Page 4 of 53
#121
^ 1st isnt what im looking for

2nd ill take
3rd-correct
4th, is correct but not what i was looking for. So 2.5/4.

and i guess i forgot to clarify myself but when i said scales i meant one that could go over all 4 chords. such as lets say Mixolydian(#9, b9) or alter dominant etc.
I traded in my Real Books for Robbins and Cotran Pathology Textbooks
#122
G7#5b9
G7#5#9
Cm11
Dm7b5

I can't think of a scale that would adequately cover all of those chords though
I'd stick with G altered over the first two chords & C aeolian over the last two...looking at all the chord tones you get
C D Eb F G Ab Bb B, So it's like C aeolian with the leading tone added (I guess you could say aeolian bebop or something though I've never heard that name used before)
#123
^ correct!. alt first then switch to . also F blues using the other unused notes at connectors
I traded in my Real Books for Robbins and Cotran Pathology Textbooks
#124
^You said one scale? Also, what is Mixolydian(#9, b9)? Never heard of it. I assume it's 1 - b2 - #2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - b7, but from where is it built?
#125
its basically that . you dont play teh regular 2nd. Lets say i have a song in key of Bb major(this case there is no greater love) but my chords are Bb Ma7, Eb7 Ab7, G7 C7. that last chord in order to make it fit i would use the b9 #9 mixolydian. over the G7 i could play mixo b 13. And over the Ab7(and Eb7) i would use A alt Dominant or Eb Lydian b7 scale.My teacher taught me that you can alter the mixo scale to make it fit. He went to Berkelee and got a jazz Degree and Music Theory Degree. Dont know how credible that is now, but he graduated in the early 80's
I traded in my Real Books for Robbins and Cotran Pathology Textbooks
Last edited by mexican_shred at Apr 23, 2007,
#126
Name 4 Different Dominant 7 chords that can be derived from this dim7 chord shape (by altering only 1 note from the dim7 chord to make a _7 chord, then alter a different note from the dim7 to make a different _7, etc etc)
each resulting _7 chord will have 3 common tones with the dim7 chord shown below

e --7--
b --6--
g --7--
d --6--
a
e
Last edited by Stash Jam at Apr 24, 2007,
#127
I didn't find any dominant 7 chords but I did find 4 x diminished 7ths chords!

G#dim7 , Ddim7 , Fdim7 and Bdim7

---EDIT---
Oh I think I didn't understand well the question... well, if I understood correctly.. you're asking for 4 different dom7 chords that share 3 tones with the dim7 chords...

if so.. they're G7 , Db7 , E7 and Bb7
Note: Sorry if my grammar and/or vocabulary isn't very good, English is my 2nd language!

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Last edited by hurlyz at Apr 23, 2007,
#128
Quote by hurlyz


---EDIT---
Oh I think I didn't understand well the question... well, if I understood correctly.. you're asking for 4 different dom7 chords that share 3 tones with the dim7 chords...

if so.. they're G7 , Db7 , E7 and Bb7


Yeah thats what I was looking for. I'll show what concept I was using since it was a little hard to explain it in the form of a question

Here are the 4 Dom7 Voicings you get by simply altering one note from this dim7 shape

e --7--
b --6--
g --7--
d --6--
a
e

 

   G7      Db7     E7      Bb7
     
e --7-------7-------7-------6--
b --6-------6-------5-------6--
g --7-------6-------7-------7--
d --5-------6-------6-------6--
a 
e

#129
Quote by Stash Jam
Yeah thats what I was looking for. I'll show what concept I was using since it was a little hard to explain it in the form of a question
I don't know if you noticed but the note you were changing always was the root... When you lower a dim7's root by a half-step, it turns into a dom7


What would you do if you wanted a ii-V-I progression to turn into a chromatically descending root note progression?? (dunno if I was clear )

Easy question but I had no other idea
Note: Sorry if my grammar and/or vocabulary isn't very good, English is my 2nd language!

