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#1
Sorry I dont actually have a skill gauge thingy BUT!

One of my old friends used to shred like a demon when he was around 16, after I asked how good he really was he said that there was this sort of measurement....the max was 20 and he was 19...apparently it was physically impossible to get past 19.5 or something. I was very drunk at the time and I don't remember what it was he said that night but does ANYONE know what this is? Does it ring a bell with anyone?
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#2
He was probably talking about notes per second. I don't believe it's physically impossible to get above 20, and I don't believe he managed 19.5
#5
er..excuse my question,but thats through tapping passages,right??
i cant possibly think of anyone who can do a speedpicking run of 20 notes per second,or perhaps legato?
#6
Quote by Crazy B
Sorry I dont actually have a skill gauge thingy BUT!

One of my old friends used to shred like a demon when he was around 16, after I asked how good he really was he said that there was this sort of measurement....the max was 20 and he was 19...apparently it was physically impossible to get past 19.5 or something. I was very drunk at the time and I don't remember what it was he said that night but does ANYONE know what this is? Does it ring a bell with anyone?



He was gauging his SPEED.

Skill on the guitar involves alot more than how many notes you can play in a second.
#9
You claim to sweep pick 32nd notes at 160 BPM (which I don't believe, by the way). Let's do some math here.
32 is half the length of a 16th note is half the length of an 8th note is half the length of a quarter note. Therefore 32nd notes at 160 BPM are equivelant to quarter notes at 1280 BPM (this is why I don't believe you). To convert 1280 beats per minute into beats per second we divide by 60. That gives you a speed of 21.(3) notes per second. So, at the very least, your math is consistant. But I don't believe you.

Speed is a tiny factor in skill. You could be the fastest player in the world but you couldn't play for **** then what the hell's it matter?
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#10
Quote by GuitarMunky
He was gauging his SPEED.

Skill on the guitar involves alot more than how many notes you can play in a second.


Yeah....
#11
Quote by GuitarMunky
Skill on the guitar involves alot more than how many notes you can play in a second.
speed=accuracy=good technique

People with a double guitar could easily get 30bps (beats per second). I only know when I get past fifteen because the notes start sounding jointed.
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[U]     | \|_ |     |     .-|      [/U]
      *-|-*    (_)     `-’
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#12
Quote by Me2NiK
You claim to sweep pick 32nd notes at 160 BPM (which I don't believe, by the way). Let's do some math here.
32 is half the length of a 16th note is half the length of an 8th note is half the length of a quarter note. Therefore 32nd notes at 160 BPM are equivelant to quarter notes at 1280 BPM (this is why I don't believe you). To convert 1280 beats per minute into beats per second we divide by 60. That gives you a speed of 21.(3) notes per second. So, at the very least, your math is consistant. But I don't believe you.

Speed is a tiny factor in skill. You could be the fastest player in the world but you couldn't play for **** then what the hell's it matter?



But to get fast you have to understand the guitar, whether you use your guitar knowledge in your playing or not is up to you, but I highly doubt there are people that play fast without knowing how to play the guitar.

I don't know why you don't believe me, as there are people that are tons faster. Go to www.youtube.com/insideac and find the video called 32nd notes at 160 or something, its my newest one
#13
If it's this video, it sounds like you're playing without an amp. Could you do one with an amp? That would make it a lot clearer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjVeJZKcAQ0

To the TS, really the number of notes per second is irrelevant, you wouldn't rate a painting on number of colours per square inch would you?
Quote by VR2005
Very good post Marmoseti, you're on the right track.



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#14
Quote by marmoseti
If it's this video, it sounds like you're playing without an amp. Could you do one with an amp? That would make it a lot clearer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjVeJZKcAQ0

To the TS, really the number of notes per second is irrelevant, you wouldn't rate a painting on number of colours per square inch would you?



good point !

Another interesting point..or question........ Why is it that only guitar players, are so concerned with this stat? I dont think I've ever heard a pianist, or horn player brag about their NPS. ( I suppose they could, but I 've never encountered it). Guitarists.... well shredders, and shredder wannabees are especially obsessed with it.
Playing fast is great.... I just think that when people treat it like a sport, and confuse speed with skill.... they are really missing out on the whole picture, and in many cases, they end up trading substance for speed, and art for sport.


