#1
Say i want to play strictly in a phrygian scale. So the starting of the scale would always be the 3rd note of the corresponding major scale key. Am i right? Does anyone understand what I m trying to say?

Eg: The key is C major or A minor, then I play a phrygian scale starting on the E note.
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#4
Quote by zsnopek
just play F# minor scale over Cmajor.. that's the phrygian mode
Wha... F#minor isn't in the key of Cmajor. I think thats E minor that your looking for.

And looking at the phyrgian mode like that is wrong. Either the 3rd degree of the major scale or t, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7
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#5
this is why theory confuses me :s
Quote by Ghostmaker
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#6
I'm sorry.. that was i typo.. i meant F minor scale

F minor - F G G# A# C C# D#
C Phrygian - C C# D# F G G# A#
#7
Quote by zsnopek
I'm sorry.. that was i typo.. i meant F minor scale
F minor is still wrong. F minor has a g# in it, a note out of key in Cmajor.

Here we are talking about E phyrgian (which is in the key of C major), not C phyrgian.
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#8
The way i look at modes...

Let's say you are looking for C Lydian mode.. we know that Lydian is a major mode and it's the 4th step of major scale...

So I take C and count 4 notes backward.. thats G major.. so.. we could play G major scale over C and it will sound like lydian mode..
Last edited by zsnopek at Aug 29, 2007,
#9
your first thoughts were correct, everything else might just confuse you. the phrygian scale is the notes of a major scale with the third of that scale as your root. So yes, an E phrygian would be:

e f g a b c d e

The notes are the same as the key of C.
"I see my light come shining from the west down to the east
Any day now, any day now I shall be released"

Know any good teachers in NY, especially skilled in teaching ear training? Tell me
#10
Quote by demonofthenight
F minor is still wrong. F minor has a g# in it, a note out of key in Cmajor.

Here we are talking about E phyrgian (which is in the key of C major), not C phyrgian.


^He is correct in saying F Aeolian and C Phrygian are relative though - only he has spelt them incorrectly which has led to confusion on your part..

F Aeolian: F - G - Ab - Bb - C - Db - Eb.
C Phrygian: C - Db - Eb - F - G - Ab - Bb.
#11
Quote by zsnopek
The way i look at modes...

Let's say you are looking for C Lydian mode.. we know that Lydian is a major mode and it's the 5th step of major scale...

So I take C and count 5 notes backward.. thats F major.. so.. we could play F major over C and it will sound like lydian mode..
But thats not taking into account the modes intervals, which is what makes the mode sound like the mode. Think of modes as their own sepparate scales (thats what so many people say on UG)

Quote by Johnljones7443
^He is correct in saying F Aeolian and C Phrygian are relative though - only he has spelt them incorrectly which has led to confusion on your part..

F Aeolian: F - G - Ab - Bb - C - Db - Eb.
C Phrygian: C - Db - Eb - F - G - Ab - Bb.

Yeah I realised that a little latter, what confused me was that I thought he was talking about E phrygian.
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        L.
#13
Quote by zsnopek
okay.. my bad.. and it's the 4th degree.. damn typos XDD
Thats all good, but the phyrgian is the 3rd degree, not the fourth. The fourth degree of the major scale is the lydian mode, a major mode.
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#14
edit: a lot of posts happened since i started typing. John, I thought he was looking for the phrygian that comes from a C major scale, not C phrygian.

zsnopek this is more for u now than the threadstarter:

If you call something C lydian, it means a lydian scale STARTING ON the note C. It does NOT mean the lydian scale you could make by using all of the notes of C major. That scale, which is from the FOURTH scale degree of C, would be called F lydian.

In addition, when you spell scales, you try to include each letter name if those notes are representative of all different scale degrees. This will show more clearly what note is what degree. So for your example, f minor is:

F G Ab Bb C Db Eb F

It will be much clearer to call the 2nd a G and the 3rd an Ab, instead of both being some type of G. There are cases where you will repeat a letter, because in fact you may have multiple seconds, but for most cases, and for all of the diatonic modes, stick with using each letter.
"I see my light come shining from the west down to the east
Any day now, any day now I shall be released"

Know any good teachers in NY, especially skilled in teaching ear training? Tell me
#15
ok, so say i want to play a C phrygian which its relative minor is F according to your posts. So if I play a G phrygian, I could also play a C minor?

