i am the kid
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Join date: Jul 2006
831 IQ
#1
hello folks

a want to know how you go about playing over a chord prog lets use the example of Dm GM FM Em CM in the key of C. i understand a bit about modes and know the major scale. i just need advise on how 2 go about changeing scales/modes with the chords how do you learn how 2 do this ? help me please
Rileh
Registered User
Join date: Aug 2007
10 IQ
#2
Well if your in the key of C, your playing over a II-V-IV-III-I progression.

For Dm, you will solo over a D Dorian scale

For GM, you will solo over a G Mixolydian Scale

For FM, you will solo over a F Lydian Scale

For Em, you will solo over a E Phrygian Scale

and for CM, it'll be the C Ionian (or major) scale.

If this fails, and the changes get too difficult, you can always fudge your way through a piece playing a C pentatonic, because it's any old n00bs way of getting an easy way out.

Jazz is much less forgiving though.
demonofthenight
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Join date: Mar 2007
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#3
Well, in the key of C, you would play the modes dorian mixolydian lydian phygrian ionian, in that order over your chords.

And I would play exactly that. Use a couple of arpeggios, use some sweet improvisation (use your ears its really not that hard), use some dissonance and use some other peoples licks. And there, an average sounding solo.

And read the sticky if you want to know how to get the modes out of a chord progression. Its difficult to explain, so I'd probably just confuse you.
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      *-|-*    (_)     `-’
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i am the kid
Registered User
Join date: Jul 2006
831 IQ
#4
Quote by demonofthenight
Well, in the key of C, you would play the modes dorian mixolydian lydian phygrian ionian, in that order over your chords.

And I would play exactly that. Use a couple of arpeggios, use some sweet improvisation (use your ears its really not that hard), use some dissonance and use some other peoples licks. And there, an average sounding solo.

And read the sticky if you want to know how to get the modes out of a chord progression. Its difficult to explain, so I'd probably just confuse you.



yes a get that but i need two now how you do it .as in do you just use the 1 patrn and change the root or do you change patters lol if you know what i mean
steven seagull
not really a seagull
Join date: Oct 2006
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#5
You don't need to change patterns at all, just be aware of the notes you're playing. There's only 12 notes on the guitar, that's all. All scales share notes with other scales, so if the chords are changing you just need to be aware of whether the notes you're playing still fit, and where they sit in relation to the new chord. It's got nothing to do with patterns per se, it's all about the sound.

For example, if the underlying chord is G you could start soloing G minor pentatonic, if the chord then switches to Bb then you're playing Bb major pentatonic. You're still playing exactly the same notes, but the underlying chord means they have a different scalar definition and will also sound different.

Likewise you can solo in C major over a C chord, but if the chord changes to E then you'll be playing E Phrygian, again whilst still playing exactly the same notes. Scales do not exist as musical entities without chords to define them. If there's no chords then it's not a scale as such, it's just a fingering pattern. That's why you can't just decide to play lead guitar without first being a decent rhythm guitarist...you need to understand chords to solo over them.

What you need to do is look at your chord progression, find out which chord is the dominant one and then figurre out which scale/scales fit the chord progression. Once you've done that you can see which notes are common to all the scales which you can safely play whenever, which ones appear fairly frequently, all the way to the ones that may only fit with one chord. You can still use them, but they'll be more useful as passing notes or as the note that leads into the correct chord.
Actually called Mark!

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demonofthenight
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Join date: Mar 2007
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#6
Personally, I change both, the root and the pattern.

I make sure that the lowest note in the pattern I'm using is the same as the chord I'm using.

