#1
i knew a question like that would get your attention. plz dont flame me about this, this may be in the wrong forum but i dont think so.

i have started this thread to discuss and possibly clarify to everyone what metal really is. there are over a dozen classifications of metal now. a new one gets created like every couple years. and now there is gay **** where where metal and hardcore combine to make metalcore? what the hell.. what happened to simple terms of just ordinary metal. its ridiculous. are all these bands really that different that they deserve to be labeled as so many separate genres? i dont really even know if even I quite understand what metal truely is. i think the first bands to get the term 'metal' popular were black sabbath, iron maiden and possibly even AC/DC (at least back then) i think sometimes van halen has fallen into this category.

now, these are all great bands but i always kind of thought metal was just a really heavy form of rock. and there are bands a lot heavier than sabbath that get flamed if the word metal is even used in the same thread as them. for example, disturbed. they have heavy, fast riffs and brutal vocals, but they also go into softer vocals sometimes. but people refuse to call them metal; but metallica does the same thing and even has some slow, soft songs and they are practically the definition of metal.

what classifies metal as metal. how do some bands get the title of metal and others that i find similar get labeled as hard rock or "nu-metal"? so what im trying to say is, what is metal?
#2
I think these quotes might help..

"One word frees us of all the weight and pain of life: That word is metal." - Sophocles

"Attention is the most basic form of metal; through it we bless and are blessed." - John Tarrant

"Metal is like quicksilver in the hand. Leave the fingers open and it stays. Clutch it, and it darts away." - Dorothy Parker

"Metal is an ideal thing, marriage a real thing." - Goethe

"To be in metal is merely to be in a state of perceptual anesthesia." - H.L. Mencken

"Metal is everything it's cracked up to be. That's why people are so cynical about it...It really is worth fighting for, risking everything for. And the trouble is, if you don't risk everything, you risk even more." - Erica Jong

"Metal has no awareness of merit or demerit; it has no scale... metal metals; this is its nature." - Howard Thurman
#3
I understand somewhat what you're trying to say, but metal is a complicated thing. It evolves and changes but doesn't loose some basic characteristics, some of them are easy to define and some of them are not. O and I'm pretty sure Disturbed don't have "brutal" vocals.
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#4
I hear you, CFH5. There are just too many subgenres for metal these days and as of late the new wave of american heavy metal, which to me is just a mix of death, thrash and nu-metal. Bottom line is it's all metal. The records stores don't subgenre metal, they lump it all into the "Metal" section...if I had to go to a record store and sift through a thousand different genres just to find a few cd's I go f*ckin crazy! People are too quick to label something when it sounds different from the last big thing.
#5
stop listening to mainstream ****.

check out ensiferum, mayhem, and candlemass
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#6
lol cliff, i actually made posted in recommendatios thread to try to find new music to listen to other than mainstream. stuff like pantera and metallica so guess i will check into those. and cooper, brutal is probly a strong word for disturbed's vocals, i just typed what first came to mind but they definitely arent soft. even a little harder than some bands that are considered metal. thats where i get a little confused.
Last edited by CowboyFromHell5 at Sep 19, 2007,
#7
most metalcore vocals are harder than most metal bands but it doesnt mean theyre metal. hardcore vocals are harsh, just not metal
#8
God damn it...

Subgenres are important, and very much relevant, and not confusing at all if you just took the time to actually think about it, instead of jumping ahead and going "omgZ der iz too moch sobjanrz".

There is practically nothing in common between Iron Maiden, Cannibal Corpse, Woods of Ypres, Meshuggah and unexpecT, yet they are all metal bands. Because this genre of music is so diverse, different bands need different genres, for the sake of keeping it in order.
While there are lots of useless categories, they are used so rarely, no one cares. And no, it doesn't matter that "iT al wuz jus callde MeTlle in teh 80's".

If you can't make out what is metal and what isn't by yourself, maybe you should go listen to it a little more.
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#9
Dead-fish, I understand that there may be a need for some of the subgenres, and I'm quite aware of the differences between bands like Iron Maiden and Cannibal Corpse, but in the past 15 years we have added so many more genres to the list it's getting out of control. The biggest problem is that some people are ignorant enough not to like one band because they don't like another band in that subgenre and they miss out on some really good music.
And about the whole "Taking the time to think about it". Its a waste of time, people (like yourself) spend far too much time thinking about it and not enough time enjoying it and dissecting everything about a band to define them as such a genre so they can put them into a category for their I-pods. There are just too many out there these days and theres always someone wating in the wing to label the next band that sounds slightly different than the last... god damn it!
#10
Quote by WeR138
Dead-fish, I understand that there may be a need for some of the subgenres, and I'm quite aware of the differences between bands like Iron Maiden and Cannibal Corpse, but in the past 15 years we have added so many more genres to the list it's getting out of control.