Regarding that video.... yeah I cant hear a single note.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Sep 22, 2007,
#15
Quote by demonofthenight
speed=accuracy=good technique


Not necesarrily. Skill... involves alot more than playing fast. alot of people dont get that, which is why some people can play really fast and still sound like crap.
#16
Ill eventually make a video with my amp on. And speed SHOULD come as a result of skill.

Just because Kurt Cobain could make songs doesn't mean he had skill.

Skill = mastery over something

A lot of skill : mastery over guitar, including speed aspects. Most people who are really good at guitar, even if you never heard them play fast, can most likely play fast.


And turn up your volume, I can hear myself just fine
Last edited by insideac at Sep 22, 2007,
#17
Skill - "The ability to perform a task or activity consistently over a period of time. The expertise required for a particular task or occupation which may include manual dexterity and/or mental aptitude."

Playing fast isn't hard, making it sound good and mis, and also making it fit in. Most of the time imo it seems that quick runs are overused and are all about going "Look, look I can do 900000000 nps, how good am I?". There is a time and a place for it and its not all the time. People who have good technique and play really fast often lose the bigger picture and how it sounds as a whole, for example in the G3 version of Little Wing, the solos don't fit the piece. The real skill is knowing when to do something not only having the ability to do it.
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#18
When used properly, the point of scale runs is to add decoration notes to connect one phrase to another, NOT to make full songs out of scalar runs
#19
Quote by insideac
When used properly, the point of scale runs is to add decoration notes to connect one phrase to another, NOT to make full songs out of scalar runs



Yes I agree, but even the guitarists that are considered amongst the best still forget this from time to time, and you must agree that scale runs won't fit in every situation.
Founder of Jaco society

[22:08:23] <Confusius> I wish I was a bassist
[22:08:26] <Confusius> you fuckers look cool


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#20
Quote by insideac
Ill eventually make a video with my amp on. And speed SHOULD come as a result of skill.

Just because Kurt Cobain could make songs doesn't mean he had skill.

Skill = mastery over something

A lot of skill : mastery over guitar, including speed aspects. Most people who are really good at guitar, even if you never heard them play fast, can most likely play fast.


And turn up your volume, I can hear myself just fine
Like I said, alot of people just dont get it.

making the guitar sound good is a skill
writing a song is a skill
Playing fast scale runs or arpeggios.... are skills
playing slow is actually a skill as well
rythem playing is a skill
finger picking is a skill
being able to figure something out by ear is a skill
and so on.........


There are alot of different skills that guitarists can have, and alot of different levels of skill.

Many people that are good at guitar can play fast.... but thats not necesarrily what makes them good. The Idea that your only good if you can play fast, is foolish, and quite juvenile / immature. A good example would be David Gilmour, a fantastic guitarist that does not often play fast. He surely cant play 32nd notes at 160 bpm. Regardless of this, he is an excellent guitarist that has plently of skill.

Speed is an aspect of playing that alot of people like, but it alone does not define what "good" is.
Not playing fast does not show a lack of skill. (sounding like crap does though)
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Sep 22, 2007,
#21
Quote by sinan90
Skill - "The ability to perform a task or activity consistently over a period of time. The expertise required for a particular task or occupation which may include manual dexterity and/or mental aptitude."

Playing fast isn't hard, making it sound good and mis, and also making it fit in. Most of the time imo it seems that quick runs are overused and are all about going "Look, look I can do 900000000 nps, how good am I?". There is a time and a place for it and its not all the time. People who have good technique and play really fast often lose the bigger picture and how it sounds as a whole, for example in the G3 version of Little Wing, the solos don't fit the piece. The real skill is knowing when to do something not only having the ability to do it.

Well said.

another point:
Alot of people use speed as a crutch, to make up for their otherwise lack of musicality.
Rather than think of anything, they can just rip through some fast scales and arpeggios, knowing that alot of people are impressed with that alone. So in some cases playing fast can actually show a lack of skill.


that being said, some shredders have both speed and musicallity.
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Sep 22, 2007,
#22
-These threads have an incredible ability to reincarnate.

Music is all about preference and I can't imagine a victor in this argument.
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#23
Quote by Der Bomber
-These threads have an incredible ability to reincarnate.

Music is all about preference and I can't imagine a victor in this argument.


I agree, except Im not arguing about preference, just the idea that speed is not the only factor for determining "skill" on the guitar.

