F, but not a chord built from the altered scale - and thus, B7#11 is incorrect aswell. (Hint: the substitution is not a tritone substitution).
#108
ah whoops. Im just used to saying altered when i see F7(b5 , b9)

ok lemme try again 1st chord is a Ab Maj 13 no 3rd?

3rd is Absus2sus4?

not sure abotu teh substation
I traded in my Real Books for Robbins and Cotran Pathology Textbooks
Last edited by mexican_shred at Apr 21, 2007,
#109
F7(b5, b9) is correct (I'd call it F7b9#11 because it avoids confusion with the altered scale), but it's built from the H/W scale, so calling it Falt would be incorrect. You can just call it F7b9 for shorthand, which implies it's built from the H/W scale.

AbΔ is correct for the first one, and G#sus2sus4 is incorrect for the last one. The last one should be pretty easy considering the chord before it is F7b9
#110
i really have no idea but this will be my last guess of Db6/9 no third?
I traded in my Real Books for Robbins and Cotran Pathology Textbooks
#112
Aw damn. Well i set up half of it. Someone should be able to go from there *cough* Hurlzy*cough*
dang you and your b9 chords !

i lied my last guess is Bb min 7 no 5th. i should have known. its the progression thats used in black orpheus and fly me to the moon.
I traded in my Real Books for Robbins and Cotran Pathology Textbooks
#113
AbΔ - F7b9#11 - Bbm11

not too sure about the second part but maybe you're looking for

AbΔ - Adim7 - Bbm11 (for chromatic motion)

(ps, how do you type in the proper symbols?, I had to copy/paste the symbol for the Ab chord )
#115
Ok, here's an easy one

Name the specific scale (i.e. name the root note as well) used for the melody in The Simpsons theme song
#118
3 x3 4 4 4

x10 9 10 11 11

8 x 8 8 6 x

10 x 10 10 9 x
[reads as (EADGBE)]


tell me the name of the chords, and a scale that can be used to play over them
I traded in my Real Books for Robbins and Cotran Pathology Textbooks
#119
Quote by Johnljones7443
^Absolutely spot on. I get the Δ symbol from the character map in Windows, ha ha.


i know this is not meant to be a question thread, but god...can you possibly explain this answer? I'm absolutely lost as to the first two chords there...why you can call it a chord w/o a third instead of calling something else the root, same on the second chord.
"I see my light come shining from the west down to the east
Any day now, any day now I shall be released"

Know any good teachers in NY, especially skilled in teaching ear training? Tell me
#120
Quote by mexican_shred
Someone should be able to go from there *cough* Hurlzy*cough*
Haha thanks man!

Quote by mexican_shred
3 x3 4 4 4

x10 9 10 11 11

8 x 8 8 6 x

10 x 10 10 9 x
[reads as (EADGBE)]


tell me the name of the chords, and a scale that can be used to play over them
Abm/maj13 -> Ab Melodic Minor

Galt -> G Altered Scale

Cm11 -> C Natural Minor

Fm6 -> F Melodic Minor
Note: Sorry if my grammar and/or vocabulary isn't very good, English is my 2nd language!

Quote by Resiliance
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Last edited by hurlyz at Apr 23, 2007,