#1
Ok, so, I was reading an article on intervals, on Wikipedia, and the contents of the latter clashed with my concept of intervals. See, I follow the 1 2 3 4 5 6 method of intervals. Now, I've been introduced to perfect fifths, minor thirds and whatnot.

So, I came across this very confusing line:
"There are four semitones between B and Eb, but his interval is not a major third, but a diminished fourth, a relatively rare interval (but which does appear naturally as part of the harmonic minor scale."

Ok, first question:

How do we know it's diminished? I know that dimished means a semitone less, and augmented is a semitone up.

Second:
a relatively rare interval (but which does appear naturally as part of the harmonic minor scale


Naturally in what sense? Natural, as in, without accidentals? Or, blah?

The formula for HM is

1,2,b3,4,5,b6,7


Apply that to C major, and you get
C D Eb F G Ab B


Ok, so where's the diminished fourth? Isn't a fourth supposed to be the fourth note?
If it were the latter, the fourth would be F, but it's not dim/aug.

Please explain, simply. Your music mumbo jumbo scares me. Seriously.
#2
dim'd 4th and major third are enharmonic. it depends on the context, usage and scale. i don't know about there being four semitones between the B and Eb. i'm not sure if it's including B.... the wording is just funky i guess, because between B and Eb there is C,C#/Db,D. those are the notes BETWEEN. i wonder who wrote that and if they had been up all night or something. in B major, Eb is the major 3rd. but in some scales it can be considered a dim'd 4th.
#3
well YOUR mumbo jumbo just confuses me
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#4
Quote by sTx
Ok, so, I was reading an article on intervals, on Wikipedia, and the contents of the latter clashed with my concept of intervals. See, I follow the 1 2 3 4 5 6 method of intervals. Now, I've been introduced to perfect fifths, minor thirds and whatnot.

So, I came across this very confusing line:
"There are four semitones between B and Eb, but his interval is not a major third, but a diminished fourth, a relatively rare interval (but which does appear naturally as part of the harmonic minor scale."

Ok, first question:

How do we know it's diminished? I know that dimished means a semitone less, and augmented is a semitone up.

Second:


Naturally in what sense? Natural, as in, without accidentals? Or, blah?

The formula for HM is

1,2,b3,4,5,b6,7


Apply that to C major, and you get
C D Eb F G Ab B


Ok, so where's the diminished fourth? Isn't a fourth supposed to be the fourth note?
If it were the latter, the fourth would be F, but it's not dim/aug.

Please explain, simply. Your music mumbo jumbo scares me. Seriously.


There is a diminished 4th between the B(7th step) and the Eb(3rd step).

from B to E = P4 from B to Eb = diminished 4th.
#5
Quote by z4twenny
in B major, Eb is the major 3rd. but in some scales it can be considered a dim'd 4th.


In B major, D# is the major third.

TS: The diminished 4th occurs naturally in harmonic minor between the major 7th (B) and the minor third (Eb). This is where the diminished 4th exists in harmonic minor.
#6
One important thing to remember with music, is that you can get a lot further into detail than anyone really needs to, there are many things which are the 'correct' way of sayings (ie enharmonically or otherwise), but from my exposure to the music world, its mostly done by people who want to portray a more mystical quality around what they do. These are the same sorts of people who would refer to things as double sharps/flats (ie a tone away, or generally the next note - Abb = G), its mostly pointlessly confusing and can generally be ignored whilst still understanding how to use it...
PROJECT 84
#8
Quote by sTx
Ok, so, I was reading an article on intervals, on Wikipedia, and the contents of the latter clashed with my concept of intervals. See, I follow the 1 2 3 4 5 6 method of intervals. Now, I've been introduced to perfect fifths, minor thirds and whatnot.

So, I came across this very confusing line:
"There are four semitones between B and Eb, but his interval is not a major third, but a diminished fourth, a relatively rare interval (but which does appear naturally as part of the harmonic minor scale."

Ok, first question:

How do we know it's diminished? I know that dimished means a semitone less, and augmented is a semitone up.