This isnt about fast vs not fast or anything of that nature. its about defining what constitutes "skills".
#24
i remember in the "fastest guitarist update thread" wasnt fareri or w/e like 32nps at one sweep picking part
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#25
Quote by GuitarMunky
I agree, except Im not arguing about preference, just the idea that speed is not the only factor for determining "skill" on the guitar.

This isnt about fast vs not fast or anything of that nature. its about defining what constitutes "skills".


-I am fully aware of what this argument withholds but I admit, I may have been too abstract; maybe as abstract as the subject we're referring to (skills in guitar-playing).

A musician that has mastered their instrument is considered virtuoso by some, while those who aren't is in a gray-zone of preference.
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#26
Quote by C.C. Deville
i remember in the "fastest guitarist update thread" wasnt fareri or w/e like 32nps at one sweep picking part

yea that thread all the speeds, i think 26 nps was the max, and to that guy that says he can do 21 nps...... i didn't even hear any shredding on your songs. is there?
#27
Quote by Metallica rulz
yea that thread all the speeds, i think 26 nps was the max, and to that guy that says he can do 21 nps...... i didn't even hear any shredding on your songs. is there?



No, which is my point exactly. I dont shred if its not needed, I just like to be fast because it means I can play whatever I have in my head.

Theres a big difference between using the guitar to play fast, and playing fast to use the guitar, if you understand what I mean.

Out of 9 songs I have written, only 2 of them use sweeps, and only 1 of them uses sweeps that are remotely fast.
#28
Quote by GuitarMunky
good point !

Another interesting point..or question........ Why is it that only guitar players, are so concerned with this stat? I dont think I've ever heard a pianist, or horn player brag about their NPS.


I think it's because of the way people learn their instruments. It is often the case that guitarists teach themselves by playing pieces which get progressively more technically difficult, and don't perform live very much (or ever, I'm sure a lot of the people on here don't play live). In that mindset, you improve by playing faster pieces, so someone playing really fast has improved way more than you, so they are better.

Other instrument players seem to play more real life music from earlier on (there's lots of school orchestras and bands to join), and so are rarely performing the most tehnical thing they know. It becomes very quickly about how it sounds, not how technical it is. It is also true that very few non guitar pieces are written solely to be really fast/technical (studies and cadenzas aside), whereas being honest many metal solos are merely a chance to show off technique (whether they sound good is subjective).

I think everyone acknowledges that there is no "fast vs. slow" debate. What I think is important to realise is that there are many skills needed to be a musician. I consider the skills you could carry across to another instrument to be 'musician skills' (song writing, theory, reading, improvising, rhythm, phrasing etc). All the other stuff guitarists talk about (sweeping, tapping, alt. picking etc) is just technique, and ultimately exists only to allow you to put the musician skills into practice.
Quote by VR2005
Very good post Marmoseti, you're on the right track.



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Last edited by marmoseti at Sep 22, 2007,
#29
Quote by insideac
No, which is my point exactly. I dont shred if its not needed, I just like to be fast because it means I can play whatever I have in my head.



Thats exactly what im talking about. you have a misconception that playing fast means you can play anything. Playing fast does not mean you can play anything.
Michael Hedges never played anything incredibly fast.... does your status as a fast player enable you to instantly play one of his pieces? If so please post a vid.

If you had said you play fast becuase you enjoy it, or because you want everyone to be impressed.... I could respect that. At least theres no BS there.
#30
You forgot the part where I said "I can play anything in my head". That piece is not, and never will be in my head, nor will I care to try it, as its not something I would enjoy.

What I hear in my head, so far, I am capable of playing, which is why I wanted to gain speed in the first place, because if I want to play death metal but can't play fast, then I fail as a musician because I am unable to play what I want to play, due to lack of skill that I KNOW I need, for what I want to do.
#31
Quote by insideac
You forgot the part where I said "I can play anything in my head". That piece is not, and never will be in my head, nor will I care to try it, as its not something I would enjoy.

What I hear in my head, so far, I am capable of playing, which is why I wanted to gain speed in the first place, because if I want to play death metal but can't play fast, then I fail as a musician because I am unable to play what I want to play, due to lack of skill that I KNOW I need, for what I want to do.


So the skill of playing fast scales and arpeggios is important to playing the kind of music you like. I' ll buy that.