Here are some patterns copied directly from the STICKY hint hint, read the sticky
Ionian
|R|-|o|-|o|
|-|-|o|-|o|
|-|o|o|-|o|
|-|o|R|-|o|
|o|-|o|-|o|
|R|-|o|-|o|
Dorian
|R|-|o|o|-|
|o|-|o|o|-|
|o|-|o|-|-|
|o|-|R|-|o|
|o|-|o|-|o|
|R|-|o|o|-|
Phrygian
|R|o|-|o|
|o|o|-|o|
|o|-|o|-|
|o|-|R|o|
|o|-|o|o|
|R|o|-|o|
Lydian
|R|-|o|-|o|
|o|-|o|-|o|
|-|o|-|o|-|
|-|o|R|-|o|
|-|o|o|-|o|
|R|-|o|-|o|
Mixolydian
|R|-|o|-|o|
|o|-|o|o|-|
|-|o|o|-|-|
|o|-|R|-|o|
|o|-|o|-|o|
|R|-|o|-|o|
Aeolian
|R|-|o|o|-|
|o|o|-|o|-|
|o|-|o|-|-|
|o|-|R|-|o|
|o|-|o|o|-|
|R|-|o|o|-|
Locrian
|R|o|-|o|
|-|o|-|o|
|o|-|o|o|
|o|-|R|o|
|o|o|-|o|
|R|o|-|o|


Here are some A string patterns I use. Wouldn't mind if someone fixed them up and asked a mod to put it in the sticky.

Ionian
|-|o|-|o|-|
|-|o|-|o|o|
|o|-|o|R|-|
|o|o|-|o|-|
|-|R|-|o|-|
|-|-|-|-|-|
Dorian
|-|o|-|o|o|
|-|o|o|-|o|
|o|o|-|R|-|
|-|o|-|o|-|
|-|R|-|o|o|
|-|-|-|-|-|
phrygian
|-|o|o|-|o|
|o|-|o|-|o|
|-|o|-|R|-|
|-|o|-|o|o|
|-|R|o|-|o|
|-|-|-|-|-|
lydian
|o|o|-|o|-|
|-|o|-|o|-|
|o|-|o|R|-|
|o|-|o|o|-|
|-|R|-|o|-|
|-|-|-|-|-|
mixolydian
|-|o|-|o|o|
|-|o|-|o|o|
|o|o|-|R|-|
|o|o|-|o|-|
|-|R|-|o|-|
|-|-|-|-|-|
aeolian
|-|o|o|-|o|
|-|o|o|-|o|
|-|o|-|R|-|
|-|o|-|o|o|
|-|R|-|o|o|
|-|-|-|-|-|
locrian
|-|o|-|o|-|
|-|o|-|o|o|
|o|-|R|o|-|
|o|o|-|o|-|
|R|o|-|o|-|
|-|-|-|-|-|
        ,
        |\
[U]        | |                     [/U]
[U]        |/     .-.              [/U]
[U]       /|_     `-’       |      [/U]
[U]      //| \      |       |      [/U]
[U]     | \|_ |     |     .-|      [/U]
      *-|-*    (_)     `-’
        |
        L.
Last edited by demonofthenight at Aug 27, 2007,
steven seagull
not really a seagull
Join date: Oct 2006
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#7
No offence, but that's not really much help at all - those box patterns have been been crippling players musical development for years. People get all worked up about modes and rush to learn the different box patterns without any understanding of what's actually going on. A few years down the line they realise that they busted a gut "learning" the same thing 6 times over, and if they's just spent a little more time on the theory side then it would all have fallen into place on it's own.
Actually called Mark!

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demonofthenight
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Join date: Mar 2007
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#8
Quote by steven seagull
No offence, but that's not really much help at all - those box patterns have been been crippling players musical development for years. People get all worked up about modes and rush to learn the different box patterns without any understanding of what's actually going on. A few years down the line they realise that they busted a gut "learning" the same thing 6 times over, and if they's just spent a little more time on the theory side then it would all have fallen into place on it's own.
Hey, if you want to explain intervals to them and what each little o is what interval and what each interval sounds like and about consonance and dissonance and so on, be my guest. Just expect to be flamed and corrected.

If you think I'm not much help, than be a help and explain something helpfull. Don't just flame me for trying
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[U]        |/     .-.              [/U]
[U]       /|_     `-’       |      [/U]
[U]      //| \      |       |      [/U]
[U]     | \|_ |     |     .-|      [/U]
      *-|-*    (_)     `-’
        |
        L.
steven seagull
not really a seagull
Join date: Oct 2006
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#9
I already helped - I explained to the TS that in reality it's not all that complicated, and that he doesn't necessarily have to change what he's playing at all as the simple fact of the underlying chord changing will change the definition, scale-wise, of the notes he's playing.
Actually called Mark!

