#3
listen to it, they sound very different, majors sound "in tune" no outstanding notes, generally a "happy" feel to them
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#4
i know that but the shapes are identical, so how do i know if say im in.....the key of A weather or not im in major or minor?
#5
the shapes are far from identical. The third interval is lowered a half step(did I say that right?). For example, in the Key of D, instead of playing F# you will play an F, making the song sound sad and almost out of tune for a second.
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#6
ok but say using the basic pentatonic box shape i play these notes

E
B
G 12 14 12
D
A
E

how do i know if its major or minor?
#7
Quote by halen_fan53
ok but say using the basic pentatonic box shape i play these notes

E
B
G 12 14 12
D
A
E

how do i know if its major or minor?


That's only two different notes, they could be in any number of keys being major or minor.
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#8
a major chord or scale will have a thicker happier sound
a minor key with have a sad sound.
you turn a major chord into a minor one by flattening the highest fretted note.

example:
A major

e:-0--
b:-2--
g:-2--
d:-2--
a:-0--
e:----

if you then flatten the highest fretted note it become a minor

e:-0-
b:-1-
g:-2-
d:-2-
a:-0-
e:----

at least, i think thats how it works
#9
Quote by Black-Metal

if you then flatten the highest fretted note it become a minor

I thought it was the root note that becomes flat to create a minor chord.
#11
Quick guide to chord construction: We'll use C major as a n example

C D E F G A B C

C major = 1, 3, 5 the 1st,3rd and 5th notes from teh scale. C E G.
C minor = 1,b3 (flattened 3rd), 5. C Eb G
Lowering the 3rd makes it a minor. Don't think of chords as one unit, think of them as a collection of notes. In the A to Aminor example given by black metal the 2 going to 1 is the third being flattened.

To determine wheter your in major or minor you need to look at the chords in the song, post them up and ill try and help.
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Go to your staff paper and re-write this song a half step down so on the paper it'll be like you have a "C" just move it down to a "B#"




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#12
Quote by Black-Metal
a major chord or scale will have a thicker happier sound
a minor key with have a sad sound.
you turn a major chord into a minor one by flattening the highest fretted note.

example:
A major

e:-0--
b:-2--
g:-2--
d:-2--
a:-0--
e:----

if you then flatten the highest fretted note it become a minor

e:-0-
b:-1-
g:-2-
d:-2-
a:-0-
e:----

at least, i think thats how it works


Way off. A major chord is constructed by taking the first note, the third note, and the fifth note (1-3-5) of that key and playing them together. A minor chord involves flattening the 3, making it a minor third instead of a major third. It has nothing to do with it being the "highest fretted note." That just happens to be the case with a few chords.

Quote by nedthehead
I thought it was the root note that becomes flat to create a minor chord.


Nope, third.

Quote by Black-Metal
is what i said not the root note anyway?


Nope. In your standard A major open chord, the order of the notes, from low to high, are A E A C# E, A being your root. What you flattened was the third of the A major scale, C#, to become C, the minor third.
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Metalheads are the worst thing that ever happened to metal.
#13
Quote by halen_fan53
ok but say using the basic pentatonic box shape i play these notes

E
B
G 12 14 12
D
A
E

how do i know if its major or minor?


Hello.
I think I know what's confusing you.

First things first: The minor pentatonic is, Root, flatted 3rd, 4th, 5th, flatted 7th, Root.
So E minor pentatonic has the notes, E, G, A, B, D, E.
The major pentatonic is Root, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th , root.
so E major pentatonic has the notes E F# G# B C# E

Now, say you put your fingers in the 'basic' pentatonic shape and play the notes E B G D A E, as you say. Obviously those are not the notes of the E major pentatonic but those of E minor. So you are playing in E minor pentatonic, and not E major. if you play something in e major you will note the difference.

but I think that's not what's confusing you. because those notes mentioned abobe belong in E minor pentatonic... but conversely, if you take G major pentatonic, the notes of g major pentatonic are G A B D E G... which are the same as those in E minor pentatonic. So if you just put your hand in the basic position and play those notes, how do you know if you're playing in E minor and not in G major?

