#1
How would I practice soloing with different modes? Right now I am focusing mostly on Phrygian and Locrian, so the simplest would be E Phrygian and B Locrian. But where would I start? I was going to memorize the scale patterns, but I feel like that doesn't really bring out emphasis in solos because you are too busy trying to stay in key. Any suggestions would be great.
#2
Backing chords determine what mode you're in. A good way to practice is to hit the open E string and just go crazy in different modes with E as a root (not modes in the key of E, rather modes with E as the first i.e E Phrygian E Locrain E Myxolydian etc)
#3
To solo with modes you first got to learn the mode patterns, do you know them?
Then start somewhere easy, let's say 1st fret 6 string, in normal tuning F, then do you know how modes connect?Connect them until you reach the 24th fret.
Then you just have to visualize the modes.This will come with practice.It's good to practice with a friend so he (or she) can play rythm and you lead.

PM me if you need more help.
#4
What do you mean connect the modes? You mean stay with the same root note (such as a C), but switch the modes as you go down the neck(like Dorian, Phrygian, etc.)?
#5
Quote by Ascendancy5
What do you mean connect the modes? You mean stay with the same root note (such as a C), but switch the modes as you go down the neck(like Dorian, Phrygian, etc.)?


You do not "switch modes as you go down the neck"
All modes cover the entire neck. The mode is determined by the backing chords, not the box pattern.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#6
I mean if rythm is in the key of C for exaxmple the first mode(degree) would be Ionian C.
Then Dorian D, Phrygian E, Lydian F, Mixolydian G, Aeolian A and Locrian B.
Remember the modes are degrees.
PM me and I'll explain everything you need to know on modes.
#7
When practicing soloing in modes, also make sure to emphasize the unique note to bring out the true feel feel of the mode. For instance, in E Lydian make sure you use the Bb often. Land on it or go right through it, either way if you hit it it will give the airy feel of Lydian.
#8
I know modes, trust me. What I mean is say that I want to practice the Phrygian mode because I like the sound of that mode. I record a backing track of a chord progression with E-A-B-E

How can I practice writing a solo with E Phrygian aside from staring at an E-Phrygian neck diagram the whole time?
#9
Quote by LightningboltX
I mean if rythm is in the key of C for exaxmple the first mode(degree) would be Ionian C.
Then Dorian D, Phrygian E, Lydian F, Mixolydian G, Aeolian A and Locrian B.
Remember the modes are degrees.
PM me and I'll explain everything you need to know on modes.


All those scales are C Major unless the backing chords are changed.

^Remember, it isn't a shape, it's the relation of the backing chords and the notes. You could play a position akin to C Major, but because you are hitting those notes (C D E F G A B) in that key it sounds like (and is) E Phrygian.
Last edited by CowboyUp at Jun 22, 2007,
#10
Quote by LightningboltX
I mean if rythm is in the key of C for exaxmple the first mode(degree) would be Ionian C.
Then Dorian D, Phrygian E, Lydian F, Mixolydian G, Aeolian A and Locrian B.
Remember the modes are degrees.
PM me and I'll explain everything you need to know on modes.


You cannot play E phrygian or D dorian, or any of those modes, if the backing track is in C.

How can I practice writing a solo with E Phrygian aside from staring at an E-Phrygian neck diagram the whole time?


Phrygian is not a box pattern. E phrygian contains the notes EFGABCD, and you can play those notes anywhere you want on the fretboard, in any order. Just come up with a backing track and play those notes.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#12
If the backing track is only a Cmajor progression.You can play every major mode in the key of C
#13
They would all just be C major. They would be different positions, but same notes over same chords = same scale.
#14
Quote by Archeo Avis
You cannot play E phrygian or D dorian, or any of those modes, if the backing track is in C.

Phrygian is not a box pattern. E phrygian contains the notes EFGABCD, and you can play those notes anywhere you want on the fretboard, in any order. Just come up with a backing track and play those notes.


Technically, you can play E Phrygian or D dorian if the backing chord is C. You don't NEED to play in C Major if the backing chord is a C, that is pretty boring.

And E Phrygian can, and does, have a box shape. Your right that the notes can be found elsewhere on the neck, but thats the same with a C Major scale. C Major has all those notes found around the neck, but C Major also has a Box Pattern.
#15
Quote by Ascendancy5
Technically, you can play E Phrygian or D dorian if the backing chord is C. You don't NEED to play in C Major if the backing chord is a C, that is pretty boring.


If you play E phrygian over a C major chord, you're playing C major.