Quote by TNfootballfan62
People with a duck for their avatar always give good advice.

...it's a seagull

Quote by Dave_Mc
i wanna see a clip of a recto buying some groceries.


stuffmycatswatchontv.tumblr.com
demonofthenight
UG Spammer
Join date: Mar 2007
976 IQ
#10
Thats actually pretty useless, its actually better to know the intervals and what they sound like over the chords.

Jazz musicians don't always play the same 7 notes over a solo. They could play 2 different phrygian modes, 4 mixolydian mode and 3 ionian modes over the same progression (and yes thats more than seven modes, they might use more than different chords you see).
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[U]        |/     .-.              [/U]
[U]       /|_     `-’       |      [/U]
[U]      //| \      |       |      [/U]
[U]     | \|_ |     |     .-|      [/U]
      *-|-*    (_)     `-’
        |
        L.
jimmypage1904
Registered User
Join date: Sep 2006
687 IQ
#11
Look when playing the cmajor scale over those chords, you're indirectly playing modes. you just sometimes don't know it. just think what notes you're using and than solo so like GM you will have G, B, D, F as your main notes because it'll represnt the 5th mode th best. because the 5th mode is suited for the G7 chord, but just be sure to see what notes you use
branny1982
UG Monkey
Join date: Jan 2007
1,049 IQ
#12
as somebody who is just about getting his theory together, i must say that box patterns can REALLY hinder progress if not used correctly.

BUT i personally find them very useful as long as you dont restrict yourself with them.
you need to know those patterns when the root is on the E(and D) string and when the root is on the A(and G) string.
The problem you find is that if you restrict to the box, you may not know where to go at the high end... for example, a couple of those boxes only show up the the second 6th.
Mike_Philippov
UG Newbie
Join date: Apr 2006
450 IQ
#13
This progression is in the key of C major, so you need to play the notes of the C major scale over it.

There is no need to think about modes in this case, because its ALWAYS the progression that determines the key/mode you are in. In this case, this progression is clearly in the key of C major/C ionian. So no matter how you think about it you will be playing notes C D E F G A B in some order.

Even if you said you are using the phrygian FINGERING, or the lydian FINGERING, that still wouldn't change the fact that to the listeners ear this is still a progression in C major and you are using the notes of the major scale to solo over it.

To use modes, the progression must be changed to fit a particular mode...

Hope this helps a bit. Let me know if something is not clear.

Take care,
Mike Philippov
areola
Registered User
Join date: Feb 2007
204 IQ
#14
Say I map out the entire fretbaord with the C major scale and solo all over it over the chord progression. When there's a chord change, I would hit the exact note.

Would I be considered playing the modes?
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Mike_Philippov
UG Newbie
Join date: Apr 2006
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#15
It is the CHORDS that determine the mode, NOT the scale/fingering you are using! In other words, you can play the Locrian fingering in the key of C from B to B, but if you are playing over a C F G (I IV V) progression, you are NOT using the Locrian mode! You are using the Ionian mode, because the CHORDS establish the key.

If you wanted to make it sound like the progression was in the Locrian mode, emphasize the B diminished chord (in the key of C) and make it sound like the "home" chord instead of the C chord.

Hope this helps.

Mike Philippov
KiErAn123
Banned
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#16
Heres a tip for Soloing:

Dont worry about scales. Just hear the melody of the solo in your head and try to play that. One way to get good at this is to have a chord progression, and just hae a whole tone solo, where it is one whole note every bar. Dont just sink into playing the root, play chromatics, 6ths. 7ths. And make it all flow together, descending, ascending stuff like that. And then just start to elaborate on those notes and play with the chords that it is in wherever you are playing it. It will be difficult at first, but once you start to hear melodies and be aware of where you are it will be very easy and will sound much better then playing in scales.