No, you just didn't take the time to look into it. For god's sake, go to the metal rec thread. Is it really that confusing?

And about the whole "Taking the time to think about it". Its a waste of time,


Well, there's your problem! Why don't you actually take the time to think about it?
Because

people (like yourself) spend far too much time thinking about it and not enough time enjoying it and dissecting everything about a band to define them as such a genre so they can put them into a category for their I-pods. There are just too many out there these days and theres always someone wating in the wing to label the next band that sounds slightly different than the last... god damn it!


Ah-a. So taking the time to think about the difference between melodic death metal, brutal death metal, and technical death metal would destroy your love for the genres.
Seriously, if you just stop thinking out of your ass, maybe you'll see it's not that hard.
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#11
Well, Metal is whatever you want it to be. As long as it's still, metal. Take a listen to Metallica, Pantera. It also depends on the genre too. IMO, there should be only Heavy Metal, Thrash Metal, Death Metal, Black Metal, and Speed/Power metal. Everything else, should be insignifigant(sp?). It's also, very easy to tell Metal apart from other genres.
#12
To answer the question of CFH5, metal cant really be catagorized as any one thing. What I'm saying is that just because a band sounds heavy doesn't mean it is metal. There's a lot more to it that you really just have to acquire by listening to it a lot. And yeah, there is a lot of diversity in metal, which makes it harder to classify what is and isnt metal.

What I notice is that most people making these threads havent explored a lot of metal, so it just takes time to understand the purpose of subgenres and catagorizing
#13
Quote by dead-fish
God damn it...

Subgenres are important, and very much relevant, and not confusing at all if you just took the time to actually think about it, instead of jumping ahead and going "omgZ der iz too moch sobjanrz".

There is practically nothing in common between Iron Maiden, Cannibal Corpse, Woods of Ypres, Meshuggah and unexpecT, yet they are all metal bands. Because this genre of music is so diverse, different bands need different genres, for the sake of keeping it in order.
While there are lots of useless categories, they are used so rarely, no one cares. And no, it doesn't matter that "iT al wuz jus callde MeTlle in teh 80's".

If you can't make out what is metal and what isn't by yourself, maybe you should go listen to it a little more.


I agree completely. Back in the day, there weren't really different styles of metal. Most metal had a common sound. Now-a-days, however, it's gotten very diverse, and if someone says "hi, I like bands like Emperor, Immortal, and Darkthrone. What other bands may I like?" If it weren't for the subgenres, nobody could say "oh, those are black metal bands." It makes finding new music you'll personally like much easier and better.
#14
so i really need to think about the difference between technical, brutal, and melodic death metal? It's all just death metal to me...I don't need to give each band it's own little place in the world...apparantly thats your job. I like to keep it simple because if you spend that much time separating and segregating genres then you lose touch with the music and you start focusing on the what genre it is and not what it's all about...the music not where it fits in. Just wait, tomorrow there will be a new genre for us to argue about.
#16
It's not that big of a deal to argue about it, and it's not confusing at all.

Sure, there are some subgenres that two bands fall under that I laugh at, but you DO need to know allot of different subgenres, so when someone asks me about one I can say their subgenre and they get a better idea on how that band plays ect..
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#17
Oy vey...

Ok, here's this crazy idea: you can listen to whatever you like, AND also know the name of the genre of music they belong to while loving it all the same! How? Because it doesn't conflict whatsoever!
How can you do this, you ask?
USE YOUR GOD-GIVEN BRAIN!

*reported* for thread becoming even less relevant than it already was.
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#18
because all this sh*t music came along (death metal) and changed everything. now every genre trying to be metal and trying to be all other types of metal.
#19
Quote by severed-metal
Well, Metal is whatever you want it to be. As long as it's still, metal. Take a listen to Metallica, Pantera. It also depends on the genre too. IMO, there should be only Heavy Metal, Thrash Metal, Death Metal, Black Metal, and Speed/Power metal. Everything else, should be insignifigant(sp?). It's also, very easy to tell Metal apart from other genres.


thats exactly what i think. i think those categories of metal should categorize it all. its ok to have some more general classes for metal, doesnt need to be so specific like melodic death metal and stuff. i could almost even say speed metal can go hand and hand with thrash.
and i guess i could listen to some other kinds of metal but once i listen to a few seconds of a lot of bands, i hate it and i turn it off. i hate death metal and **** like that so i dont listen to it. so forget this thread was ever hear i guess. honestly, it is a somewhat stupid argument. who cares about what genre is. listen to what you like and settle for it.

btw, has anyone listened to divine heresy? i think they are awesome. those vocals are about as harsh as i like in a band so again, if anyone has some recommendations to bands like them and pantera, im open to them. i want more to listen to.

and dead fish, are you always a dick?
Last edited by CowboyFromHell5 at Sep 19, 2007,
#20
Sub genres exist because metal has expanded in every direction over the past 15 years or so. Its not that peoples' classification of the music that has changed; its the music itself. But ya, sometimes people overdo it a little bit with the genres (ambient technical blackened death metal with both clean and harsh vocals and jazz solos!), its really a trivial problem if you take a moment to look past the all the long words and think about what they really mean.
#21
Quote by dead-fish

USE YOUR GOD-GIVEN BRAIN!