Second:


Naturally in what sense? Natural, as in, without accidentals? Or, blah?

The formula for HM is

1,2,b3,4,5,b6,7


Apply that to C major, and you get
C D Eb F G Ab B


Ok, so where's the diminished fourth? Isn't a fourth supposed to be the fourth note?
If it were the latter, the fourth would be F, but it's not dim/aug.

Please explain, simply. Your music mumbo jumbo scares me. Seriously.


There are different terms of the "same" intervals being used. When talking about intervals only, it doesn't matter if you say Major 3rd or diminished 4th. It's the same notes!

However, if you're forming chords og scales, the different names and terms are quite useful. For example, if I were to write an Cm#5 with only the "normal" interval names it would become Cmb6omit5 and that's without a doubt harder to read than Cm#5. If you just study some chord construction, you'll grasp these terms fast. They're not as hard as they look!
#9
Quote by Johnljones7443
In B major, D# is the major third.

TS: The diminished 4th occurs naturally in harmonic minor between the major 7th (B) and the minor third (Eb). This is where the diminished 4th exists in harmonic minor.


you're right, sorry, it's been a long day, my brain is tired not trying to give out bad info. it does happen from time to time though.

edit:

and i disagree with stilosguitar. music is just a different language. you learn the language so you can speak it with other people who know the language. i think the best way to keep it "mystical" sounding is by saying "i just do this here and it sounds like this" which really is the basis of music theory without names (which is what i knew long before i knew theory, alot of people "know" theory like this) but once you learn more of the rules of theory you start to understand and see the bigger picture instead of the bits and pieces. i don't know if you can really examine a piece too much. i've gone so far as to relate and compare one note to every other note in the song and gone through the whole song doing that. that MIGHT be too much. but even then it's an incredible learning experience.
Last edited by z4twenny at Jul 30, 2007,
#10
I think the main issue with your confusion is that you used wikipedia as your refrence in the first place..mostly everything on that site can be edited by ANYONE..the main people who keep track of that site cant truly validate any information there..they just go by what "sounds right"..dont ever take anything on that site seriously
Death..Is Just The Beginning..
#11
Quote by stilosguitar
One important thing to remember with music, is that you can get a lot further into detail than anyone really needs to, there are many things which are the 'correct' way of sayings (ie enharmonically or otherwise), but from my exposure to the music world, its mostly done by people who want to portray a more mystical quality around what they do. These are the same sorts of people who would refer to things as double sharps/flats (ie a tone away, or generally the next note - Abb = G), its mostly pointlessly confusing and can generally be ignored whilst still understanding how to use it...


As Johnl has said before, if you walk into a jazz bar and say that your going to get a pole up your arse

Possibly it sounds mystical to you because you don't understand it?
Quote by cakemonster91

*chuckle* A peanut. With a face.



Go to your staff paper and re-write this song a half step down so on the paper it'll be like you have a "C" just move it down to a "B#"




Know your theory, then play like you don't.

#12
Quote by Peanut1614
As Johnl has said before, if you walk into a jazz bar and say that your going to get a pole up your arse


I did?
#13
By the numbers...
How do we know it's diminished? I know that diminished means a semitone less, and augmented is a semitone up.
The interval quality sequence, by size, goes like this (smallest to largest):

Group 1 Intervals (unisons, 4ths, 5ths and octaves) - diminished / perfect / augmented (except that the diminished unison does not exist)

Group 2 Intervals (2nds, 3rds, 6ths, 7ths, and their octaves) - diminished / minor / major / augmented