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#130
Quote by hurlyz
I don't know if you noticed but the note you were changing always was the root... When you lower a dim7's root by a half-step, it turns into a dom7

Easy question but I had no other idea



Yeah I know, just showing it in case some beginners or whoever may not have realized that yet

For your question ... Use tritone substitution

Dm7-Db7-Cmaj7
#131
^ yea that's right! Your turn

Note: Sorry if my grammar and/or vocabulary isn't very good, English is my 2nd language!

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#132
Name 3 characteristics of secondary dominant (V7/ii V7/iii etc.) chords (in relation to the 'primary' key they are being used in)
Last edited by Stash Jam at Apr 24, 2007,
#133
They are not diatonic to the primary key (so V7 is not a secondary dominant).
They are the V of a major or minor chord in the key, not diminished.
The most common one is V/V...don't really know if this is what you're looking for.
"I see my light come shining from the west down to the east
Any day now, any day now I shall be released"

Know any good teachers in NY, especially skilled in teaching ear training? Tell me
#134
Why can't they be the V of a diminished chord in the key?

That's a serious question, btw.
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#135
Quote by sirpsycho85
They are not diatonic to the primary key (so V7 is not a secondary dominant).


Correct

Quote by sirpsycho85
They are the V of a major or minor chord in the key, not diminished.


Correct, but expand on that a bit. what do the root notes of all secondary dominants have in common with the primary key? This should help answer elvenkindje's question too

Quote by sirpsycho85
The most common one is V/V...don't really know if this is what you're looking for.


Well the 3rd characteristic I'm looking for is where the secondary dominants are expected to resolve.

Combined these are the 3 main characteristics of secondary dominants as described in the Berklee harmony book
Last edited by Stash Jam at Apr 25, 2007,
#136
umm, i guess all the root notes are part of the scale of the primary key?

And they resolve down a fifth, because they act as the V of the chord they are a secondary dominant to. As far as voice leading, they resolve by the same rules as a regular V-I.

(although, i think i have heard that you try to treat the leading tone of the primary key as still going up if possible, if it is present in the secondary dominant...although this i think is likely to happen anyway. ex: in C, V of vi is E, so the B in that chord resolves up to C in am.)
"I see my light come shining from the west down to the east
Any day now, any day now I shall be released"

Know any good teachers in NY, especially skilled in teaching ear training? Tell me
#137
You got it

1. They are expected to resolve down a perfect fifth
2. They are non-diatonic structures (at least 1 chord tone isn't in the primary key)
3. They are built from a diatonic root (their root note is in the primary key)

edit for elvenkindje...If you took a secondary dominant from a diminished chord, the root note will not be diatonic, in C major, the "V/vii" would be F#7. They aren't used b/c for example F#7 > Bdim doesn't function as a cadence, the Bdim is too unstable to sound like it's been resolved. On the other hand, all secondary dominants of major & minor chords do have a strong V-I or V-i cadence
Last edited by Stash Jam at Apr 25, 2007,
#138
G7 - F#7 - Bdim - E7 - Am would still make a godly cadence in the end.

But I see your point, I wasn't thinking clear about it. Thank you for explaining
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#139
oh my, I jumped in between the jazz questions and have an opportunity to try and stump you guys.

--7---
--8---
--7---
--7---
--7---
------


Using the rules of atonal theory:
1) What is the prime form of this pitch class set?
2) What is the interval vector for this pitch class set?
Bonus: What is a nickname of this chord?
"I see my light come shining from the west down to the east
Any day now, any day now I shall be released"

Know any good teachers in NY, especially skilled in teaching ear training? Tell me
Last edited by sirpsycho85 at Apr 25, 2007,
#140
Quote by sirpsycho85
oh my, I jumped in between the jazz questions and have an opportunity to try and stump you guys.

--7---
--8---
--7---
--7---
--7---
------


Using the rules of atonal theory:
1) What is the prime form of this pitch class set?
2) What is the interval vector for this pitch class set?
Bonus: What is a nickname of this chord?


