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#1
OK, what i'm about to say is the product of a conversation held late at night, so it may not make much sense. It's complicated, and it's hard to explain, so i'm not going to worry too much about spelling and grammar cos it'll take way too long. You have been warned, enjoy

OK, so how do we know what is real? Well we need to define real first.
Is something only real if you can touch it? That would mean Air isn't real.
Is something only real if it can be proven with science? That would mean that God isn't real by current science. (don't go into whether God exists or not, go under the assumption, that IF he exists, he exists whether he can be proven by science or not, for the sake of argument)

So reality isn't defined by what we can sense, or what we can prove with science. However you'll probably say, well you said "only real", but something is real if you can touch it sureley, it just doesnt need to be touchable to be real. Not necessarily. If i say, hey i can touch this chair, it must be real, am i right? There are so many other possibilities. I'm hallucinating, the chair is mereley an illusion projected onto a solid object, I have an illness that causes me to percieve objects differently and thus i may be touching a table. Even more complicated, just cos "I" can touch this chair, doesnt mean its real. How can you know anything "I" say is real?

Sureley, you have no proof that there is someone writing this, it could be a freak glitch in the internet, thus how can you trust it? Also if you were next to me when i was touching the chair saying, "this exists," how do you know that i am not mereley a hallucination to you? I could be a figment of your imagination that you only think is telling you the chair exists.

So what you can percieve around you may not be real, and what is told to you may not be real. Then theres science itself. You can work things out in science to see if your perceptions are right, right? Not really. All of science is based on other science. Something is only right if the science before it is right, however, how do we know that's right? Gravity was discovered because people looked at the universe around them and looked at how it worked. Thats one of the things that doesnt rely on other science, but it relies on perception, so if the perception was wrong, all science that relies on the law of gravity is wrong. And as i've alreaddy explained perception may be wrong.

So your own perception doesnt prove somethings existance, other people's perception doesn't prove existance, and nor does science. What about maths though?
Many great philosophers trusted that if something can be rationalized within your own head, it must be perfect truth. For example, 2+2=4. That's right, it will always be right, and it is right no matter what. Or is it?
Sureley that is only right within our universe, or more wideley, our reality, how do we know that our reality, or rather, how we percieve, know and can rationalize our reality, is correct? We are people, we have minds, minds are imperfect. Our view and "knowledge" of reality may well be wrong. 2+2 in the "true reality": reality how it should be, could well be 7 or could even be a mathematical impossibility. Does 2 even exist?

So sureley by all this logic, there isn't any certainty in anything right? Things are only certain if you say, "within our reality" or "from what we can percieve".
So there we go, nothing is certain beyond doubt.

Thanks if you read all that, let me know what you think.
#3
Shutup and just believe what they tell you in school.

EDIT : 2 + 2 is 4, just so you know.
#4
your thinking about it aren't you - therefore you know that you exist. you can't technically prove anything other than yourself. in cogito by descartes.
#5
wall of text = bad. but going on what i got from that, don't delve in to such matters because there are no answers to be found.

humans exist, i am human, therefore i exist. end of.
"And after all of this, I am amazed...

...that I am cursed far more than I am praised."
#6
ok...

*waits for someone to post the "lol wut?" picture*

If a tree in the woods falls, but nobody is around to hear it. Does it make a sound?

Its just like that. you'll eventually spin into a series of questions that are just mind boggling.

I have no idea who said this but "Ignorance is bliss."
#8
go do AS philosophy then come back. it's mostly about how you can know things (knowing something is knowing that it is real, whereas believing something means it is dubitable).

there's the principle of verification which states that if someone, at some point, somewhere knows something to be true, then it is, and there's descartes' rule for truth which escapes my mind at the moment as i haven't done philosophy in a year or two.

there's loads of crap about it. try reading descartes meditations (but only if you have insane powers of concentration, the guy is a prick and writes incredibly boring stuff), or getting a little book called the theory of knowledge, i can't remember who it's by, but it's all about epistemology.

enjoy.
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#9
Quote by Griff_Kid
ok...

*waits for someone to post the "lol wut?" picture*

If a tree in the woods falls, but nobody is around to hear it. Does it make a sound?

Its just like that. you'll eventually spin into a series of questions that are just mind boggling.

I have no idea who said this but "Ignorance is bliss."
#10
Quote by Magic Jim


OK, so how do we know what is real? Well we need to define real first.
Is something only real if you can touch it? That would mean Air isn't real.