If the backing track is only a Cmajor progression.You can play every major mode in the key of C


You could try, but you'd only be playing C major.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#16
Quote by Archeo Avis
If you play E phrygian over a C major chord, you're playing C major.


No, you're playing in the Key of C Major. If you make the root note an E and play that the focused note, then you are playing in E Phrygian.

That was the point of me starting this thread, to figure out how to practice soloing with E Phrygian.
#17
Quote by Ascendancy5
No, you're playing in the Key of C Major. If you make the root note an E and play that the focused note, then you are playing in E Phrygian.


If you play it over a C major chord, the root note is C, and you're playing C major.
The chord determines the mode...you can land on E all you want, it's still C major.

If you want to play E phrygian, play it over an E minor chord.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#18
The key of C Major is the C Major scale lol

To play in E Phrygian you would have to play over an Em chord or some other minor E chord (as long as there is no major second).
#19
Alright, so if the backing chord was E and you were playing notes only found in C Major, you would be playing the E Phrygian scale?
#21
Quote by Ascendancy5
Technically, you can play E Phrygian or D dorian if the backing chord is C. You don't NEED to play in C Major if the backing chord is a C, that is pretty boring.



You CANNOT play E phrygian or D dorian over a C major chord. The notes C D E F G A B are always C ionian over C major.

You clearly don't fully understand modes, as it is not less "boring" to try and play E phrygian instead of C ionian over a C major chord, because you are still playing the same scale, so you get exactly the same sound.

Modes are not box shapes; just because you play a lydian box position it doesn't mean you are playing lydian. You need to look at the chord you are playing over and see how the notes in the scale relate to it.
Quote by VR2005
Very good post Marmoseti, you're on the right track.



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#22
Quote by Ascendancy5
Alright, so if the backing chord was E and you were playing notes only found in C Major, you would be playing the E Phrygian scale?


Yes.
Don't think of modes as the major scale starting on a different root...that's a terrible way of explaining them that doesn't explain why they sound the way they do, or how they're used.

Phrygian is the major scale with a flat 2nd, 3rd, 6th, and 7th.
It has the formula 1-b2-b3-4-5-b6-b7.
If you want to play in C phrygian, take the C major scale and alter the appropriate notes. C phrygian is therefore C-Db-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#23
You can play E phrygian over C major becauese E Phrygian IS THE 3RD DEGREE OF THE MAJOR SCALE!Ascendancy5 what was your question again?( make it more clear).
#24
Quote by LightningboltX
You can play E phrygian over C major becauese E Phrygian IS THE 3RD DEGREE OF THE MAJOR SCALE!Ascendancy5 what was your question again?( make it more clear).


No you can't.

Does anyone even bother to read the posts in a thread anymore?
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#25
No, you can't, because the notes E F G A B C D over a C major chord ARE C ionian. It doesn't matter what box you are playing.
Quote by VR2005
Very good post Marmoseti, you're on the right track.



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#26
It isn't E phrygian, it is just C Major in a position that is reminiscent of E Phrygian.
#27
Quote by Archeo Avis
Yes.
Don't think of modes as the major scale starting on a different root...that's a terrible way of explaining them that doesn't explain why they sound the way they do, or how they're used.

Phrygian is the major scale with a flat 2nd, 3rd, 6th, and 7th.
It has the formula 1-b2-b3-4-5-b6-b7.
If you want to play in C phrygian, take the C major scale and alter the appropriate notes. C phrygian is therefore C-Db-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb.


So you are saying I should think of the modes as their own scale altogether, as opposed to thinking of them as just a subset to a Major scale?
#28
Quote by Ascendancy5
So you are saying I should think of the modes as their own scale altogether, as opposed to thinking of them as just a subset to a Major scale?


Yes.
#29
Quote by Ascendancy5
So you are saying I should think of the modes as their own scale altogether, as opposed to thinking of them as just a subset to a Major scale?


Exactly.

Ionian: 1-2-3-4-5-6-7
Dorian: 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7
Phrygian: 1-b2-b3-4-5-b6-b7
Lydian: 1-2-3-#4-5-6-7
Mixolydian: 1-2-3-4-5-6-b7
Aeolian: 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7
Locrian: 1-b2-b3-4-b5-b6-b7
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#30
You can solo in E Phrygian if you are in the key of C major because the second degree of C is Em and Phrygian is a minor mode.So if you solo in Phrygian in the key of C you are soloing in Em.To solo in the the key of C you must use the diatonic rules and follow C progression.C,Dm,Em,F,G,Am and Locrianbb(diminished).You must base you're rythm in chords of thet progression.
#31
It doesn't matter what position you play in or what degree you start on because if you play C D E F G A B over a C Major progression, it is C Ionian every single time.
#32
Quote by Archeo Avis
Exactly.