Well, the answer to this, is best explained by explaining scales a bit. classifying scales consists of two parts. we say a scale is minor, major, and by that we are classifying what is the intervalic structure of the scale, whether it contains the intervals of minor pentatonic (Root, flatted 3rd, 4th, 5th, flatted 7th, Root) or major (Root, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 7th , root.). But that's not the whole story. By stating a scale, we also classify its keytone and that's equally important. We say we are in E pentatonic or A pentatonic etc. The keytone is the note around which the scale is build. when you are writing a melodic in a particular scale, or creating a harmonic progression based on a scale, the keytone is the note through which the whole passage resolves... think of it as the 'home' of the passage... you move away from it and towards it.

What that means is that, in a melody based on a scale you tend to start on the keynote, end on the keynote and revolve around it. It's not the notes by themselves that matter. if you just play E G A B E G, each note with 10 second interval by each other, and distinct from the other note, you will really have no way of knowing whther the passage you are playing is in E minor or G major. But if you start on the note E, and play a passage using the notes of E minor pentatonic, finishing on E, you will get a different sound than if you start on G and play the notes, ending on G.

How does that translate on guitar then?
Say you play the basic pentatonic shape as you said, which I assume you mean
O - - O
O - - O
O - O
O - O
O - O
O - - O

say you up this shape up in the 12th fret, so the lowest note in the shape is E. The 0s in the chart above are the notes you play in the passage, and those notes belong in both E minor and G major. how do you know how to play then to be in each key? Well, the fact is, the pattern is not the same in minor/major!


X - - O
O - - O
O - O
O - X
O - O
X - - O

The above is the pattern of the minor pentatonic. In this chart I've put Xs to mark the roots of the pattern. So if you want to play in minor pentatonic, you will have to start on one of the Xs and move up or down the scale, usually ending in an X again. So if you move this pattern up or down the fretboard, you'll be able to play in minor pentatonic, starting at the root, and playing the intervals of the minor pentatonic scale.

O - - X
O - - O
X - O
O - O
O - O
O - - X

The above is the passage for the major pentatonic. If you want to play something in major pentatonic, you will have to play using Xs as the root. So you will start to start on a note marked by X on this chart and move up or down... thus you're playing the intervals of the major pentatonic,not of the minor. Note that if you put the shape up on the 12th fret, the X now marks the G notes... whereas in the previous chart the Xs marked the E notes. put the shape in the 12th fret, and start on an E note and play up to the next E note, as in the first chart above this one. then keeping your fingers in the same shape start on the G note, and play up to the next G as in this chart. Even though the notes are the same, you will note you get a different sound! so if you want to play in a major pentatonic pattern you will play using this shape.


What I hope you've realized by reading this now, is that this shapes are really only usefull if you want to play a pentatonic passage whose first notes are either on the first, 6th, 3rd (if you're playing in minor) or 4th (if you are playing in major). You can't use this shape to play a pentatonic passage if you're planning to start on any of the other strings. So eventually you'll have to learn all the pentatonic shapes and how they fit together if you want to be able to truly play anywhere on the neck.


A final point. This is a bit more arcane and advanced, but still. i said that if you're playing in E minor pentatonic (I'm using this just as an example), you'll have to start and end on E to really get the scale color across, and as a result of this, can only the basic pentatonic pattern if you're starting on the 1st 6th or 3rd strings. this is not entirely true. You can start a melody or chord progression on any note on the scale if you so wish it- there is not rule that prevents you from doing so, but you will still retain the scale colour (the partcicular minor sound in this example), because the E note, being the keynote, will be the most repeated note in the melody and the most prominent one- so the passage will still resolve around it. but what if you decide to play a passage that neither starts on the keynote, and doesn't repeat the keynote more than the rest? if you do that in E minor- then, well, you really can't know whether you are in E minor or G major. if you do that using a chord progression, you'd say that the passage is harmonically ambiguous- it is difficult to come to grips with what color the passage is in, whether it is major or minor. This can actually be a good trick, if you to use it in a song, in a section where you want to confuse the listeners and create a sense of confusion or uncertainty. but if you're going to do something like that you'll have to be extra careful, because if you overdo it, it won't sound good, and you'll lose your listeners. In the vast majority of cases you'll be starting and finishing in the keynote.
Last edited by C130 at Jun 30, 2007,
#14
major -


minor -
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#15
Quote by browar
major -


minor -
Oh, come OFF it! That's just stupid!


...and by "stupid" I mean: I wish I had thought of it first.


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#16
Despite all that, the minor pentatonic doesn't sound sad...
#17
^^ Play G chord and pentatonic in E. Then play G chord and pentatonic in G. You'll see the difference.
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