I read only 'till here. If we can't touch air, then wth is wind, eh?
<Omri> I love trannys too..
#12
Quote by esther_mouse
go do AS philosophy then come back. it's mostly about how you can know things (knowing something is knowing that it is real, whereas believing something means it is dubitable).

there's the principle of verification which states that if someone, at some point, somewhere knows something to be true, then it is, and there's descartes' rule for truth which escapes my mind at the moment as i haven't done philosophy in a year or two.

there's loads of crap about it. try reading descartes meditations (but only if you have insane powers of concentration, the guy is a prick and writes incredibly boring stuff), or getting a little book called the theory of knowledge, i can't remember who it's by, but it's all about epistemology.

enjoy.


yeah, i am starting A2 this year. deep stuff
#13
yea thats basically a summary of plato's teachings, but still intriguing
fun read
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#14
Quote by Griff_Kid
If a tree in the woods falls, but nobody is around to hear it. Does it make a sound?


Yes (unless they put a big mattress underneath it to cushion the fall).
#15
Theres actually a philosophers thread... Its called Socrates Cafe, I post there, post this there and people will talk about it sensibly with you
#16
if something is a particle or a wave (depending on how you define things) it is real

pretty basic anaylsis i know, but it's a saturday night
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#17
Quote by fender_696
yeah, i am starting A2 this year. deep stuff



i quit at the end of A2, 'cause i had so much stuff going on in the rest of my life that i couldn't face a huge old synoptic study and a load of boring exams as well, lol. but year 2 is better than year 1, if you're doing david hume for your text, because he actually knows what he's on about, unlike descartes, who imho is a stupid tosser.
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#18
2 + 2 is 4, just so you know.


2+2=5 is also a very fine thing (Points for who gets the reference).

Yeah, it's all quite possible.
Quote by aaron13
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most of them want to see me naked.. and they are over 18..
#19
Thanks for your replies, tbh, thanks for even reading it
Couple of things,
first
If a tree in the woods falls, but nobody is around to hear it. Does it make a sound?
if you define sound scientifically as the vibrations in the air that cause us to hear things, then yes. Other than that, i agree, no point arguing about it.

second, im doing AS level philosophy partially influenced after i thought of all this, i just did platos theory of the cave, good stuff

third, i'd just like to ask, why does it matter if im thinking this? im not trying to say theres no point knowing things, we live in our reality and by our perceptions, so im fine living by what ive been told is right, i just think its fun to think about and to talk about.
#20
Quote by Hobolad
2+2=5 is also a very fine thing (Points for who gets the reference).

Yeah, it's all quite possible.


The Lukewarm?
#21
I reckon, if it's real to us- then who cares if it is or ain't? It's as good as real, y'know?

EDIT:
The Lukewarm?


I'm afraid not (it wasn't what I was thinking of anyway).
Quote by aaron13
well i get on the net and chat with hot chicks alot.
most of them want to see me naked.. and they are over 18..
#22
there was some 11 year old on this channel 4 program that had an IQ of like 180 or something and he was really into philosophy and questioning absolutely everything around him. to keep him sane, his parents have him talk to the head of philosophy at oxford university. maybe you should talk to him someday....

also, i was gonna do maths and philosophy at uni, but then i thought it'd be better if i didn't get any more wierd ideas.
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...that I am cursed far more than I am praised."
#23
urm.......what?
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#24
Why is a full stop a circle? Circle's are ever going, thus contradicting the full "stop".

#26
just to clear it up: no one knows jack **** about anything. leave it at that
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#27
Think about this:

An atom is mainly made up of nothing. So really, everything is mostly made up of nothing. THe only reason we can touch, feel, taste, is because we too, are mostly made of nothing.

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#28
I think I know now what I will wish myself from Santa Clause =) I wish myself that people who don't anything about science, or not much stop writing wrong thoughts and beliefs about it. I wouldn't call myself yet a scientist, I still have to learn too much, but I know already some basics, have read some books. You too could do that, there are even so called "popular-scientific" books for people who can't understand the mathematical work of a theory. In fact Science doesn't limitate itself to things you can touch like you said, there are theories which deal about other dimensions than our ( I won't go in deepth now because I know too little about it and don't want to tell you anything wrong ). I think reading those books could also be fun for you because they give you a nex perception of our world, for example I was amazed when I learned Einsteins relativity theory, his thoughts and conclusions were amazing. If you are interested in my reply and want to know more about science, or "funny" things scientifics found out don't hesitate to PM me, I'll tell you the titles of some interesting books, send you ebooks ; ) P.S. I made up my own philosophy,a philosophy which saves myself from wasting time thinking on such things, its first principle is that physical laws are the same for every place in our dimension ; ), ciao, and don't laugh on me for spelling/grammar mistakes, I'm not a native
#29
Aldous Huxley the Doors of Perception anyone?