Seriously people, sub genres are not the anti Christ. If you used your mind and were not simple minded you would find that sub genres are a GIFT from the heavens and one of the many positive merits to metal.

Not all science is called "science", there is chemistry, biology, physiology, environmental, political, and so much more. The same goes for metal.
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#22
OK, here's my thing...what I get tired of is when you say the name of a band and some fu*kstick immediately thinks that is is necessary to blurt out what genre it is when it is not relevant. For example:
Fu*kstick: What are you listening to?
Me: blah-blah band
Fu*kstick: Oh thats ____-metal, ____-metal sucks!
Fill in the blanks yourself, This is what aggravates me about all the different genres. Yes there are needs for SOME genres, but i still think that there are far too many.

and someone tell Anthony that canadian beer...is not metal.
#23
Hey don't report this. This must be the smartest thread UG has ever seen. (Or at least it was). Seriously. Unseen of. And to WeR138: I don't what is your IQ if you can't point out which band is technical/brutal and which is melodic death metal. I'm not a fan of techincal/brutal but still I can pick a few bands that belong to that genre: Necrophagist and Nile for exemple.
And now to melodic death: In Flames, Dark Tranquility and Amorphis. It really isn't that difficult or at least you should have picked some other exemple than this technical-melodic thing. Like the subgenres of grindcore.
Last edited by Ozzy87_2 at Sep 19, 2007,
#24
CFH5, I'm really diggin divine heresy right now too....but I havent quite figured out what genre to put them in yet...lol
#25
IQ has nothing to do with figuring out genres, I faded away from death metal long before they started branching out into four billion sub-genres. I'm not the one who picked the death metal genres subject. To me death metal is death metal, black metal is black metal, hardcore is hardcore.
#26
Death metal? Hardcore? Isn't it all just music? Blaaah. F*ck the subgenres!

EDIT: My point: if you separate death metal and black metal out of metal then why can't you just separate melodic death and technical death out of death metal?
Last edited by Ozzy87_2 at Sep 19, 2007,
#27
Oh man.........It really isn't that hard to learn the sub genres, and associated bands, it doesn't take away from the music at all.

There's a stickied thread at the top of the first page that explains everything for you..ffs >:|
#28
See now your just taking my words out of context. Anyway, I got better things to do, like go figure out what bands fit in the new "Super-duper, techno-melodic-brutalightspeed, ballsweat, eyesbleed-anal-metal" Sub-Sub-Sub-genre. Good-night
"
#29
and I'll check out that sticky thread soon. Perhaps it will enlighten me. But don;t hold your breath.
#31
Quote by closertofreewil
HAHAHA

That was awesome.


2nded

"Obituary...is metal" and the laughs kept rolling

And to the threadstarter and other like minded individuals, no one's forcing you to know the sub genres, but it will make others respect you more, and ignorance is never a good thing.
#32
Quote by WeR138
and someone tell Anthony that canadian beer...is not metal.


BLASPHEMY!

Anyways, I am only certain of one thing and that is that Metal ist krieg. Just look at this thread and threads like this and you'll see.
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#33
wow, in order to gain respect I must learn the genres and sub-genres, and I'm just ignorant if I don't...interesting analogy. Must be an internet thing, cause last time I checked nobody respected anyone else on the internet because it's too easy to sit behind a keyboard and run your mouth. I don't respect any of you more just because you know all the genres and subgenres (damn I'm tired of typing those words), but maybe thats just because I'm ignorant.

and to rust'...I love Canadian beer, there is nothing metal about American beer either.
#34
ffs...

There's a reason why classifications exist. They are not there to make you feel all important when you run off a ten-word band classification, they are there to help describe a sound. Obviously you don't use that in a normal conversation, but to help people find what they want.

It's all metal, sure, but seeing as the styles are inherently different, they need to be acknowledged.

What technicolour was saying is that knowledge of the overall genre will get you more respect than ignorantly rambling on about how "genres are irrelevant" without knowledge of why they were formed.

This thread fails

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#35
^qft
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#36
Quote by Emenius Sleepus
ffs...

There's a reason why classifications exist. They are not there to make you feel all important when you run off a ten-word band classification, they are there to help describe a sound. Obviously you don't use that in a normal conversation, but to help people find what they want.

It's all metal, sure, but seeing as the styles are inherently different, they need to be acknowledged.

What technicolour was saying is that knowledge of the overall genre will get you more respect than ignorantly rambling on about how "genres are irrelevant" without knowledge of why they were formed.

This thread fails


Win.

/thread.