EDIT: Btw, for A major key i could solo over it with a C phrygian right?
My Gear:
Epiphone LP Black Beauty (2007)| Washburn WM24K (2008)| Ibanez Iceman IC300 (2003)| Ibanez GRX40 (2004) w Gold Lace Sensors| Roland Microcube| Marshall G10MK.II Amp| Zoom G2.1u| BOSS Metal Zone

Yes, I am a simple guy.
Last edited by areola at Aug 29, 2007,
#16
Look... i got this system from Vinnie Moore.. at least he explained it that way..
I think you cant play A major scale over C to get the phrygian mode.. i don't know.. now i'm confused too.. lol


you should be able to play it.. but now i looked in guitar pro and notes are not the same


Try to get "Vinnie Moore - Speed, Accuracy, and Articulation.mpg".. he explains modes very well.. and this is the way he explained it.. the easy way
Last edited by zsnopek at Aug 29, 2007,
#17
Quote by areola
ok, so say i want to play a C phrygian which its relative minor is F according to your posts. So if I play a G phrygian, I could also play a C minor?

EDIT: Btw, for A major key i could solo over it with a C phrygian right?



Well I've never heard the term relative minor used like this. Yes, you are correct to say that the G phrygian and C minor scales have the same notes. But you would only use the term relative minor to talk about the minor key a minor third below a major key. That is to say, Em is the relative minor of G. However, you're right that those two scales have the same notes.
"I see my light come shining from the west down to the east
Any day now, any day now I shall be released"

Know any good teachers in NY, especially skilled in teaching ear training? Tell me
#18
ok, whenever i learn a scale i will map it out on the fretboard with appropriate Key. Say i wanna learn the phrygian, i m basically mapping out the major scale of the Key. I tend to sound like playing a major key instead. Should i strictly solo in the phrygian box as starters first to get the feel?
My Gear:
Epiphone LP Black Beauty (2007)| Washburn WM24K (2008)| Ibanez Iceman IC300 (2003)| Ibanez GRX40 (2004) w Gold Lace Sensors| Roland Microcube| Marshall G10MK.II Amp| Zoom G2.1u| BOSS Metal Zone

Yes, I am a simple guy.
#19
It is easier to hear the phrygian sound if you play over a minor7b9 chord, so practice E phrygian over Em7b9. Alternatively play E phrygian and use your bottom E as a drone. Without a chord to define the sound of the mode, the notes C D E F G A B tend to sound like C ionian or A aeolian (I'm not sure why).
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#20
Marmoseti knows what he´s talking about,but you can also use E phrygian to play over Em to F, Em7 to Fmaj7 or E5 to F5 powerchordprogressions
#21
Modes get their sound by the intervals, and the order and emphesis of the intervals played. Of course if you play all the notes of a scale, and the relative modes without playing over the target tonal focus, its all going to sound the same.
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#22
The way I understand modes, is that they are alterations of the major scale. I know that there is merit to acknowledging them as scales in their own right, and under some definitions of a scale it may be correct to do so. The general consensus here on UG is to name modes by their root note and mode type, i.e. "E Phrygian" being E F G A B C D. Whereas the theory that I learned would name it as "C major in the Phrygian mode" or similar.

The naming convention I am accustomed to gives a clearer indication of the source of the scale and the concept of modes in general. In the same way that major and minor pentatonic "scales" are just major and minor scales excluding certain notes, modes are just major scales played from a different scale degree as their root. As has been said in this thread, a mode won't sound very distinct unless played over the right chords and yes, they are very different to the "normal" major scale (i.e. Ionian mode) but treating them as "unique" scales is detracting from their theoretical origin.

Don't get me wrong, I'm talking purely about theory here, in practice it is very useful to apply them as separate scales, and using the names E Phrygian, D Lydian etc is logical too, but don't lose sight of the fact that a mode derives from a major scale, it could aid in your understanding of how to apply them to your playing.

Edit: A bit of revision of my theory led me to learn that these two ways of viewing the modes are called "Relative" and "Parallel". In the same way that looking at G major and then E minor is Relative, C major (Ionian) and E Phrygian are "Relative" and looking at G major and G minor, or C major and C Phrygian is a parallel approach. Learn both for completeness.
Last edited by Doc5678 at Sep 9, 2007,