Ionian: 1-2-3-4-5-6-7
Dorian: 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7
Phrygian: 1-b2-b3-4-5-b6-b7
Lydian: 1-2-3-#4-5-6-7
Mixolydian: 1-2-3-4-5-6-b7
Aeolian: 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7
Locrian: 1-b2-b3-4-b5-b6-b7


Thanks for posting up the scales.
#33
Lightning, YOU CANNOT PLAY E PHRYGIAN OVER A C MAJOR CHORD.

Notes in E phrygian = C D E F G A B

Notes in C ionian = C D E F G A B

See any similarity? Over a C major chord, those notes are C ionian.
Quote by VR2005
Very good post Marmoseti, you're on the right track.



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Last edited by marmoseti at Jun 22, 2007,
#34
Like Esusb9. That brings out all of Phrygian's "unique notes"

susb9 chord: 1 4 5 b7 b2(9)
Phrygian mode: 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

You can try as hard as you want to play E Phrygian over a C major chord, but I think it'll just sound like you resolving to the third.


EDIT: Wow, looks like I had this page open for longer than I thought...

You can solo in E Phrygian if you are in the key of C major because the second degree of C is Em and Phrygian is a minor mode.So if you solo in Phrygian in the key of C you are soloing in Em.To solo in the the key of C you must use the diatonic rules and follow C progression.C,Dm,Em,F,G,Am and Locrianbb(diminished).You must base you're rythm in chords of thet progression.


Record a C major chord. Try playing E Phrygian over it. Does that sound Phrygian? Now record an Esusb9 chord and play E Phrygian over it. That sounds like Phrygian.
Last edited by kirbyrocknroll at Jun 22, 2007,
#35
The entire solo section of the Doors' Light My Fire is in Ab Dorian.
WHY IS EVERYONE IN THE PIT A FUCKING METALCORE KID
#36
Quote by Archeo Avis
If you play it over a C major chord, the root note is C, and you're playing C major.
The chord determines the mode...you can land on E all you want, it's still C major.

If you want to play E phrygian, play it over an E minor chord.


And if you aren't playing over a chord progression?
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#37
Quote by DaddyTwoFoot
And if you aren't playing over a chord progression?


If you're not playing over anything, the notes will gravitate most strongly to the ionian and aeolian modes.
Someones knowledge of guitar companies spelling determines what amps you can own. Really smart people can own things like Framus because they sound like they might be spelled with a "y" but they aren't.
#39
Oh god I am sick of bloody modes.

Okay, a mode of the major scale contains the same notes as the major scale, but the root is a different note. This is just explaining where modes come from, but I don't think of them like this when actually using them.
D Ionian (major) is D E F# G A B C#
E Dorian (second mode) is E F# G A B C# D
A mixolydian (fifth mode) is A B C# D E F# G
They contain the same notes but start on different root notes.

So, they contain the same notes but they are definately different scales. I think of modes as alterations to the major scale.
Ionian (Major) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Lydian 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
Mixolydian 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
Aeolian (Natural Minor) 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Locrian 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

So, for F Phrygian you start with the F major scale, F G A Bb C D E
Then flatten the 2 3 6 and 7 to get 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
And you end up with the notes F Gb Ab Bb C Db Eb.

Now, when playing modes over chords, look at the intervals making up the chord and the intervals making up the mode. If they match up, they will sound good together.
Say a Cm chord comes up, thats 1 b3 5. Look at the modes and you see that Dorian, Phrygian and Aeolian all contain those intervals.
So you could play C Dorian, C Phrygian or C Aeolian, which one you chose will give a different feel.
Now if an Amaj7 comes along, thats 1 3 5 7. Compare that to the modes and you see that you can play A Ionian or A Lydian, againg giving different feels.
What about a Bbm7b5? You see that the only mode with 1 b3 b5 b7 is Locrian, so you can play Bb Locrian
With an E7 (1 3 5 b7) you find that only Mixolydian fits, so you can play E mixolydian

JohnlJones Jazz-Theory Bit:
With that E7 you could play E Phrygian, with the b3 funtioning as a #2, to outline an altered dominant chord.
E7 - 1 3 4 b7
E Phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
This gives the intervals 1 b2 #2 3 4 5 b6 b7 which is a _11b9#9b13 chord.

Remember none of this is law, it's just a guide so don't be afraid to experiment.
Hope this helps
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#40
Quote by DaddyTwoFoot
And if you aren't playing over a chord progression?


That's when you can start to experiment with shifting modes


Listen to some modal jazz, it'll knock you out.