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#30
im doing maths, further maths, and physics, (as well as philosophy and ethics)
i agree, laws of physics work everywhere in our dimension. but what im saying is that that statement is only true cos of our perception of our dimension and reality. we may percieve it wrongly
#31
Quote by Hobolad
2+2=5 is also a very fine thing (Points for who gets the reference).

Yeah, it's all quite possible.

El head de la radio?
#32
El head de la radio?


Nah. Notes from Underground! It's a classic people!

Philosophy is interesting to discuss (or at least to read you guy's discussing it), so I guess it doesn't matter what the outcome, or whether it matters- 'cause it gets you thinking about stuff, so philosophy's cool. If you get my meaning.
Quote by aaron13
well i get on the net and chat with hot chicks alot.
most of them want to see me naked.. and they are over 18..
#33
Damn science ruined the world.

Ok is brought medicine and wonderous Technology, but its totally killed the wonder of the world.

2000 years ago the world was flat. Angels and god lived in the sky. If you sailed to far you'd fall off the edge of the world. There wasn't really a population problem. If you had to go somewere you'd have to walk/sail/ride a horse. Ya know what i'm tryin to say. It just seemed so much more interesting. But i suppose it was all for the best. We're sorta crossing over from the swap to the stars. Just its taking a while... oh well...
#34
2000 years ago the world was flat. Angels and god lived in the sky. If you sailed to far you'd fall off the edge of the world. There wasn't really a population problem. If you had to go somewere you'd have to walk/sail/ride a horse. Ya know what i'm tryin to say. It just seemed so much more interesting. But i suppose it was all for the best. We're sorta crossing over from the swap to the stars. Just its taking a while... oh well...


And then for a bit science made us believe in Frankenstein monsters and potions and Lovecraftian horribleness (Not to mention the possibility of eternal life). Now we know it's not that romantic lots of people are going back to "spirituality" for their eternal life (heaven and whatnot).

That's what I reckon.
Quote by aaron13
well i get on the net and chat with hot chicks alot.
most of them want to see me naked.. and they are over 18..
#35
Quote by Hobolad
2+2=5 is also a very fine thing (Points for who gets the reference).

Yeah, it's all quite possible.


radiohead! points please

on topic: everything you say is interesting and may be right except for the maths. 2lots of 2 things will always make double the number of things. eg

7+7=14

whatever you call it, you still double the original number
#36
Quote by skagitup
Why is a full stop a circle? Circle's are ever going, thus contradicting the full "stop".


on a computer they're not.
the reason theyre generaly a circle is due to the nib of a pen / pencil when writting. simply making it easier to dot the page for a full stop rather than create a lil square just to keep your theory happy..
#37
a=b
multiply both sides by a
a^2=ab
add (a^2-2ab) to both sides
2a^2-2ab=a^2-ab
factorise
2(a^2-ab)=(a^2-ab)

2 = 1 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


dw kids it's not real, whilst there is no algebraic flaw, there is still a mistake
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#38
i'd say that real is
something you can meet
something you can make (on paper)
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#39
You should read up on Des Cartes stuff, he writes about this kind of thing and it's vaguely interesting.

Anyway, to throw in my opinion, I think you can only believe that you are or anything else is real. You can never 100% know and probably the reason for that is because how can you prove it? How can you prove to someone that they are and you are real? Is the proof real? Can you prove that? Etc.

Thinking about this kind of thing will hurt your brain.
'If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch you must first invent the Universe' - Carl Sagan.
#40
Quote by Griff_Kid
Damn science ruined the world.

Ok is brought medicine and wonderous Technology, but its totally killed the wonder of the world.

2000 years ago the world was flat. Angels and god lived in the sky. If you sailed to far you'd fall off the edge of the world. There wasn't really a population problem. If you had to go somewere you'd have to walk/sail/ride a horse. Ya know what i'm tryin to say. It just seemed so much more interesting. But i suppose it was all for the best. We're sorta crossing over from the swap to the stars. Just its taking a while... oh well...


Obviously you didnt see Pirates 3, cause Depp proved in that movie that you can still sail off the edge of the world.
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