Emin7add4 I'm assuming
1. Pitch Class (4,9,2,7,11)
2.<011020>
Bonus: Parallel Fourths?
#141
^if its an add 4 then its an eminor 11.
I traded in my Real Books for Robbins and Cotran Pathology Textbooks
#142
Quote by rockguitar84
Emin7add4 I'm assuming
1. Pitch Class (4,9,2,7,11)
2.<011020>
Bonus: Parallel Fourths?



nope to all. I actually didn't even ask for the regular name, but I do believe Em11 is the correct one. The pitch class numbers are correct, but it is not in prime form. The vector is wrong and the nickname, if you've heard it, is not the one I am refering to.
"I see my light come shining from the west down to the east
Any day now, any day now I shall be released"

Know any good teachers in NY, especially skilled in teaching ear training? Tell me
#143
is the nick name a 9sus 4 chord?
I traded in my Real Books for Robbins and Cotran Pathology Textbooks
#144
The nickname will be something like "Hendrix chord" is for a _#9, and it's a bonus because it's just a cool fact I read on wikipedia and has nothing to do with theory. It's not the chord name, just nickname.
"I see my light come shining from the west down to the east
Any day now, any day now I shall be released"

Know any good teachers in NY, especially skilled in teaching ear training? Tell me
#145
Quote by sirpsycho85
oh my, I jumped in between the jazz questions and have an opportunity to try and stump you guys.

--7---
--8---
--7---
--7---
--7---
------


Using the rules of atonal theory:
1) What is the prime form of this pitch class set?
2) What is the interval vector for this pitch class set?
Bonus: What is a nickname of this chord?
Well it seems nobody knows the answer

Can you tell us what they were?
(still gonna be your turn after... I guess)
Note: Sorry if my grammar and/or vocabulary isn't very good, English is my 2nd language!

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#146
my random guess for its nickname is the tristan chord. but im guessing thats wrong
I traded in my Real Books for Robbins and Cotran Pathology Textbooks
#147
Quote by sirpsycho85


--7---
--8---
--7---
--7---
--7---
------


Using the rules of atonal theory:
1) What is the prime form of this pitch class set?
2) What is the interval vector for this pitch class set?
Bonus: What is a nickname of this chord?


1) The prime form is (0, 2, 4, 7, 9).
2) The interval vector is <0, 3, 2, 1, 4, 0>
The nickname is the "So What" chord, because of it's use by Bill Evans on that tune.

To figure out prime form, mark the pitch class numbers off around a clock. You try and find the shortest arc that contains all the pitch classes, and you go in the order that makes the numbers smaller. It's a bit confusing to explain w/o diagrams.

For the interval vector, it is simply counting the number of each type of interval class. Remember an interval class is the shortest distance between the notes in either direction, so between an E and a D higher up, we say the interval is 2. The pitch collection here contains 0 m2/M7, 3 M2/m7, 2 m3/M6, 1 M3/m6, 4 P4/P5, 0 aug4/dim5 (tritone).


NEW QUESTION:

What is pandiatonicism?


For those who care, sirpsycho85 here is currently trying to write a piece for piano and viola that features suspended and pandiatonic harmony with pentatonic and lydian melodies, and i believe it's actually going to be recorded in class which is pretty exciting, so if it happens and you want to hear it, cool.
"I see my light come shining from the west down to the east
Any day now, any day now I shall be released"

Know any good teachers in NY, especially skilled in teaching ear training? Tell me
Last edited by sirpsycho85 at Apr 28, 2007,
#148
Damn I should study more classical theory, these questions totally throw me off, we need to get Cor in here to answer them, ha ha.

I know pandiatonicism is using a diatonic scale without strictly adhering to the notes/chords to serve as a means of resolution or function. We did examples of this in music class about 4 years ago, which inevitably got me into Stravinsky (his use of it is amazing).

Also, I'd love to hear it if you ever get it posted up.