BTW, have you ever listened to Michael Hedges? If not, do yourself a favor and check this out, you may actually enjoy it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTC7kPZZmuM

this guy shows incredible skills, yet nothing is played fast enough to warrent a NPS evaluation.
#32
Quote by insideac
Ill eventually make a video with my amp on. And speed SHOULD come as a result of skill.

Just because Kurt Cobain could make songs doesn't mean he had skill.

Skill = mastery over something

A lot of skill : mastery over guitar, including speed aspects. Most people who are really good at guitar, even if you never heard them play fast, can most likely play fast.


And turn up your volume, I can hear myself just fine

Bull he didn't have skill. Of course he did. Making music is a skill and an art, one that Cobain had in large shares.

I equate the ability to play the guitar fast to the ability to paint fast. On its own it's absolutely useless.
People writing songs that voices never shared
No one dared
Disturb the Sound of Silence
#33
thats bull****, if playing fast doesnt matter then hand me some satch riffs and il play em slowed down tenfold...how would you like that. speed matters so much. if i take lets say.... the solo to stairway to heaven. and i slow it down to the point where the it takes 3x the time to play it, would it still sound good? i know its stupid but when you say speed means nothing that is not true, it always means something.
#34
No he didn't say speed was useless, he said the ability to pay fast is useless on its own.
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[22:08:23] <Confusius> I wish I was a bassist
[22:08:26] <Confusius> you fuckers look cool


Want to know how to play bass in jazz? Read this.
#35
The painting analogy didn't contribute anything, though, unless we consider the act of painting to be a part of the art form.
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#37
Quote by insideac
You forgot the part where I said "I can play anything in my head". That piece is not, and never will be in my head, nor will I care to try it, as its not something I would enjoy.

What I hear in my head, so far, I am capable of playing, which is why I wanted to gain speed in the first place, because if I want to play death metal but can't play fast, then I fail as a musician because I am unable to play what I want to play, due to lack of skill that I KNOW I need, for what I want to do.

I completely get what you mean by that. I've been really working on speed a lot lately so that I could do the same. That and because I heard a story nad I liked the idea behind it (I'll post it in a minute). The problem is technique; that takes a little while to build. I can play fairly fast, but it's also fairly sloppy. Not too bad, in my opinion, but it's still far from perfect.

Anyway, this story I heard was about a local guy named Gary Miles. He was auditioning for a band, and he was playing pedal steel. His pedal steel broke, and the guitarist who was already in the band was saying **** and trying to show him up. So he said to this guy, "Look, my pedal steel is broken and I won't be able to use it for a few days, but if you let me play one of your guitars, maybe you'd let me join the band as a guitarist?" So the band let him try that... And the other guitarist was trying to show him up, but no matter what he did, this Gary guy would just go a little bit above what he did, and the point is he was so talented, but was modest with his talent. If you were being an ass, he'd bring you back down, but wouldn't just go out showing off with it. That's what I'd like to be able to do, have the ability to play whatever I want, but play it where it's appropriate, and not just because I can.
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#38
Quote by Crazy B
Sorry I dont actually have a skill gauge thingy BUT!

One of my old friends used to shred like a demon when he was around 16, after I asked how good he really was he said that there was this sort of measurement....the max was 20 and he was 19...apparently it was physically impossible to get past 19.5 or something. I was very drunk at the time and I don't remember what it was he said that night but does ANYONE know what this is? Does it ring a bell with anyone?



You say you were drunk? I'd say he probably was too...
Quote by death_metaller
**** burzum XD

there i said it...kinda

edit: i do realise they are not here...so i kinda didnt say it...




fail
#39
Quote by Metallica rulz
thats bull****, if playing fast doesnt matter then hand me some satch riffs and il play em slowed down tenfold...how would you like that. speed matters so much. if i take lets say.... the solo to stairway to heaven. and i slow it down to the point where the it takes 3x the time to play it, would it still sound good? i know its stupid but when you say speed means nothing that is not true, it always means something.


Yeah, just like some things that are played slow would sound **** speed up, so your point is rather bull****.
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#40
Quote by Metallica rulz
playing fast lets is speed....isnt it? kinda redundant lol .



You obviously didn't understand what I said, it's not playing fast is useless, it's the ability to play fast ON ITS OWN that is useless.
Founder of Jaco society

[22:08:23] <Confusius> I wish I was a bassist
[22:08:26] <Confusius> you fuckers look cool


Want to know how to play bass in jazz? Read this.
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