Dont rely too much on scales. All the masters arent thinking about it, they are just thinking about a good melody in their heads. a solo should tell a story, not just be blaring shred speed. Think of it this way. If you were reading a story, you would want the writing to be paced, with slow parts, powerful parts, stuff like that. you wouldnt want to book to be blasting at you at full speed the whole time.
bluesrocker101
Danny
Join date: Jul 2005
997 IQ
#17
Quote by demonofthenight
Hey, if you want to explain intervals to them and what each little o is what interval and what each interval sounds like and about consonance and dissonance and so on, be my guest. Just expect to be flamed and corrected.

If you think I'm not much help, than be a help and explain something helpfull. Don't just flame me for trying


Hey, he IS being helpful. Infact, he's not only giving advice to the TS, he's giving advice to everyone that are currently learning modes.

TS, have you checked out Melodic Control? Its long, but it's worth it.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5777562536751428345

And you can do many things when it comes to solo over chord changes. You could choose to do one scale (in this case, any mode of C major, depending on which it resolves to) or you could switch things up through Pitch Axis Theory. Really, you just have to play and find a preference.
DANNY

Quote by kevinm4435 to some guy
hey d00d i herd u dont like shred u r a genius 4 thinkin dat. all shred is fukin lame wit no soul u no wat im sayin??
z4twenny
UG's resident Psychopath
Join date: Nov 2005
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#18
^ i think in the beginning this is bad advice. you need to know how this stuff works before moving on. in other words, you need to know the rules before you break them. also chances are if the TS hears a melody in his head its more than likely that its in key of the song being played, so knowing the scale and the intervals will help get the idea out from their head into the actual music a lot quicker.

this statement is a variation on the whole "screw scales and theory and just play with feeling" to which i've retorted before "a lot of people apparently don't know how they feel cuz that lead sounds AWFUL"
bluesrocker101
Danny
Join date: Jul 2005
997 IQ
#19
Quote by steven seagull
No offence, but that's not really much help at all - those box patterns have been been crippling players musical development for years. People get all worked up about modes and rush to learn the different box patterns without any understanding of what's actually going on. A few years down the line they realise that they busted a gut "learning" the same thing 6 times over, and if they's just spent a little more time on the theory side then it would all have fallen into place on it's own.


This is the advice I was talking about. I've seen many people 'learn modes" like this, and are always confused.
DANNY

Quote by kevinm4435 to some guy
hey d00d i herd u dont like shred u r a genius 4 thinkin dat. all shred is fukin lame wit no soul u no wat im sayin??
Last edited by bluesrocker101 at Aug 27, 2007,
GuitarMunky
I play guitar n stuff
Join date: May 2007
115 IQ
#20
its really as simple as this:
- know the key - use the appropriate scale

(when it changes key... change with it)

You asked how you go about learning this:

study theory... understand keys and chord progressions
When you can understand what key a particular group of chords is in, youll be able to play over them.

its really as simple as that (the concept is simple...getting yourself to that point takes work though)
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 27, 2007,
edg
Registered User
Join date: May 2005
2,035 IQ
#21
Yeah, with this progression its all key of C. If you're thinking modes, you're
probably thinking way too much (unless you want to make scale subs). This
particular progression you just need to use C major. It also helps to be aware
of the tonal center movement of the progression if you want to outline the chords.

Quote by demonofthenight
Personally, I change both, the root and the pattern.

I make sure that the lowest note in the pattern I'm using is the same as the chord I'm using.


Oh my! I'd think that would make for a very disjointed solo shifting your fingering
on every chord.
demonofthenight
UG Spammer
Join date: Mar 2007
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#22
Quote by edg
Oh my! I'd think that would make for a very disjointed solo shifting your fingering on every chord.
Works for me.

And if you know what your doing, box patterns are VERY usefull (once again, if you know exactly what your doing). They're in the sticky for a reason.
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[U]        |/     .-.              [/U]
[U]       /|_     `-’       |      [/U]
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[U]     | \|_ |     |     .-|      [/U]
      *-|-*    (_)     `-’
        |
        L.
guitarviz
Registered User
Join date: Jun 2006
76 IQ
#23
Quote by edg
If you're thinking modes, you're probably thinking way too much (unless you want to make scale subs).


yes.