#1
ok this one is driving me nuts, after learning since I've been loving you by zeppelin I noticed page plays certain notes out of key during his solos that are out of the key but not only do they work, they sound better than notes in the key and really give his solos a unique sound. How the frick do I do this when jamming, is there any way to learn how to play out of key or does it just happen naturally.
#2
No one said that you have to stay in key

You could go out. Things could get pretty same-sounding if you don't venture out of the scale. I think it was Satch who said that he was taught that you could play up to 12 (?) notes out of the scale before people listening think that you are "out". How do you do it when jamming? It really depends on how you want things to sound. Hit an accidental, simply put.
#3
They're called accidentals, and they've been used extensively in Classical music.

I too love Jimmy's use of them, and he sounds really good with them. Don't be afraid to experiment with them, they sound great when used in the right context.
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#5
There are a number of ways to use out-of-key notes in your song. Use them as passing tones, neighboring tones, appoggiatura, escape tones, etc.
#6
I know they're called accidentals and I know plenty of theory, most of the time I'm practicing I work on trying to make it not sound stale, but I don't get how he decides when to play out of key, he doesn't bend them or anything.
#8
Also because he's played enough by ear, that Page doesn't play "in the box". He plays what notes he wants to hear.
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#9
I suppose it goes with playing guitar for so long.

I must say, Steve Howe knows how to use accidents flawlessly.
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#10
does anyone know how much page used to practice per day and for how many years pre zeppelin? I mean, if he practiced like 2 hours a day I'd be a little pissed off because that's how much I do and in comparison to him obviously I am amateur.
#11
Doesn't really matter how long you practice. What matters is how you practice.
#12
Quote by yawn
Doesn't really matter how long you practice. What matters is how you practice.


I know that, however there's no way Steve Vai would be so good if he only practiced 2 hours a day, I heard he'd do 12 hour days multiple days in a row. the thing is I don't like to go by time, I practice when I feel and don't do it as a chore so it doesn't get stale, because if I practice malmsteen licks for more than an hour I won't want to pick up my guitar for a week because it gets boring as ****.
Last edited by farcry at Sep 13, 2007,
#13
^Yup yup (lol).

Also, remember that everyone progresses at different rates. Sorry, but I'm not sure how long he practiced pre-Zep.
#15
Quote by Snowing
I suppose it goes with playing guitar for so long.

I must say, Steve Howe knows how to use accidents flawlessly.



mmm... outside of context I woulda thought you meant something else
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#16
If you would post examples of the chord progressions and what he's playing, I'm sure we could give more concrete answers as to why he's playing certain things.
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#17
Quote by Alex The Red
mmm... outside of context I woulda thought you meant something else

Meant to say accidentals =/
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#18
Quote by psychodelia
If you would post examples of the chord progressions and what he's playing, I'm sure we could give more concrete answers as to why he's playing certain things.


|------------------------|-----------------------------------------|
|------------------------|-------------7-(7)-------7-------7-------|
|-8--8-8-8-8-8-8-8-8-8-8-|-7-7-7-7-7-7---(7)-7---7---7---7---7---7-|
|-8--8-8-8-8-8-8-8-8-8-8-|-7-7-7-7-7-7---(7)---7-------7-------7---|
|-6--6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-6-|-5-5-5-5-5-5----5------------------------|
|------------------------|-----------------------------------------|


the only seventh fret note in key is the d, this is right after.

|------------------|--------------------------------------||
|------------------|--------------------------------------||
|-/5---4---5-------|---5----5b7r(5)------5------5b7r(5)---||
|--------------5---|-4---------------4-3------------------||
|-/6---5---6-------|--------------------------------------||
|--------------6---|-5----5----------5-4----(4)-----------||


the A on the E string and the F# on the D is out, as well other times when he's doing that descending riff he'll play a B on the G string on it's own(haha G string). It seems like he plays these notes out of key when doing ascending and descending phrases. hopefully those parts came out well enough.

and it's like these phrases seem just perfect with the notes in there but they are out of key, not only that, I don't hear these notes and say oh yeah that's out of key, it just fits with the song, but if I'm not playing the exact phrase like in the song and try to play the same notes that aren't in key at different times it sounds horrible, I know it seems kind of obvious, but how does he figure out that these phrases sound good?
Last edited by farcry at Sep 13, 2007,
#19
the out ok key notes usually sound good as passing notes, held a against chords they sound horrible. even some notes in a diatonic scale when held against a chord sound a bit dissonant. like F when held against Cmaj or C7M. so it's just phrasing
#20
Chord tones?
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#21
It's really hard to tell from that tab you posted. key signature, standard
notation and chords also would help.