#149
^isnt it a bit similar to picardys third principle where u change the 3rd,6th or7th of a chord?
I traded in my Real Books for Robbins and Cotran Pathology Textbooks
Last edited by mexican_shred at Apr 28, 2007,
#150
^I don't think so, Picardys third principle involves going outside of a diatonic key to change the third of a minor triad to a major third in either a perfect or plagal cadence, pandiatonicism strictly adheres to a diatonic melody/harmony, but bears no adheration to function or resolution.

As far as I know, both are completely different concepts, the only similarity they have is neither allows a tonic/tonal center to be firmly established.
#151
john is on, that's right.

I'm pretty sure picardy's thirds can still let you establish a firm tonic, it's often only with the very last chord in a piece that the change to major is made. And yeah, pandiatonicism is so much fun to work with, I love the fact that the first two chords in what i'm writing are C and gm, and it still sounds like classical music.

Hey john, if it isn't too much to ask, you posted a question before to which the answer was:

AbΔ - F7b9#11 - Bbm11

Can you possibly explain the naming of some of these chords, especially why you can name a chord with a missing third when other names are there that have thirds...
"I see my light come shining from the west down to the east
Any day now, any day now I shall be released"

Know any good teachers in NY, especially skilled in teaching ear training? Tell me
#152
AbΔ

I was having a disscussion with my girlfriends dad who teaches music at Degree level, nd he says that symbol is meant only for maj7 yet you seem to use it for all _maj chords... ie..maj9. This is just what i remember you putting btw i may be wrong, please correct me if I am about what you said.
Quote by cakemonster91

*chuckle* A peanut. With a face.



Go to your staff paper and re-write this song a half step down so on the paper it'll be like you have a "C" just move it down to a "B#"




Know your theory, then play like you don't.

#153
Quote by Peanut1614
AbΔ

I was having a disscussion with my girlfriends dad who teaches music at Degree level, nd he says that symbol is meant only for maj7 yet you seem to use it for all _maj chords... ie..maj9. This is just what i remember you putting btw i may be wrong, please correct me if I am about what you said.
Δ does mean _maj7 but a _maj7 and a _maj9 shares the same function so I jazz players write all the maj chords as _Δ and just know that they have to put a chord that is a _maj7 or _maj9 or etc. depending on the context.
Note: Sorry if my grammar and/or vocabulary isn't very good, English is my 2nd language!

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#154
Quote by hurlyz
Δ does mean _maj7 but a _maj7 and a _maj9 shares the same function so I jazz players write all the maj chords as _Δ and just know that they have to put a chord that is a _maj7 or _maj9 or etc. depending on the context.


Thanks for clearing that up

Okay I think its been 24 hours so ill post an easy one see if some new people can join in!

E
B 3
G
D 1
A 3
E
Quote by cakemonster91

*chuckle* A peanut. With a face.



Go to your staff paper and re-write this song a half step down so on the paper it'll be like you have a "C" just move it down to a "B#"




Know your theory, then play like you don't.

#155
^ Cmadd9 ?
Note: Sorry if my grammar and/or vocabulary isn't very good, English is my 2nd language!

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#156
Seems correct.
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#157
Quote by hurlyz
^ Cmadd9 ?


Yup was based on a common barre to try and get newer people in, guess not

And its close to 24 hours again so someone post or ill take it soon..
Quote by cakemonster91

*chuckle* A peanut. With a face.



Go to your staff paper and re-write this song a half step down so on the paper it'll be like you have a "C" just move it down to a "B#"




Know your theory, then play like you don't.

#158
^ Well I give you my turn then!
Note: Sorry if my grammar and/or vocabulary isn't very good, English is my 2nd language!

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#159


E 6
B 4
G 3
D 5
A 3
E 3

Have fun!
Quote by cakemonster91

*chuckle* A peanut. With a face.



Go to your staff paper and re-write this song a half step down so on the paper it'll be like you have a "C" just move it down to a "B#"




Know your theory, then play like you don't.

#160
Cm7 (2nd inversion )
Note: Sorry if my grammar and/or vocabulary isn't very good, English is my 2nd language!

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