These are the same sorts of people who would refer to things as double sharps/flats (ie a tone away, or generally the next note - Abb = G), its mostly pointlessly confusing and can generally be ignored whilst still understanding how to use it
If you don't understand why we "mystical" musicians use double-sharps and double-flats, you need to learn before you really embarrass yourself. Find a competent teacher and acquire understanding.
When talking about intervals only, it doesn't matter if you say Major 3rd or diminished 4th. It's the same notes!
No, they're not the same notes. Notes are what you see; Tones are what you hear. And it most certainly does matter whether you say major 3rd or diminished 4th. They are completely different notes, and serve completely different functions. If you don't understand this, find a competent teacher and have him or her explain it to you.
All things are difficult before they are easy.
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#14
Quote by DiamondOfBlood
I think the main issue with your confusion is that you used wikipedia as your refrence in the first place..mostly everything on that site can be edited by ANYONE..the main people who keep track of that site cant truly validate any information there..they just go by what "sounds right"..dont ever take anything on that site seriously


Then which site should I follow?
#16
Quote by z4twenny
dim'd 4th and major third are enharmonic. it depends on the context, usage and scale. i don't know about there being four semitones between the B and Eb. i'm not sure if it's including B.... the wording is just funky i guess, because between B and Eb there is C,C#/Db,D. those are the notes BETWEEN. i wonder who wrote that and if they had been up all night or something. in B major, Eb is the major 3rd. but in some scales it can be considered a dim'd 4th.


There are four semitones between B and Eb. Treat them like steps as if you were counting, the same as there would be four between 1 and 5.

B-C, C-C#/Db, C#/Db-D, D-D#/Eb
#17
Quote by DiamondOfBlood
I think the main issue with your confusion is that you used wikipedia as your refrence in the first place..mostly everything on that site can be edited by ANYONE..the main people who keep track of that site cant truly validate any information there..they just go by what "sounds right"..dont ever take anything on that site seriously


Well Wiki is actually a pretty good source. I havent seen any problems yet as far as music explanations. The real problem here is that he was looking in the wrong place. The diminished 4th doesnt happen between 1 and 4, it happens between 7th and 3rd steps of harmonic minor. The confusion is more likely a matter of inexperience with theory. Wiki was right on in this case.
#18
Quote by Johnljones7443
I did?


Yeh, I think it was in some thread where a dude was bitching about how 'stuck up musicians are', i got warned in that thread off elven if you wana see it check my user thingy and you'll find the thread me thinks? Not sure but you've definatly said it
Quote by cakemonster91

*chuckle* A peanut. With a face.



Go to your staff paper and re-write this song a half step down so on the paper it'll be like you have a "C" just move it down to a "B#"




Know your theory, then play like you don't.

#19
^Gotcha. It wasn't me..

Quote by Archeo Avis
The notes have completely different functions. A# is incorrect, and if you said it in a jazz club you would be anally raped...with a rake.
#20
The best way to get yourself started recognising intervals is to sing them. Go through the major scale in whichever key you like and play intervals, then sing them to yourself...give yourself a "feel" for them.
Actually called Mark!

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#21
Quote by GuitarMunky
Well Wiki is actually a pretty good source. I havent seen any problems yet as far as music explanations. The real problem here is that he was looking in the wrong place. The diminished 4th doesnt happen between 1 and 4, it happens between 7th and 3rd steps of harmonic minor. The confusion is more likely a matter of inexperience with theory. Wiki was right on in this case.


well if it's right it's right..but all I'm saying is that the website isnt entriely credible..I've seen posts that make absolutley no sense on an article..such as "is a fag" and "*****" and a bunch of random sentences that have nothing to do with the topic..search around the site and see for yourself..just thought I'd bring that up..my school shuns anything to do with wiki...put it as a source for a paper and your good as screwed..
Death..Is Just The Beginning..
#22
Quote by stilosguitar
One important thing to remember with music, is that you can get a lot further into detail than anyone really needs to, there are many things which are the 'correct' way of sayings (ie enharmonically or otherwise), but from my exposure to the music world, its mostly done by people who want to portray a more mystical quality around what they do. These are the same sorts of people who would refer to things as double sharps/flats (ie a tone away, or generally the next note - Abb = G), its mostly pointlessly confusing and can generally be ignored whilst still understanding how to use it...
Have you ever played a piece with a double flat or sharp?
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#23
Quote by John Swift
Have you ever played a piece with a double flat or sharp?


I have, it was the bass part to "That Ole Devil Called Love"
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