Perhaps some of the things you mean, actually have a good explanation (theory-wise). It's rock and Zeppelin, I'd be inclined to think there's not a lot of "outside"
notes in there...

I haven't been doing any songs recently and I decided to learn Wes Montgomery's
version of Yesterdays. Talk about out of key stuff! It quite amazing. And I'm not
just talking about passing tones. I haven't completely analyzed it yet, but I
think it's pretty safe to say that a lot of it just works because of the strength of
the phrasing. Until I've actualy worked through a passage (I'm using note-for-note
transcriptions), it sounds like a farily random jumble of notes until I get it more
under my fingers and closer to the actual phrasing. And Yesterdays, is pretty
melodious -- I don't think a jazz player would consider it outside playing by any stretch.
#22
Quote by edg
It's really hard to tell from that tab you posted. key signature, standard
notation and chords also would help.

Perhaps some of the things you mean, actually have a good explanation (theory-wise). It's rock and Zeppelin, I'd be inclined to think there's not a lot of "outside"
notes in there...

I haven't been doing any songs recently and I decided to learn Wes Montgomery's
version of Yesterdays. Talk about out of key stuff! It quite amazing. And I'm not
just talking about passing tones. I haven't completely analyzed it yet, but I
think it's pretty safe to say that a lot of it just works because of the strength of
the phrasing. Until I've actualy worked through a passage (I'm using note-for-note
transcriptions), it sounds like a farily random jumble of notes until I get it more
under my fingers and closer to the actual phrasing. And Yesterdays, is pretty
melodious -- I don't think a jazz player would consider it outside playing by any stretch.


Art Tatum's version of Yesterdays on Piano Starts Here is amazing too.
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#23
Quote by farcry


|------------------|--------------------------------------||
|------------------|--------------------------------------||
|-/5---4---5-------|---5----5b7r(5)------5------5b7r(5)---||
|--------------5---|-4---------------4-3------------------||
|-/6---5---6-------|--------------------------------------||
|--------------6---|-5----5----------5-4----(4)-----------||


This part makes sense if you consider the chords he's implying.

Since I've Been Loving You is a drawn-out blues in Cm, and this is the turnaround, as they prepare for a new verse. The first measure, you have the chords Cm, G, Cm, and Eb as quarter notes when you take the bass into account. In Cm, the only one of these chords that isn't diatonic is G, but G is the V of Cm, and thus provides a strong resolution to Cm, so it shouldn't come as much of a surprise.

The next phrase only has two chords, which each last half of the measure. The first is D7, and the second is Dbma7. Neither of these are diatonic to Cm, but a little fancy theory (fancy, at least, from a rock perspective) can explain this. The D7 is a secondary dominant of G, which means it resolves well to G. This would be good, since G, in turn, resolves well to Cm, so we could transition smoothly into the next verse.

However, we may be surprised to see that the next chord is not G, but Dbma7. This is a tweaking of tritone substitution; the technique of replacing a dominant chord with another dominant chord a tritone away. In our case, it is not a dominant, though, but a maj7, but we still get the effect of the Db resolving to C, the Ab resolving to G, and the F resolving to Eb.

If any of that confused you (and it was a very confusing explanation ) just ask. We do have threads lying around that ask about tritone substitution, like this one: https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=527901&highlight=tritone read john's post.


Note that these ideas are pre-written, and the whole band is following the changes. If Page played that last lick over a Cm chord, it probably wouldn't sound great, but since D7 to Dbma7 is what the whole band is doing, it fits in perfectly.


During the soloing (phew!) he doesn't actually get too far outside. For the most part, he uses C Aeolian and C blues. Over the Fm, he might mix F Dorian and F Aeolian, and might play G Dorian over the G minor. Besides that, the D7 and Dbma7 is the only really outside part, and he just does a few bends up to D and Db there.
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#25
I still think you have a ways to go on theory. Accidentals are widely used in rock. Especially blues influenced rock.

A few situations that you would want to compose or play them are if you're implying a borrowed chord(see modal interchange), if you want to build suspension, as passing tones to elongate the basic structure of a solo/riff... I dunno, there are quite a few reasons explained by theory to use accidentals.

Try playing a major progression and then playing the minor pentatonic over it. That uses the b3 and b7 accidentals. Blue notes. You can do this in many ways.

Improvise a solo combining the major scale and parallel lydian scale. All of the accidental notes will give a different feel.